Lockheed Martin to pitch F-35 for our Indigenous aircraft carrier

[SATISH]

It's not likely that the Mig-29K will do well against future threats just down the road in the next decade or two.

Well It is more than enough to counter the threat that we are facing right now. We are not going to fight the NATO yet.

 

[civfanatic]

not important... self-delete

 

[Crusader53]

Are F-35s able to takeoff from STOBAR carriers?

Of course and so can the Rafale and Super Hornet. Remeber, all three were design as Naval Fighters from the start. Unlike the Mig-29K converted from a Landbase Type.

 

[Crusader53]

Well It is more than enough to counter the threat that we are facing right now. We are not going to fight the NATO yet.

You are very unwise to believe the Mig-29K is Superior to the J-10B or later Models of the Flanker Series. Let alone the forthcoming J-XX.

 

[Crusader53]

They are built to operate from such carriers. QE is STOBAR carrier...that is why the insistence on the F-35B to be completed soon.

For your information......

"STOBAR" stands for "Short Take Off But Arrested Recovery"

"STOVL" stands for "Short Take Off and Vertical Landing"

"CATOBAR" stands for "Catapult Assisted Take Off But Arrested Recovery"

In short the Queen Elizabeth Class (CVF) was never planned as a STOBAR Carrier.

 

[Rahul Singh]

You are very unwise to believe the Mig-29K is Superior to the J-10B or later Models of the Flanker Series. Let alone the forthcoming J-XX.

Oh really! Can you explain how?...................Are you into belief that Mig-29Ks Russian-Western avionics suite is inferior to that expected in J-10Bs? Or you believe that SD-10(which is expected to get abroad J-10Bs) is superior to R-77 or/and Derby? Or you believe that PL-9/11 is superior to R-73 coupled with TopSight E ? Or you believe that J-10Bs Dog Fight performance is superior to Mig-29Ks?

 

[Rahul Singh]

May be this(see pic below) is the reason(underlined in RED) why Navy has shown interest in F-35B/C only for the purpose of studying the capability rather than for the purpose of buying.

 

[Crusader53]

Oh really! Can you explain how?...................Are you into belief that Mig-29Ks Russian-Western avionics suite is inferior to that expected in J-10Bs? Or you believe that SD-10(which is expected to get abroad J-10Bs) is superior to R-77 or/and Derby? Or you believe that PL-9/11 is superior to R-73 coupled with TopSight E ? Or you believe that J-10Bs Dog Fight performance is superior to Mig-29Ks?

I am saying India would face superior number of Chinese Fighters and difference in capability is closer than some would like to believe.

Let's also not forget that the Chinese are good at stealing Military Harward and Russians, French, and Israeli have been a good provider over the years.

 

[Rahul Singh]

I am saying India would face superior number of Chinese Fighters and difference in capability is closer than some would like to believe.

I think we are talking about our Navy and Chinese navy carrier born fighters. So its better to stick to that. Presently PLAN doesn't have any carrier capability. But some say Chinese will be using Varyag as their first, reasonable and agreed. Question here is what fighters they will fly off her deck. As of now i don't think it can any other than J-11B or J-10B. Considering their size, i don't think at any given time anything above 30 fighters will be available on Chinese upgraded Varyag and to me this is not a big number forget the word overwhelming. So where is so called number advantage?

About Chinese making jets with greater capability: Well it is a possibility but as of now nothing they have built so far gives sufficient reasons to believe.

 

[Crusader53]

I think we are talking about our Navy and Chinese navy carrier born fighters. So its better to stick to that. Presently PLAN doesn't have any carrier capability. But some say Chinese will be using Varyag as their first, reasonable and agreed. Question here is what fighters they will fly off her deck. As of now i don't think it can any other than J-11B or J-10B. Considering their size, i don't think at any given time anything above 30 fighters will be available on Chinese upgraded Varyag and to me this is not a big number forget the word overwhelming. So where is so called number advantage?

About Chinese making jets with greater capability: Well it is a possibility but as of now nothing they have built so far gives sufficient reasons to believe.

Sorry, comparing 1 V 1 between Indian and Chinese Carriers is hardly the point. In real world the threats could come for the PLAAF, PLAN, and/or PAF. (likely all three) So, the Indian Navy has to be prepared to fight in such an enviroment.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Sorry, comparing 1 V 1 between Indian and Chinese Carriers is hardly the point. In real world the threats could come for the PLAAF, PLAN, and/or PAF. (likely all three) So, the Indian Navy has to be prepared to fight in such an enviroment.

Ok, if the point is how capable is Mig-29K in front of front-line fighters of PLAF and PAF, then where you will put Mig-29K on the table? And considering Navy buys F-35C what capability you see with our naval tactical aviation in front of those current and expected PLAAF,PLAN and PAF fighters? By the way while comparing do note that next batch of Mig-29Ks will be AESA fighters. Also do keep in mind that role of carriers in navy is not land attacks but is to give air umbrella to naval formation which is either blocking sea route or protecting one or going to unblock one imposed against Indian interests. And most of these sea routes are in IOR.

 

[sob]

On the F 35 the stealth and other features are tried and tested technologies, whereas with the PAK FGFA these technologies are under development. Also even if we get the first deliveries ( IN and the GOI agreeing to it) in 2020, there will be many upgrades which will be making the F 35 to be the front line fighter aircraft.

If the offer is really open to India, we should go for this aircraft.

 

[Patriot]

There are scores of problem with F-35 aka white elephant, Software, it's relevance & feasibility, price, delays, Engine & many more undisclosed one. In addition overall programme is under doubt. With F-35 US is doing mass fooling & huge business by developing threat perception in the mind of it's so called allies or scapegoats. It's just illusion projected by US for interoperability with this A/C is nothing just making surrender of it's allies to US hegemony on the name of security umbrella/friendship/allies etc as per the wishes of US.

I am sure it will be very costly to live with F-35.

 

[tarunraju]

No thank you. If they give us F-35 (for Navy), Pakistan will demand SuperHornet for its Air-Force, and that will be a very tough adversary against our Su-30 MKI/MMRCA fleet of Air Force.

Navy pilots are loving the MiG-29K. It's very affordable, and suits our neighbourhood best. The farthest we should be willing to go with carrier aircraft is Su-33.

F-35 for navy is both a waste of money, and gives Pakistan a free ride to its next best aircraft.

 

[captonjohn]

Sorry, comparing 1 V 1 between Indian and Chinese Carriers is hardly the point. In real world the threats could come for the PLAAF, PLAN, and/or PAF. (likely all three) So, the Indian Navy has to be prepared to fight in such an enviroment.

Agree on that point, in real warfare Indian navy has to phase all these forces simultaneously and hence must have greater capability as well as technological superiority. In any case of confrontation with Pak & chinese forces PAF, PLAF, PAN, PLAN all these forces would be major challenge hence F-35 is a good option for indian navy but I would prefer to have multiple navy fighters rather than going just for one type that is indian navy may have LCAN, F-35, Mig-29K so that all these can be used effectively against any threat.

 

[Crusader53]

It won't go past page three???

 

[kuku]

As a war fighting plane, a single squadron of F-35 C (catapult launching plane) will be in my opinion more effective for the Indian Navy than more squadrons of MiG-29K or F-18 super hornet, or rafale.

The reason is that the plane is developed by companies who have a lot of experience in designing planes which operate from aircraft carriers (very harsh ocean environment), and the primary role of our naval planes will be of fleet defence and limited strike, we will not be in a financial and geo political position to engage in hostilities far away from our nation in the foreseeable future.

The F-35 provides us with a plane that has high end electronics with radar signature management as a design priority, it will be ideal for fleet defence from incoming threats, it will also be a very good reconnaissance platform as it is able to degrade the performance of any early warning ship or land based radar (by its stealth along) and is quite a good electronic intelligence collecting assset (another design priority), and it can attack those radars along with many other limited targets from sea without giving away its position. Its size and engine fit in nicely into the small-medium carriers we are planning.

The F-35B version has the added burden of maintainability of the vertical lift mechanism which will require more man hours, however it will be able to perform from a lot of the currently planned ships, INS Vik. and IAC-1. It will also be a evolution of the current naval aviation tradition, which i think will make the navy understand the plane much better.

The problem is the time-line, INS Vik and IAC-1 will come out at times when the planes will not be around for purchase and a aircraft carrier without the aircrafts is just a large ship with lots of helicopters, a waste of money, so the Mig-29s have to be purchased, and once they are we can not retire them pre maturly as every rupee we spend on them is through a lot of careful consideration.

If possible i am still in favour of purchasing the F-35Cs for IAC-2 along with the required modifications done on the ship.

The F-35 does not need a lot of its thrust in the all internal weapons carrying stealth mode as there are limited external stores, hence i think it will have the thrust to take off from a ski jump and land with the arrested recovery mechanism, so even when the IAC-2 is in the docks getting repaired the F-35s will be able to perform from the IAC-1 or INS-Vik.

A single squadron will give the Navy the capacity to tremendously increase its capacity, the sheer investment required by our foes to counter them will be worth it.

I do not think the MiG-29K is not a good plane, i think if it performs well i the ocean atmosphere and is has a good availability rate, it will be very potent over the ocean performing as a fleet air defence plane, it has a good thrust to weight ratio, guided by early warning radars it can move very fast to shoot at any threat that the fleet might face, it has a wide variety of long ranged (up to 300 kms) anti shipping missiles to fire at any opposition fleet well outside their anti air measures.

However on strike missions it has the disadvantage of being a plane with radar signature management measures as an addition to the design as opposed to a design requirement, so it will be detected by enemy air and land based early warning radars and will have to fight its way to the target, which is a trouble as the small-medium aircraft carriers we have will have limited number of planes. Still with their induction we have ensured that nations like Pakistan have to burn more money and increase their air defence capability over the sea.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Are the people here in feeling that F-35s which may be supplied to Bharat will be same to those supplied to NATO? People should very well consider that Bharat is neither an ally of US nor it is in any military treaty with US. At no point of time without signing those humiliating agreements Bharat is going to get NATO comparable F-35s. And what good is F-35 if it is not as capable as of NATO and comes with all those strings and headache giving twists?

 

[mattster]

There are scores of problem with F-35 aka white elephant, Software, it's relevance & feasibility, price, delays, Engine & many more undisclosed one. In addition overall programme is under doubt. With F-35 US is doing mass fooling & huge business by developing threat perception in the mind of it's so called allies or scapegoats. It's just illusion projected by US for interoperability with this A/C is nothing just making surrender of it's allies to US hegemony on the name of security umbrella/friendship/allies etc as per the wishes of US.

I am sure it will be very costly to live with F-35.

Dude.....you are confusing the Yanks for Indians. There are very few US defense projects that are white elephants.
Even the ones that were canned by the Pentagon like the V22 Osprey are still supported by the comanders on the field.
Your comments are over the top.

There is a reason why every 5th gen fighter look like the F-35 and F-22.
As for price and delays, etc......every major new aircraft program has been delayed and the price escalates.

 

[kuku]

Are the people here in feeling that F-35s which may be supplied to Bharat will be same to those supplied to NATO? People should very well consider that Bharat is neither an ally of US nor it is in any military treaty with US. At no point of time without signing those humiliating agreements Bharat is going to get NATO comparable F-35s.

No it wont be, the trick is to make sure the plane performs to the performance you need out of it.

If say a military can not really guess what is being denied to it and just goes for whatever the US provides it, then that military does not even know what it requires the equipment for, and that military wont be much good in using a technology it does not even understand.

So the F-35 yes, if it satisfies the requirements that IN envisions for it.

And what good is F-35 if it is not as capable as of NATO and comes with all those strings and headache giving twists?

The F-35 is still a plane designed from the get go to have radar signature management as a priority, will be heads and shoulders above a 4th generation plane in that regard.

It was also built from the start to have modern electronics (along with the power, space and cooling they take), instead of them being a mid life add on.

The other option in the same time-frame that we have is that Russia comes up with a naval variant, in which case we should judge the performance of that variant over the seas with the performance figures we will have for the 35 and make changes to the carrier design accordingly.

Pure performance wise PAK-FA would be a beast, large as hell to accommodate everything one could dream of and with enough flexibility to fit whatever customised kit we can develop or buy, fast as hell to intercept even the fastest of the planes and dominate them in high and fast combat, and with room for enough missiles guided by modern sensors to target a lot of planes on its own, while hopefully denying them the same privilege through its design requirement (to have a low RCS).

Timing is the little devil though, if both F-35 and PAK-FA are not available, the navy will go on and purchase planes available (most likely MiG-29K).