Lights out folks

Energon

DFI stars
Ambassador
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
1,199
Likes
767
Country flag
This recent panic driven migrant exodus has presented itself as a great example proving my thesis, which is that the Indian ruling class has no interest in representing the people, it merely cares for itself.

The government after having failed at it's most rudimentary task... protecting its citizens by upholding the rule of law, conveniently diverted all blame to the panic mongers on the social media and have now embarked upon a quest to clamp down the -----!ng internet. Now what is so grossly wrong with this scenario other than the obvious attempt to divert the blame?

1. The most rudimentary problem which is the ineffectiveness of the police system remains untouched. The police is just as useless at protecting people today as it was before this event.

2. The "response" is actually curbing your freedom by "banning" (India's favorite word) you from a set of websites which they feel endangers their reputation.

So here again we see how the government instead of solving a problem automatically resorts to suppressing the freedom of all the citizens. Also what seems more logical? Improve the clearly inept police force (something they control entirely) or go on a wild goose chase hunting virtual digital signals on the internet?

Also how is it that random delinquents from all over the region can reach so many people on their cell phones but the overlord of a government can't? The Indian government never fails to boast about the phone usage statistics in India, yet they do not use the technology to issue alerts and public safety directions themselves.

So if you're an Indian citizen, ask yourself... what has your government done for you?
 

Beer

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2012
Messages
22
Likes
6
^typical american analysis, congress fails to deliver good governance and the whole indian political system is blamed for it, bush is the right person to rule over you people.

and govt banned sites which were spreading hate using morphed photos of tibetan earthquakes and passing them as muslim riot victims of mynamar and assam. it didnt endanger their reputation, it endangered public safety, i guess you failed to understand the difference between the two.
 

Nagraj

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Messages
804
Likes
254
@Energon nice analysis!
most of your points are right on the target.
 

Energon

DFI stars
Ambassador
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
1,199
Likes
767
Country flag
^typical american analysis, congress fails to deliver good governance and the whole indian political system is blamed for it, bush is the right person to rule over you people.
Re read the post, I didn't say the political system is faulty, the fault lies with the ruling class that occupies it. India's constitution is a fantastic representation of democratic literature. However the political class (who are far removed from the citizenry) have highjacked the very thing that is due to the people.
 

Energon

DFI stars
Ambassador
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
1,199
Likes
767
Country flag
I saw this article posted on another thread which has a very good explanation of the problem with governance.

Atanu Dey said:
Here we go again. The UPA Government of India wants to dictate once more what people should know and what information is OK for people to handle. It routinely blocks websites, prohibits or limits the use of mobile text messages, and is now threatening to block Twitter altogether. The Government's repression of the people is an old habit and it should not evoke any surprise or comment. Yet the fight for freedom of speech and expression is too important to life and liberty that one should not give up merely because one has been on a losing streak for centuries. We, the people, have to win that battle if we have to win the war for freedom.

The cornerstone of a democracy is an informed citizenry, if the notion of a democracy has to have any meaning that is internally consistent. If those who ultimately are in charge of determining how society is going to be ordered are not informed, then the result would be disastrous. Let's be very clear that in a democracy, ultimate power rests with the people and not the Government which is granted its legitimacy by the people. Unlike an authoritarian system where the people are ruled by a small gang of powerful overlords, a democracy is by definition rule by the people. A democracy cannot function if the people are prevented from knowing what's relevant for proper decision making.

If in a democracy the Government makes the claim that information should be carefully controlled, curated and censored for public consumption, it leads to an inconsistency. It means that the people are incompetent and incapable of handling information but yet somehow, even though not fully informed, are able to decide and choose who is to be entrusted with the important task of making public policy. Without the people having the freedom of speech and expression, without the freedom to be exposed to the widest range of ideas and opinions, democracy is a meaningless word parroted by ignorant demagogues for purely self-serving ends.

India is supposedly a democracy. But that is a contestable claim given the reality that Indians are ruled rather than being the rulers. Citizens have to get permission from a paternalistic Government for what they can read or write, see or hear. The British colonial Government of India quite understandably ensured that it controlled all avenues of information and that the people were not too well-informed. Colonial rule is like that. The situation does not appear to have changed after 1947. For sure, India got free of British colonial rule in 1947 but it is equally clear that those who rule India today are not free of the colonial mindset. It appears that Indians transitioned from one form of repressive Government to another.

Let me put it this way. India is not free today any more than it was under the British. India is under what I call British Raj 2.0. India's lack of freedom of expression is one very important component of the new Raj.

It is almost axiomatic that comprehensive freedom of the people and the general prosperity of the nation are necessary correlates. It is not an accident that all countries that are free are also the most prosperous. India and the US are frequently mentioned in the same breath as great democracies. Yet, the contrast is striking and heart-rending. India is a desperately poor country while the US is the richest and the most powerful nation in the world. Americans enjoy freedoms that are entirely missing to Indians. That suggests at least, if not prove, that Indians are not really free in any meaningful sense of the word.

It is no accident that the entire modern revolution in information and communications technologies was born in the USA. Not just the underlying hardware — the internet or the computers — but all the applications that enable its use — such as the world wide web, the email system, blogging, social networks such as Twitter, the whole set of tools that make people to people communications possible — all originated in the US. Social networking and communications lie at the roots of social capital, and social capital is what creates the wealth of nations. India's material poverty is certainly an outcome of the lack of social capital, and that is not being allowed to be created by India's repressive Governments.

Once again, I cannot but contrast India and the US in this context. The Constitution of the US guarantees freedom of expression. The so-called Bill of Rights, the first ten amendments to the US Constitution, was adopted in 1791. The First Amendment states, "(United States) Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

The Congress, the supreme legislative body of the federal government of the United States, is expressly prohibited by the First Amendment from putting limits on the freedom of speech or press. I have read and heard it repeated so frequently that I know it by heart. I cannot say the same thing about the first amendment to the Indian Constitution. In fact, I have not met anyone who has even read the Indian Constitution. Be that as it may, the First Amendment to the Indian Constitution empowers the Government to limit freedom of speech and expression. How is that for a contrast? And just by the way, you cannot memorise it either since it is long and written in such terms that no person without years of study can even understand it. I am certainly not going to quote it here but I challenge you to understand it and memorize it. I couldn't.

But let's get back to what the repressive UPA Government is attempting to do by throttling whatever little freedom of speech Indians have. The repressive (and I choose this word advisedly and repeat it lest we forget) UPA Government does not want people to know how disastrous their misgovernance has been for India. If Indians truly get to know about it, the Sonia Gandhi Congress-led UPA will not stand a chance of winning elections ever. In their desperation, they are now intensifying their war against the people.

It must be stated, in all fairness, that the previous Indian Governments have not been champions of freedom — including the freedom of speech and expression — either. What the present UPA Government is doing is in line with that but they have two reasons for their urgency in repressing information. First, they have misgoverned the most and therefore they have the most to lose if the public becomes fully aware. Therefore they have a desperate need to keep real information under control. If they had done a good job, they would not be running this scared.

Second, these days it is remarkably easy to store, disseminate and access information. Mobile phones and the internet have made it possible for people to circumvent the Government controlled traditional media channels and get past the Government propaganda. People are not stupid, although the Government may wish to believe it.

The UPA Government's haste in repressing social media more than anything else reveals its desperation. This is actually a good sign and tells us that there is still hope for India. When the Government is afraid of people, the people are most likely winning the war. Indians still have a chance at real freedom, something that has eluded them for so long. But first, we must understand what real freedom is. And that is what the Government is afraid of people finding out. Social media might create social capital India needs for freedom.

Let me end with a quote from that indefatigable champion of human freedom, Prof Milton Friedman. He wrote, "Freedom is not the natural state of mankind. It is a rare and wonderful achievement. It will take an understanding of what freedom is, of where the dangers to freedom come from. It will take the courage to act on that understanding if we are not only to preserve the freedoms that we have, but to realize the full potential of a truly free society."
 
Joined
Feb 16, 2009
Messages
29,876
Likes
48,566
Country flag
Incidence like this have become commonplace not only does the average citizen
suffer but it prevents any foreign investment from coming into the country in a big
way.
 

Beer

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2012
Messages
22
Likes
6
Re read the post, I didn't say the political system is faulty, the fault lies with the ruling class that occupies it. India's constitution is a fantastic representation of democratic literature.
Yes that's what you said, blaming the bad governance of one political party on the whole system. I see you started the first post whining about the caste system.typical uninformed moron, how is the power failure connected with the caste system? You illiterate americans know a few buzzwords and use them everytime an issue crops up, even when reuters reported on the power failure, americans on that news were blaming renewable energy like wind power for it, bunch of fools.

However the political class (who are far removed from the citizenry) have highjacked the very thing that is due to the people.
That's your misinformed conclusion. Only one party has a superiority complex and thinks they should rule India for eternity, that's the party which is the root cause of bad governance in India.
 

Beer

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2012
Messages
22
Likes
6
Perhaps this is also why many Indians have a misguided fascination with Hitler and idolize cult figures like Modi.
What rubbish, trying to tar the fair name of modi by associating it with htiler. Modi is a CM who has delivered on his promises of good governance. On one hand you demand good governance and when someone delivers it you call them names.

More i read your posts, i get a picture of a butthurt commie left behind whining. Are you a house mate of noam chomsky or what?
 

ant80

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2009
Messages
141
Likes
22
I actually agree with what you've said, Enegon. Please feel free to post more. Thanks.
 

K Factor

A Concerned Indian
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
1,316
Likes
147
@Beer
Usually, I don't target the messenger but the message, but in your case, since you do not know how to debate in a civil manner, I am going to be different.....

Beer said:
Yes that's what you said, blaming the bad governance of one political party on the whole system. I see you started the first post whining about the caste system.typical uninformed moron, how is the power failure connected with the caste system? You illiterate americans know a few buzzwords and use them everytime an issue crops up, even when reuters reported on the power failure, americans on that news were blaming renewable energy like wind power for it, bunch of fools.
The party in question has been chosen by us - and we form the system.
BTW - in UP, the largest state in India, caste is used as the biggest means to get votes before an election. No one talks about agendas or progress. The politicians (mind you, not just Congress, but SP, BSP as well) are only concerned about votes. If people get literate and knowledgeable, they will rise above all this and then the decades old proven formula of using casete based politics will not work - so, they keep them illiterate and backward since it helps. Its vote bank politics at its worst.


Beer said:
^typical american analysis, congress fails to deliver good governance and the whole indian political system is blamed for it, bush is the right person to rule over you people.

and govt banned sites which were spreading hate using morphed photos of tibetan earthquakes and passing them as muslim riot victims of mynamar and assam. it didnt endanger their reputation, it endangered public safety, i guess you failed to understand the difference between the two.
Have you even been through the list of banned URLs/accounts?
Twitter accounts blocked -
Shiv Aroor??
Panchjanya magazine??
Pravin Togadia??
What did have to do with Assam and Mumbai?

Also, you'd be amazed as to what Americans can say on FB or Twitter about the POTUS and still, they wouldn't block you on FB or Twitter. Get real and get your head out .

Bengal, Cartoon incident, ring a bell? So its not just Congress.

Beer said:
Brandon J. Raub, Former Marine, Detained After Anti-Government Facebook Postings

Now let's see what you got say about this? Now who is the hitler here, what happened to freedom of expression and all that stuff. Now let's see you whine about Obama and his govt.
How is that relevant here? Although I replied to your earlier post on a similar line, on this thread we are discussing what is ailing India, and this is not for pointing out that that since US is also suffering from the same, we will not fix it .

BTW - he mentioned "Sharpen my axe; I'm here to sever heads." This was done as a precaution for public safety and he is currently under psychiatric evaluation.

Beer said:
That's your misinformed conclusion. Only one party has a superiority complex and thinks they should rule India for eternity, that's the party which is the root cause of bad governance in India.
I find it strange that no one except you finds the conclusions or the points raised as being mis-informed. Learn to bury pride (in your case, pseudo-nationalism) and treat criticism as a way forward for improvement.
 
Last edited:

KS

Bye bye DFI
Senior Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2010
Messages
8,005
Likes
5,758
The problem with India is, things that are meant to be a means to an end have become ends in themselves.
 

blank_quest

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 4, 2012
Messages
2,119
Likes
926
Country flag
The only way to change India is to change our mentality of third class Indian into a Classy Indian
 

ani82v

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2012
Messages
1,006
Likes
707
Country flag
@Energon

I have been reading your comments with quite some interest. Not only your arguments are persuasive but passionate too. Atanu Day has rightly said the informed citizenry is cornerstone of democracy and we lack it abysmally. People are taken for a ride and are short changed. Politicians exploit the divisions in the society in the name of religion, caste, language and what not. Supposedly, Civil society should be active in order to bring change in the systems and institutions that serves us. I believe institutions evolve over the period of time but in case of India it is at very low pace. At the core of problem is lack of active citizenry. People who are better off are not bothered much.

In the West, people get it right because these ideals of freedom, justice, equality, accountability of Govt evolved over a period of centuries at various stages. Thats where enlightenment happened. Not in India. All these ideals, in the form they are perceived in the West are alien to India. If India have to achieve this, it has to do a lot of more harder and I don't think it would be even remotely possible.

Sometimes, I feel only by some major shock and awe would Indians realize that there is a problem which can not get solved on its own.
 

Beer

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2012
Messages
22
Likes
6
@Beer
Usually, I don't target the messenger but the message, but in your case, since you do not know how to debate in a civil manner, I am going to be different......
How come i get blamed while the guy who started this thread whining about caste system blaming that for the power blackout goes scot free. Should i start a thread blaming the drought on the caste system too. Atleast try to be neutral even though you feel supporting your ideological comrade.

The party in question has been chosen by us - and we form the system.
Previously it was ballot box stuffing and now its electronic vote machine rigging, and cash for votes when the govt loses majority. No sir we dont elect the central govt, it elects itself.


BTW - in UP, the largest state in India, caste is used as the biggest means to get votes before an election.
So what? In america religion is always an issue, Just check the amount of analysis going on to prove obama is a muslim.

You can be casteist but still give good governance like mayawati, you can be casteist and convert your state to jungle raj like mulayam is doing to UP.

No one talks about agendas or progress. The politicians (mind you, not just Congress, but SP, BSP as well) are only concerned about votes. If people get literate and knowledgeable, they will rise above all this and then the decades old proven formula of using casete based politics will not work - so, they keep them illiterate and backward since it helps. Its vote bank politics at its worst.
I agree to an extent with you, but clubbing the 3 parties with different agendas is unfair, SP maybe closer in agenda to congress but BSP is totally different, it genuinely tried to develop UP.

Have you even been through the list of banned URLs/accounts?
Twitter accounts blocked -
Shiv Aroor??
Panchjanya magazine??
Pravin Togadia??
What did have to do with Assam and Mumbai?
I only support temporary banning of inflammatory facebook and youtube pages with morphed videos and photos which were used to incite violence.

Banning of twitter accounts is a ploy to censor people's voice, its typical of congress to misuse laws to settle their personal vendetta. I dont support such tactics.

Also, you'd be amazed as to what Americans can say on FB or Twitter about the POTUS and still, they wouldn't block you on FB or Twitter. Get real and get your head out .
They arrested him and now are trying to pump him with drugs to make him a happy slave obedient to his master. Is that how you want GOI to treat those who disagree with their policies? you are the one sticking your head in the wrong place.

Bengal, Cartoon incident, ring a bell? So its not just Congress.
I dont support such blatant censorship which has nothing to do with public safety.

How is that relevant here? Although I replied to your earlier post on a similar line, on this thread we are discussing what is ailing India, and this is not for pointing out that that since US is also suffering from the same, we will not fix it .
How did the caste system cause the power outage in north india? If he is gonna whine about India using such buzzwords which have no relevance to the topic isnt it relevant to question him on it?

BTW - he mentioned "Sharpen my axe; I'm here to sever heads." This was done as a precaution for public safety and he is currently under psychiatric evaluation.
So you agree with me then that it's okay to censor when public safety is involved, so why not censor when facebook and youtube posts were being used to demonise north east people which caused their mass exodus in panic, keep in mind over 30,000 went back to north east fearing violence after ramzan.

I find it strange that no one except you finds the conclusions or the points raised as being mis-informed. Learn to bury pride (in your case, pseudo-nationalism) and treat criticism as a way forward for improvement.
Stop supporting stupids or you will be seen as one. I am in no mood to be lectured by some guy who abuses India based on his ill-informed views about us. try to think for yourself and dont get lectured by ignorant people, its just another form of mental slavery.
 

Energon

DFI stars
Ambassador
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
1,199
Likes
767
Country flag
@ Beer


At first I thought your misplaced sense of nationalism was getting in the way of rational debate. But a second look at your posts made me realize that it wasn't nationalism, but rather the total inability to critically read and comprehend written passages that stops you from contributing anything constructive.
Beer said:
More i read your posts, i get a picture of a butthurt commie left behind whining. Are you a house mate of noam chomsky or what?
Really? This is what you got out of the posts? Clearly the entire message of this thread has escaped you.

What I really like to see is differing opinions which can then be followed up by debate. However if there's a fundamental problem is basic comprehension then there's no real debate to be had.

It would be great if you could contribute toward this debate however you either need to present coherent and relevant arguments and engage in proper debate or refrain from littering this thread. All other posters here spend time and mental energy to write their responses; and the worst thing is for well thought out posts to get lost in a barrage of garbage.
 
Last edited:

Energon

DFI stars
Ambassador
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
1,199
Likes
767
Country flag
It is interesting to note the recent arrest of Aseem Trivedi the anti corruption comic artist that was triggered by government cronies. Here again we see the ruling class's blatant disregard for citizens and their rights.

What is encouraging of course is the fact that there's a public outcry which will eventually see him released. However the point is that the political class is still brazen enough to crack down on their critics with such impunity.
 

Energon

DFI stars
Ambassador
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
1,199
Likes
767
Country flag
Wanted to make a note of the strikes over the new reforms allowing FDI in the retail sector.

This is another excellent example supporting my thesis. Make the following observations:

1. The opposition party (BJP) is supposedly a party of reform and their ultimate cult figure is a proponent of aggressive FDI schemes in his state. Yet this very party is doing everything in its power to block the reform knowing very well that the good outweighs the bad. This shows how the ruling class is willing to sacrifice the good of the people for their own squabbles. This is also why many people who think all of India's problems are due to a particular political party are wrong** (see below).

2. The first response theory. So what again was the first response here? Yup you guessed right, a bandh. Basically anything in India results in complete cessation of economic activity. Here again the main perpetrator is the political class. These guys have no qualms in fighting their political battles at the expense of the entire society. Moreover they exploit the poor by pretending to be on their side but actually end up making them poorer.
Most vegetable merchants and small business owners depend upon their daily wages to sustain themselves. The professional middle class may not depend upon daily wages but their economic activity is the source of taxes which sustains the state and its poor. Yet the opposition incites these crippling protests which brings all economic activity to a stand still thereby hurting the very people they are pretending to represent. **Now those who think this is the fault of a particular political party are wrong, because even if the tables were turned and the current opposition was in power the other would do the same. This isn't about a party, it's about the entire political class.

3. But let's not forget that the people themselves are also at fault:
Small businesses and independent vendors who are made to believe that they will lose their livelihood fail to realize that absolutely nothing has changed for them in numerous decades. These people who were making a day to day living while residing in shanty slums are doing exactly the same thing today. With the exception of a cellphone in their hand there has been no significant improvement in their lives. I have been going to India for decades now and have as yet to see any improvement in the local markets. They are just as decrepit, unhygienic and disorganized as Ive remembered them for decades. There has been virtually no progress or induction of technology to increase productivity and improve wages. The Indian people are willing to fall for this "bandh" horsecrap without thinking why a nation as powerful as theirs still loses over half its produce to rot due to the lack of basic technology.

Liberalization leads to increased competition which requires adaptation and advancement and its overall benefits are there for everyone to see, yet Indians keep themselves back by tripping over their own feet. If anyone were truly interested in protecting the small vendors they would help organize them, improve the infrastructure they rely upon (local markets, equipment they use to carry their goods), enable more credit to small business owners to modify their business plan etc. Clearly there's none of that, in fact the remedy is to starve them under the guise of a "protest" in their name. Why? Because the entire cohort of people involved in politics has no interest whatsoever in improving the lives of the people they supposedly represent.
 

ant80

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2009
Messages
141
Likes
22
I'd like to add something on point 3. In order for things to improve, change is necessary. Change is coming, but change is always scary. The Indian government, or some other organization should step up to explain to the people that continuing with the same failed policies will result in the same lifestyle that leads to the decades, you mention, of stagnation of the poor. Some social movement must fill in the void, as you have suggested in previous posts, but such a movement does not exist. Yet.
 

Energon

DFI stars
Ambassador
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Messages
1,199
Likes
767
Country flag
I'd like to add something on point 3. In order for things to improve, change is necessary. Change is coming, but change is always scary. The Indian government, or some other organization should step up to explain to the people that continuing with the same failed policies will result in the same lifestyle that leads to the decades, you mention, of stagnation of the poor. Some social movement must fill in the void, as you have suggested in previous posts, but such a movement does not exist. Yet.
You are right, change is critical for any society that aspires to succeed/ prosper. But when things change for the populace, people who rule also risk losing their hold over power. In Indian cities, the working poor who subsist hand to mouth are after all the pawns for politicians to exert pressure upon their rivals (by political pressure I mean disruptive acts of sabotage such as the one we see here). If these people were included in the economic activity of the city and suddenly started reaping its benefits then they are unlikely to disrupt its flow when politicians want them to.

However IMO the reason there's no change in India isn't because the Indian government has failed to educate the people in the merits of change. Rather the stagnation is because the Indian government has always worked very hard to mislead the underclass into believing that change is bad and the best thing for them is to maintain the status quo through self destructive acts. Remember, the people who always initiate these useless bandhs and strikes are politicians themselves. Consider this, you the middle class are the lifeline of vegetable vendors and small shopkeepers. Theoretically if someone were to try and poach your patronage the current vendors would go out of their way to adopt a new business model and probably aim to accommodate you through superior personalized service (because that is something their new competitor cannot offer). Yet, politicians have convinced them that the best course of action is to disrupt your life by paralyzing the city. So now both of you are unhappy and shady politicians have actually managed to turn the symbiotic system which connects the two groups against each other.

The role of a social movement isn't to fill a void left by the government, but rather a counter measure to dismantle the government's insidious activities. This is exactly why the responsibility of convincing the poor of the benefits of change falls upon you, the middle class, not the political class or any other government controlled organization, because they are busy trying to convince them otherwise.

It is obvious that not everyone will go to supermarkets, vast swaths of the people such as the lower middle class, the elderly and migrants will still rely upon small scale vendors who provide personalized services. So just think, what if business schools were to take up the challenge, and as part of their coursework organize small scale vendors, provide them with a new business plan, borrow capital to refurbish local markets and design an efficient computerized wholesale sourcing system to keep the small scale industry competitive? This is entirely possible and it would technically count as a social movement.
 

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top