LCA Tejas vs JF-17 Thunder

[suny6611]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

hope this is true :thumb:

no it is partial true.... the jags assemble line is to be changed to tejas line.... as & when all the upgrades for jags r through. but 1500 cr has been approved for a seprate tejas mk2 assemble line

the pvt line was considered but was not approved as secrecy of all the components can not be possible at a pvt plant.

 

[sgarg]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

And i thought it was replacement for mig 21 which is primarily used for dog fights ?

LCA Tejas is a completely different aircraft compared to Mig-21.

Why are you so impressed with JF-17. I see no reason to be impressed.

 

[sgarg]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

no it is partial true.... the jags assemble line is to be changed to tejas line.... as & when all the upgrades for jags r through. but 1500 cr has been approved for a seprate tejas mk2 assemble line

the pvt line was considered but was not approved as secrecy of all the components can not be possible at a pvt plant.

I think a private line for Mark II is still under consideration.

 

[rvjpheonix]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

Stop spouting BS. You have no idea about the maneuverability of tejas or jf 17. You are comparing what tejas did at ioc in Aero India to a inducted jf 17. The AoA has since then been increased and I am sure that will make an improvement in performance. And Tejas is a low wing loading fighter as compared to high wing loading configuration of jf 17. This dictates that the jf 17 should haeve a higher STR at sea level. But when it comes to ITR the tejas will turn faster. And as the altitude increases the difference becomes more apparent. Due you think that the f 16 has a turn rate of 18 degrees at 30 k feet. As your altitude increases the amount of lift available reduces which is important for sustaining a turn. However the tejas has bigger wings creating more lift so it implies though the tejas is afffected it wont be affected as much as the jf 17. It should also have a better climb and roll rates due to being a relaxed static stability fighter unlike jf 17. so instead of horizontal maneuvers the tejas pilot will opt for vertical maneuvers where he has the advantage. so there goes your bubble about it not being able to turn.
THE TWR rates should be similar to that of jf 17. Top speed is useless in combat. There is no way jf 17 will win a bvr fight. Tejas is superior to the jf 17 in almost all aspects.

 

[rvjpheonix]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

Has the max g limit of the tejas been made public yet.?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

Comparison between MIG-21+++ ( Bision 3G++ Upgrade ) with Tejas MK1

---------->

Full Glass Cockpit: No (1HUD+1MFD+limited HOTAS+HMCS)
LCA: Yes (3MFD, HUD, full HOTAS, Helmet Mounted Display - better than cueing sight)

LCA -far more modern ejection seat, the Martin Baker Mk16 as compared to that on the Bison which is the KM-1M, one that is unchanged from the Bis.

Radar: Bison - Kopyo (range limited to 57Km for 5SqMtr, limited scan angles thanks to Bison nose)
LCA: Hybrid MMR - 100 plus Km for a 5 sq meter target, wide variety of modes, scan angles of the order of 60 degrees

EW suite: Bison - Tarang MK1, external jammer which if carried, reduces number of pylons (already limited to 5, by 1)
LCA: Integrated internal suite, with both RWR & jamming capability

Litening pod for the LCA; not on the Bison

Propulsion: LCA - modern more reliable powerplant with FADEC
Bison: Older gen powerplant, no FADEC, issues with reliability and maintenance

LCA: FBW for carefree handling and pilot friendlyness; has FBW dictate maneuvering limits with loads, stores, and other criteria preventing errors
Bison: No

LCA: Special measures for reduced signature in design itself - canopy, airframe, use of specific materials, Y shaped intakes displaced for signature reduction
Bison: Original MiG-21 design, only RAM possible, comes with weight penalty, important as weapons add radar signature

LCA: Able to carry dedicated LDP/Special store on dedicated pylon
Bison: No

LCA: Has 7+1 pylons per design
Bison: 4+1, limiting flexibility

Payload: Edge to LCA even using 6400 Kg empty aircraft weight (~900 kg over original 5.5T) and 10.5T, empty weight with 2R73E missiles included. Has payload of 2.5T for 5 remaining pylons

Growth potential: Edge to LCA - items such as Oxygen generating equipment being included, plus In Flight Refuelling

Stores flexibility: LCA has 1760 standard avionics fit allowing for western, Indian, Russian weapons
Bison: No

Avionics: LCA has provision for datalink, has modern avionics, computers etc
Bison: Limited upgrade, few of these are included in current aircraft

Systems: LCA designed around test kits, with simulators for crew
Bison: Limited by original MiG-21 design, only part task training

Combat Radius : Tejas +500Kms, Bision limited to under 300kms ..

---

With 7 pylons and more fuel capability + even disregarding IFR on the way, its a joke to say LCA == MiG-21 as some folks have been pushing on ..

sir there must be good reasons if veterans like air marshal naik calling tejas mig 21++ at best ?

 

[sgarg]

JF-17 is a useless design. It is basically an attempt to modernize Mig-21. It does not fit into any modern class of fighter aircrafts.

LCA Tejas is absolutely fine in its slot of small multi-role aircraft. It will have limitations in fighter role but it will be effective in strike role. A mixed package of LCA Tejas will be far more effective compared to a mixed package of JF-17.

The only significant force is Pakistan Army. Pakistan Navy is no match for Indian Navy. PAF is no match for IAF. IAF will overpower PAF in a matter of 3-4 days. This is the brutal reality. The issue is if Pakistan gets reinforcements from its allies. This is a question which cannot be reliably answered. If Pakistan fights stand alone, then its chances of success are virtually nil.

 

[Kyubi]

JF-17 is a useless design. It is basically an attempt to modernize Mig-21. It does not fit into any modern class of fighter aircrafts.

LCA Tejas is absolutely fine in its slot of small multi-role aircraft. It will have limitations in fighter role but it will be effective in strike role. A mixed package of LCA Tejas will be far more effective compared to a mixed package of JF-17.

The only significant force is Pakistan Army. Pakistan Navy is no match for Indian Navy. PAF is no match for IAF. IAF will overpower PAF in a matter of 3-4 days. This is the brutal reality. The issue is if Pakistan gets reinforcements from its allies. This is a question which cannot be reliably answered. If Pakistan fights stand alone, then its chances of success are virtually nil.

What bout reports of IAF squadron strength dropping to 25 and LCA Tejas won't be used for combat roles in any time soon , MK2 again will take few more yrs , same with rafael , don't know when they will sign the deal,...... Looks quite gloomy.... Wish your words come true @sgarg

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

sir there must be good reasons if veterans like air marshal naik calling tejas mig 21++ at best ?

Sir,

the same veteran air marshal has said that after FOC , tejas is equal to gripen .

now you can stop worrying.

But another veteran Air marshal matheswaran is saying now we need canards, twin engine on tejas!?!?!. And he says tejas is far below mig-21 and should be wound up.

Now you can start worrying.

Now the award winning test pilot of tejas Suneeth krishna says that tejas mk1 in its present config is "at least equal to mirage-2000 even after 45 million dollar per plane upgrade". And another veteran NTSE chief pervez Khokhar has said that tejas mk1 is far above mig-21 capacity even with in the limited Ioc envelope and in fact superior to mirage-2000 in "key respects".

Now you can stop worrying.

India is a democratic country and diversity in opinions are quite naturally. SO you can believe the current air chief who has categorically stated that tejas is a welcome addition in IAF fighting capability and satisfy yourself.

 

[Saumyasupraik]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

Sir, you might have forgotten that one Rafale have limited (12) hard points to carry AAM, whereas LCA has 7 hard points. So 4 LCA will carry 28 AAMs versus 12 AAMs of 1 Rafale.

Moreover, 90% surface area of LCA is made up of composite materials. Thus LCA is hard to detect. By the time Rafale radar detects LCA, it would be staring at the R-73 released by 4 LCA.

Hence 1 Rafale doesn't stand any chance against 4 LCA.

Rafale can carry 8 AAMs, 4xMICA + 4xMeteor with 3 drop tanks or 10 AAMs, 6xMICA + 4xMeteor with 2 drop tanks.

4 LCAs can carry 16 AAMs total because they need 3 Drop Tanks each because of less internal fuel and AAM is not compatible with the centreline station.

Also the 4 Meteor missiles are more capable than Derby and Astra for the Tejas.

Sticking missiles and fuel tanks on it wouldn't make it very stealthy.

 

[Kharavela]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

Rafale can carry 8 AAMs, 4xMICA + 4xMeteor with 3 drop tanks or 10 AAMs, 6xMICA + 4xMeteor with 2 drop tanks.

4 LCAs can carry 16 AAMs total because they need 3 Drop Tanks each because of less internal fuel and AAM is not compatible with the centreline station.

Also the 4 Meteor missiles are more capable than Derby and Astra for the Tejas.

Sticking missiles and fuel tanks on it wouldn't make it very stealthy.

I agree to your point that carrying full load of armaments does compromises stealth, but that would also applicable for Rafale. Till date, Rafale has not proved extraordinary dogfight tactics in any theatre it has been involved.

I am yet to verify your claims regarding armament store. Please share source of your claims.

My point was 1 Rafale is no match for 4 Tejas within their radius of action in any dogfight scenario.

 

[Saumyasupraik]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

I agree to your point that carrying full load of armaments does compromises stealth, but that would also applicable for Rafale. Till date, Rafale has not proved extraordinary dogfight tactics in any theatre it has been involved.

I am yet to verify your claims regarding armament store. Please share source of your claims.

My point was 1 Rafale is no match for 4 Tejas within their radius of action in any dogfight scenario.

What about armament stores exactly?

 

[Lone Ranger]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

Their are many kind of people around this thread, This post is for the type who make absurd comparisons between MIG-21 ++ with Tejas MK1 without credible research .. >>

I suggest members to copy this post whenever such retarded commentary passed down in this very thread to stop further derailment, Thank You !

==========================>>

Comparison between MIG-21+++ ( Bision 3G++ Upgrade ) with Tejas MK1

---------->

Full Glass Cockpit: No (1HUD+1MFD+limited HOTAS+HMCS)
LCA: Yes (3MFD, HUD, full HOTAS, Helmet Mounted Display - better than cueing sight)

LCA -far more modern ejection seat, the Martin Baker Mk16 as compared to that on the Bison which is the KM-1M, one that is unchanged from the Bis.

Radar: Bison - Kopyo (range limited to 57Km for 5SqMtr, limited scan angles thanks to Bison nose)
LCA: Hybrid MMR - 100 plus Km for a 5 sq meter target, wide variety of modes, scan angles of the order of 60 degrees

EW suite: Bison - Tarang MK1, external jammer which if carried, reduces number of pylons (already limited to 5, by 1)
LCA: Integrated internal suite, with both RWR & jamming capability

Litening pod for the LCA; not on the Bison

Propulsion: LCA - modern more reliable powerplant with FADEC
Bison: Older gen powerplant, no FADEC, issues with reliability and maintenance

LCA: FBW for carefree handling and pilot friendlyness; has FBW dictate maneuvering limits with loads, stores, and other criteria preventing errors
Bison: No

LCA: Special measures for reduced signature in design itself - canopy, airframe, use of specific materials, Y shaped intakes displaced for signature reduction
Bison: Original MiG-21 design, only RAM possible, comes with weight penalty, important as weapons add radar signature

LCA: Able to carry dedicated LDP/Special store on dedicated pylon
Bison: No

LCA: Has 7+1 pylons per design
Bison: 4+1, limiting flexibility

Payload: Edge to LCA even using 6400 Kg empty aircraft weight (~900 kg over original 5.5T) and 10.5T, empty weight with 2R73E missiles included. Has payload of 2.5T for 5 remaining pylons

Growth potential: Edge to LCA - items such as Oxygen generating equipment being included, plus In Flight Refuelling

Stores flexibility: LCA has 1760 standard avionics fit allowing for western, Indian, Russian weapons
Bison: No

Avionics: LCA has provision for datalink, has modern avionics, computers etc
Bison: Limited upgrade, few of these are included in current aircraft

Systems: LCA designed around test kits, with simulators for crew
Bison: Limited by original MiG-21 design, only part task training

Combat Radius : Tejas +500Kms, Bision limited to under 300kms ..

---

With 7 pylons and more fuel capability + even disregarding IFR on the way, its a joke to say LCA == MiG-21 as some folks have been pushing on various forums ..
@ersakthivel, You can add if some thing being missed here ..

Credit : [MENTION=693] rohitvats from BR ..

Nice comparison :thumb: although off topic for this thread , can you do similar detailed comparison between jf 17 and lca mk1

 

[prohumanity]

It seems like everyone bullshits when it comes to stats - China, India, Pak.

Calling Tejas a 4.5 generation aircraft is really a stretch. The Rafale and Eurofighter are 4.5.
The gripen NG maybe.

in my mind both the JF-17 and LCA are 3.5 gen. Both the JF-17 and LCA have airframes that look very basic.

This sales pitch for US fighters is not going to succeed as they are extremely pricey and marginally better. In real combat...a risk taking abilities and determination and skill of pilots can neutralize this marginal technological advantage. Taliban/ISIS are fighting with damn knives...what technology can be lower than that ?
My point is that in real combat situations, many other factors matter..not just some technological superiority.

 

[sgarg]

What bout reports of IAF squadron strength dropping to 25 and LCA Tejas won't be used for combat roles in any time soon , MK2 again will take few more yrs , same with rafael , don't know when they will sign the deal,...... Looks quite gloomy.... Wish your words come true @sgarg

How?

Last I counted 9 sq of Su-30, 12 sq of Mig-21, 5 sq of Mig-27, 5 sq of Jaguar, 3 sq of Mig-29 and 3 sq of Mirage-2000.

This totals to more than 25.

Even when all non-upgraded Mig-21Bis and Mig-21M are retired, the squadrons will be more than 25. You forget IAF is getting 15 Su-30 per year. This is roughly one squadron as Su-30 is only 16 aircraft per squadron.

The year 2015 will see half a squadron of LCA Tejas delivery.

 

[Kyubi]

How?

Last I counted 9 sq of Su-30, 12 sq of Mig-21, 5 sq of Mig-27, 5 sq of Jaguar, 3 sq of Mig-29 and 3 sq of Mirage-2000.

This totals to more than 25.

Even when all non-upgraded Mig-21Bis and Mig-21M are retired, the squadrons will be more than 25. You forget IAF is getting 15 Su-30 per year. This is roughly one squadron as Su-30 is only 16 aircraft per squadron.

The year 2015 will see half a squadron of LCA Tejas delivery.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...fighter-squadrons/article1-1299318.aspx /URL]

 

[Lone Ranger]

http://www.hindustantimes.com/indi... have read this detail in some other article.

 

[Kyubi]

Whole doing this audit 195 grounded sukhoi su 30 mki were not accounted , have read this detail in some other article.

Well I wasn't aware of it, thanks for correcting me

 

[Lone Ranger]

Well I wasn't aware of it, thanks for correcting me

you are welcome here is abp news tweet regarding same , Parliament comittee report gives wrong strngth of Air Force as 25 squadrons #IAF clarifies hs 34 BC Khanduri is head of comittee @abpnewstv

 

[roma]

What bout reports of IAF squadron strength dropping to 25 and LCA Tejas won't be used for combat roles in any time soon , MK2 again will take few more yrs , same with rafael , don't know when they will sign the deal,...... Looks quite gloomy.... Wish your words come true @sgarg

How?
Last I counted 9 sq of Su-30, 12 sq of Mig-21, 5 sq of Mig-27, 5 sq of Jaguar, 3 sq of Mig-29 and 3 sq of Mirage-2000.
This totals to more than 25.
Even when all non-upgraded Mig-21Bis and Mig-21M are retired, the squadrons will be more than 25. You forget IAF is getting 15 Su-30 per year. This is roughly one squadron as Su-30 is only 16 aircraft per squadron.
The year 2015 will see half a squadron of LCA Tejas delivery.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/indi... we can actually catch up and edge ccp-china