Know Your 'Rafale'

smestarz

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In RFP it was mentioned very clearly that HAL has to be lead integrator and all the participating companies had signed that RFP including Dassault, and after they were declared L1 they started to have problems about HAL and wanted to change

Totally BS !
HAL is the sole to be blamed. But every body knows that.....
 

Sancho

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Why am I not surprised about Dassault? Well, its new dirty trick is to hire snake oil salesmen to make outrageous claims about Rafale...
You have to differ here! On the one hand you have a vendor that has proven to be guided by greed and according to reports from the UAE and Belgium by arrogance.

But on the other hand you have one of the best 4.5th gen fighters, that was the first to be designed with priority on passive sensors and EW, that had unique weapon capabilities and good flight performance.


In RFP it was mentioned very clearly that HAL has to be lead integrator and all the participating companies had signed that RFP including Dassault, and after they were declared L1 they started to have problems about HAL and wanted to change
To be more precise, after they teamed up with Reliance (in 2012) the problems started, because then Dassault wanted to shift work share away, which is against the RFP. Dassault only complained about the RFP clauses at a later stage, after the MoD and HAL settled the work share issue. But Dassault kept making up issues, which stalled the whole negotiations for 3 years, till it was cancelled.
 
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Sancho

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Having been developed 20 years later than Rafale the F-35 certainly has all the advantages against it.
The F18 block 3 is the latest SH standard and will be deployed around 2019. Does that mean it has "all the advantages" against an F117 that was developed decades ago?
Of course not, because you have to compare RCS to RCS, sensors to sensors and flight performance to flight performance, to see where the advantages are.
 

BON PLAN

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Dassault was earlier eyeing the bigger pie of 126+63 +57 and then the pie became smaller 36 and maybe 57, but maybe as time goes the pie might be more smaller and Dassault in its afterthought might wonder "what the hell went wrong?" and if they need some wisdom then they should know that its not a sellers market anymore, not for India which earlier had options of Russian or french planes.
Don't worry Bro,
The IAF and indian pilots are so impressed by the plane that it's absolutely evident there will be at least another batch of 36.
Some indian forumers on this thread or another say at the end it could reach 250+. As for my self, I think the total will be between 108 (3x36) and 180 (5x36) just for IAF.

We could read since some days that the single engine purchase project is dead. If it's real, Tejas and Rafale will received more push.

IN is another thing. Probably more political.
 

BON PLAN

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India selected Rafale in Jan 2012 and therfore was the first country to do so, the only reason that no deal was fixed, was Dassaults deviation from their own words and agreements, otherwise we could have seen Rafales in India already and the production line started. So blame Dassaults cheap character and poor business habits, like the UAE did and like it gets more and more evident in Belgium too:


https://www.airrecognition.com/inde...french-offer-appears-increasingly-doomed.html
It's the french government that decided to answer like that. Not Dassault.

A kind of initiative to promote the buy european act.

The belgium RFP was seen as too F35 oriented, so a new but dangerous other way was decided by the french Gvt.

Good? not good? just wait and see.
 

BON PLAN

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To be more precise, after they teamed up with Reliance (in 2012) the problems started, because then Dassault wanted to shift work share away, which is against the RFP.
NO.
Dassault tried to found other subcontractors because the HAL cost labour to produce Rafale in India was higher than those in france (HAL takes the french operating hour and multiplyed it by 2.7 ...).
You can't see that before dealing with HAL.

SO STOP SAYING DASSAULT DIDN'T DO ANYTHING TO WIN ITS FIRST (and major) EXPORT CAMPAIGN.
 

Sancho

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NO.
Dassault tried to found other subcontractors because the HAL cost labour to produce Rafale in India was higher than those in france
Nonsense, the one has nothing to do with the other! Dassault according to the RFP was free to choose subcontractors to divert "production work". But the integration work had to be done by HAL, which was known since 2007. Dassault tried to move the integration away from HAL to increase the works share of Reliance, that was suppose to build the wings and then send it to HAL.
The cost issue of HAL was only based on their "integration work" and not of subcontractors, nor has it anything to do with the RFP clauses that Dassault didn't accepted anymore.


SO STOP SAYING DASSAULT DIDN'T DO ANYTHING TO WIN ITS FIRST (and major) EXPORT CAMPAIGN.
I didn't said that, but that they are responsible for losing the first and major Rafale win, which is the sad reality, that all main officials of the tender confirm.

We could read since some days that the single engine purchase project is dead. If it's real, Tejas and Rafale will received more push.
It's always good to have a lively fantasy, but in this case the reality showed us the IAF chief in October confirming that the priority is the SE MMRCA, while additional Rafale could be added later if the budget would be available. Just as the government confirmed in Dec, that apart of 83 LCAs, additional fighters would be manufactured under the strategic partnership model.
 

smestarz

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There is more than meet the eyes,
Firstly you can agree that it was impossible to get 126 planes at 10 billion dollars with the lines and other things.
The price for all that was offered would be more than twice, maybe about US$ 30 billion

Now how does one move from 10 billion to 30 billion dollars? Surely UPA knew that they just cannot say "now the prices are 30 bn and lets sign" they would have to try and justify it.

Thus with all known facts that HAL would be lead integrator and they had signed RFP Dassault tried to delay it (perhaps in cahoots with UPA) so that there would be delay and hence price rise would be justified.

Also the way the method was chosen is that 2 would be final selected and the govt will deal only with L1 and in case the discussions did not reach conclusions then there was no condition to discuss with L2 thus, with all the fixing. Rafale was selected L1 and with Dassault playing hard ball, there was no chance for GoI discussing with L2

So then we are left with situation where, we either accept Rafale with the price and terms and conditions they offer (and the IAF top brass were not help at all when they were giving bad timed interviews like "there is no plan B" thus actually putting the ball in Dassaults court, thus there was no way Dassault could lose this,

But unfortunately for them the govt changed, and UPA thought that now NDA had to deal with Dassault and sign it which of course they will try to cry foul, as to how 10 bn dollar deal became 30 billion.. But NDA turned out very smart, and he cancelled the RFP and just to keep IAF happy they ordered 36 token Rafale along with base infrastructure, and with terms and conditions that were win win both for Dassault, India and IAF, but in real sense, Dassualt playing hardball lost a HUGE ORDER, perhaps they were doing this at behest of UPA to whom they had paid kickbacks before.. and it was safer to do business with UPA as UPA made it "sellers market" for the planes, but all the NDA moves its made it buyers market where there are many options available to us and we are in position to either take or refuse at our discretion.

You have to differ here! On the one hand you have a vendor that has proven to be guided by greed and according to reports from the UAE and Belgium by arrogance.

But on the other hand you have one of the best 4.5th gen fighters, that was the first to be designed with priority on passive sensors and EW, that had unique weapon capabilities and good flight performance.




To be more precise, after they teamed up with Reliance (in 2012) the problems started, because then Dassault wanted to shift work share away, which is against the RFP. Dassault only complained about the RFP clauses at a later stage, after the MoD and HAL settled the work share issue. But Dassault kept making up issues, which stalled the whole negotiations for 3 years, till it was cancelled.
 

smestarz

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Do reply to me when you really wake up,

Tejas being ordered already, that makes it say 4 squadrons at least, (83) and there would be more Tejas, and more the nos of Tejas, more closer to the sanctioned nos and hence less chances for Rafale to even talk.
As of now. the GoI is not even talking of Rafale, oinly after the entire 36 planes arrive then GoI will see whats available and whats good for IAF. Next in line is upgrade for Sukhoi to super sukhoi status..

India was not really going to order SE planes, maybe in small nos but does not make sense if tejas is in production .

Don't worry Bro,
The IAF and indian pilots are so impressed by the plane that it's absolutely evident there will be at least another batch of 36.
Some indian forumers on this thread or another say at the end it could reach 250+. As for my self, I think the total will be between 108 (3x36) and 180 (5x36) just for IAF.

We could read since some days that the single engine purchase project is dead. If it's real, Tejas and Rafale will received more push.

IN is another thing. Probably more political.
 

Tactical Frog

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As of now. the GoI is not even talking of Rafale, oinly after the entire 36 planes arrive then GoI will see whats available and whats good for IAF. Next in line is upgrade for Sukhoi to super sukhoi status..
Yeah. Nobody was talking about a 36 Rafale deal either, just days before Modi’s announcement.

Rafale option is the best for IAF. Very easy to get more Rafale between 2020 and 2023 if orders come now, at a reasonable price and with significant MII component.

You are in for a world of (mental) pain when it happens.

Dassault 2017 highlights video just out .

 

Babloo Singh

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Don't worry Bro,
The IAF and indian pilots are so impressed by the plane that it's absolutely evident there will be at least another batch of 36.
Some indian forumers on this thread or another say at the end it could reach 250+. As for my self, I think the total will be between 108 (3x36) and 180 (5x36) just for IAF.

We could read since some days that the single engine purchase project is dead. If it's real, Tejas and Rafale will received more push.

IN is another thing. Probably more political.
IMO the current govt hit two targets with one stone... not only they got out of stuck MMRCA contract they also closed the requirement of Strategic Force Command which wanted 40 Su 30 for nuke delivery.
The two sq of Rafale may be going to SFC, look at the bases.. one against PAK & other against China.
In any case Su 30 with RCS of truck wasn't suitable for deep penetrating Nuke delivery, where as Rafale ticks all the boxes for Nuke delivery.

IAF will get another 40 Su -30 MKI which was meant for SFC.

However there may be a promise for more Rafale's based on they fulfilling their commitment regarding Kaveri.
If they deliver on their commitment & deliver us certified 95 Kn+ Kaveri we may see further order of 50+ for Navy which may be powered by Kaveri itself and the offset commitment will be Tuning/Certification of K-10, (or whatever it's called) the 125+ Kn engine for AMCA. There is probability of 36 more for IAF in case Navy deal dosen't materialize.

Bottom line is IAF may not get any Rafale at all, it will be SFC & Navy... (All SFC assets will be with IAF on paper but won't be under their command, just like SSBN's.)
 

darshan978

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IMO the current govt hit two targets with one stone... not only they got out of stuck MMRCA contract they also closed the requirement of Strategic Force Command which wanted 40 Su 30 for nuke delivery.
The two sq of Rafale may be going to SFC, look at the bases.. one against PAK & other against China.
In any case Su 30 with RCS of truck wasn't suitable for deep penetrating Nuke delivery, where as Rafale ticks all the boxes for Nuke delivery.

IAF will get another 40 Su -30 MKI which was meant for SFC.

However there may be a promise for more Rafale's based on they fulfilling their commitment regarding Kaveri.
If they deliver on their commitment & deliver us certified 95 Kn+ Kaveri we may see further order of 50+ for Navy which may be powered by Kaveri itself and the offset commitment will be Tuning/Certification of K-10, (or whatever it's called) the 125+ Kn engine for AMCA. There is probability of 36 more for IAF in case Navy deal dosen't materialize.

Bottom line is IAF may not get any Rafale at all, it will be SFC & Navy... (All SFC assets will be with IAF on paper but won't be under their command, just like SSBN's.)
Su 30 has rcs of truck?? Idiot show me some proofs and plz dont dis respect fighters like this
 

Adioz

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Su 30 has rcs of truck?? Idiot show me some proofs and plz dont dis respect fighters like this
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/su-30-mki.1363/page-60#post-308986
^RCS is ~3-4 m^2
How is stating facts = disrespecting a fighter?
Compared to the Rafale, we can be more than certain that Su-30 mki RCS is significantly larger.
IMO the current govt hit two targets with one stone... not only they got out of stuck MMRCA contract they also closed the requirement of Strategic Force Command which wanted 40 Su 30 for nuke delivery.
The two sq of Rafale may be going to SFC, look at the bases.. one against PAK & other against China.
In any case Su 30 with RCS of truck wasn't suitable for deep penetrating Nuke delivery, where as Rafale ticks all the boxes for Nuke delivery.

IAF will get another 40 Su -30 MKI which was meant for SFC.

However there may be a promise for more Rafale's based on they fulfilling their commitment regarding Kaveri.
If they deliver on their commitment & deliver us certified 95 Kn+ Kaveri we may see further order of 50+ for Navy which may be powered by Kaveri itself and the offset commitment will be Tuning/Certification of K-10, (or whatever it's called) the 125+ Kn engine for AMCA. There is probability of 36 more for IAF in case Navy deal dosen't materialize.

Bottom line is IAF may not get any Rafale at all, it will be SFC & Navy... (All SFC assets will be with IAF on paper but won't be under their command, just like SSBN's.)
Can't the Rafale squadrons be dual-tasked? I believe they can. They are perfect for air interdiction missions, and as such, would be deployed in war time for both nuclear air interdiction and conventional air interdiction. BTW, I missed the news of IAF Rafale having EMP hardening measures. Has this been stated by an official source explicitly or implicitly?
 

Babloo Singh

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Su 30 has rcs of truck?? Idiot show me some proofs and plz dont dis respect fighters like this
wow ! and I thought all super humans are on twitter & msm only.
@darshan978 can you give frontal RCS of Su 30MKI & Rafale will be thankful if you can.
Also please find attached dimensions of a Truck, can you guess/estimate the Frontal RCS :biggrin2:
 

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Babloo Singh

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http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/su-30-mki.1363/page-60#post-308986
^RCS is ~3-4 m^2
How is stating facts = disrespecting a fighter?
Compared to the Rafale, we can be more than certain that Su-30 mki RCS is significantly larger.

Can't the Rafale squadrons be dual-tasked? I believe they can. They are perfect for air interdiction missions, and as such, would be deployed in war time for both nuclear air interdiction and conventional air interdiction. BTW, I missed the news of IAF Rafale having EMP hardening measures. Has this been stated by an official source explicitly or implicitly?
First of all Thanks !!
Definitely Rafael can be dual tasked... but normally you don't dual task dedicated Nuke delivery vehicles, specially in case you have only 36 to take care of two fronts.
Pilots and configurations are 24x7 ready for one task only... as they won't have luxury of time or second chance.
Imagine plane not available as undergoing maintenance after CAP mission o_O
 

BON PLAN

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Nonsense, the one has nothing to do with the other! Dassault according to the RFP was free to choose subcontractors to divert "production work". But the integration work had to be done by HAL, which was known since 2007. Dassault tried to move the integration away from HAL to increase the works share of Reliance, that was suppose to build the wings and then send it to HAL.
The cost issue of HAL was only based on their "integration work" and not of subcontractors, nor has it anything to do with the RFP clauses that Dassault didn't accepted anymore.




I didn't said that, but that they are responsible for losing the first and major Rafale win, which is the sad reality, that all main officials of the tender confirm.



It's always good to have a lively fantasy, but in this case the reality showed us the IAF chief in October confirming that the priority is the SE MMRCA, while additional Rafale could be added later if the budget would be available. Just as the government confirmed in Dec, that apart of 83 LCAs, additional fighters would be manufactured under the strategic partnership model.
1) I don't agree.

2) NO

3) It's never the generals that decide. It's the politics. It seems that SE initiative is dead (Gripen E is too far dependant of US key components. F16 also and is a old horse).
 

BON PLAN

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Firstly you can agree that it was impossible to get 126 planes at 10 billion dollars with the lines and other things.
The price for all that was offered would be more than twice, maybe about US$ 30 billion
This price was never given by french Gvt or Dassault. It was an indian estimation.
You are free to estimate your futur brand new BMW X3 at 12000 $ ....

I don't know what was the final price. And it depends of the issue of the bargaining, of the amount of labor made by HAL, how they did it....
 

BON PLAN

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Also the way the method was chosen is that 2 would be final selected and the govt will deal only with L1 and in case the discussions did not reach conclusions then there was no condition to discuss with L2 thus, with all the fixing. Rafale was selected L1 and with Dassault playing hard ball, there was no chance for GoI discussing with L2
After the collapse of the L1 bargaining, India Gvt was free to open discussion with L2. And I'm sure they did it before the end.... Germany and GB pushed hard during those time.
 

darshan978

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wow ! and I thought all super humans are on twitter & msm only.
@darshan978 can you give frontal RCS of Su 30MKI & Rafale will be thankful if you can.
Also please find attached dimensions of a Truck, can you guess/estimate the Frontal RCS :biggrin2:
You give me proofs superhuman you claimed su 30 has rcs of truck not me !!!!:bounce::crazy::crazy::crazy:
 

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