Know Your 'Rafale'

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by A.V., Mar 26, 2009.

  1. srutayus

    srutayus New Member

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    The 138 million Euro per plane reduced cost is still more expensive than the per plane cost of the Rafale for India which is 91 million Euro.

    And then there is the preferences of the IAF whose liking for the Rafale comes from good reasons such as the proven multirole capabilities vis a vis the Eurofighter, prior positive experience with the Mirage 2000 etc.

    And then the huge time lag introduced by comparing 2 aircraft again when the entire urgency is to induct Asap to arrest soon to fall squadron numbers. That was they key reason for the emergency purchase that the government and IAF were faced with as the MRCA was going nowhere, FGFA is a far way away with its own other issues etc.
    Add to this the presence of Leonardo in the Eurofighter consortium and its de facto blacklisting post the Agusta helicopter scam. No MoD bureaucrat who cares for his career will in any way want to be associated with that.

    Finally the article itself deliberately presents the information in a false way. Such as the price given for the Rafale per plane is literally 7.1 billion divided by 36. But this includes the weapons, logistics cost (infrastructure & spares for 5 years), performance guarantee, additional enhancements etc. which all come up to about half the 7.1 billion.
    I say deliberately as the facts that I have stated here are easily verifiable from publicly available information. The author chose to present it the way he did.
    How seriously can anyone in a responsible position take such a hack job to issue a official response.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017 at 1:27 AM
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  2. Tactical Frog

    Tactical Frog Regular Member

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    That is the story Luftwaffe is selling. Introduce F-35 as a replacement for Tornado. Then it will be so much simpler to do the same thing for Eurofighters.
    I don’t blame Luftwaffe if they don’t bet much on a future French German fighter. It is a chimera to me as well.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017 at 1:41 AM
  3. WolfPack86

    WolfPack86 Senior Member Senior Member

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  4. WolfPack86

    WolfPack86 Senior Member Senior Member

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    It's seems like the Print Media is working over time for Euro fighter typhoon company. The sole aim is to derail Rafale deal. Journalist is only high lightning the price of Euro fighter typhoon not the technologies differences in his video. Let's sue the The Print media we must take this media house to the court.
     
  5. TPFscopes

    TPFscopes Rest in Peace Senior Member

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    No, they are working for Congress.
    Even Amit shah's son filed a defamation suite against ThePrint.
     
  6. WolfPack86

    WolfPack86 Senior Member Senior Member

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    We must do counter campaign against The Print media in social media plat form.
     
  7. TPFscopes

    TPFscopes Rest in Peace Senior Member

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    I don't think so...
    Its government's duty to clear all BS spread by biased media campaigns. Btw BJP also had several print and electronic media like zee
     
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  8. WolfPack86

    WolfPack86 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Many people in Manu Pubby twitter are mocking him in twitter and giving him a befitting reply.:biggrin2::india::india::balleballe:
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017 at 12:42 PM
  9. PD_Solo

    PD_Solo The only one

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    Wake me up when such rabid journalists attach a polygraph test result when asked "is it paid ?" with each report.
     
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  10. Sancho

    Sancho Regular Member

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    Because the current controversy is about the cost and the procedures around the Rafale deal, not the capabilities of the fighters, which is not an issue, since both were shortlisted and therfore technically suitable to IAFs requirements.
     
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  11. Sancho

    Sancho Regular Member

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    http://www.nasdaq.com/press-release...quires-an-additional-12-rafale-20171207-00143
     
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  12. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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  13. Kshithij

    Kshithij Regular Member

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    Comparisons must include offsets too like consultancy for Kaveri etc. Looking at mere absolute cost is wrong
     
  14. Willy2

    Willy2 Regular Member

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    4 crashes alone in 2017 for ET in a span of 2 months...Also in the age of multi-role fighter I think ET going to lose the crown of "primary fighter" within it's UK-Italy-Germany ( main developing nation) due to the F-35...In the way these nation become selective and dumping unnecessary project, I wonder how much effort then these nation going to put on ET..most probably they will phase out ET in next 10-15 years .
    While I don't see any reasonable fighter program from France which could hurt Rafale's status in french military..so the future of rafale may be more secure.

    Also as many poster here reasonably point out why Rafale deal is more justified than ET one against claims of Mr. Sancho who mostly oppose the deal based on propaganda article and some absurd moral highground that we should do MMRCA-2 and keep delaying our aircraft procurement for next 10 years. Why ? So that next time AS publish another BS way L2 bidder of "old MMRCA" is selected when L1 bidder still on the race...

    har har Modi
     
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  15. sthf

    sthf Senior Member Senior Member

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    Do we have a better breakdown of this deal?

    VBCI is a great machine. Let's hope that our own Kestrel match it one day.
     
  16. Tactical Frog

    Tactical Frog Regular Member

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    I have the following figures from French newspaper le Monde (total 11,1 bn €)

    12 Rafale 1,1 bn €
    490 VBCI 1,5 bn €
    50 Airbus A321 Neo. 5,5 bn €
    Doha Metro maintenance 3 bn €
     
  17. Sancho

    Sancho Regular Member

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    There is no comparison on offsets, because the MMRCA was clearly more beneficial in that regard and that's maybe the biggest loss for India, apart of the lack of fighters. The deal for 36 don't give us any critical techs of the fighter, in fact includes Falcon business jet production, which is useless wrt to improving Indian defence aviation industry. More over most of the offsets are focused on DRAL only, therefore no widespread advantages either, like it would had been the case in the MMRCA. Simply a bad deal in all accounts.

    On the other side, the EF had got us partnership in the consortium with access to techs and partnerships. It certainly was the better industrial chance, but at that time, the less capable fighter.
     
  18. Willy2

    Willy2 Regular Member

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    But in the name of TOT these organization make us fool from the last 5/6 decade , u can ask many old posters here ...the all agree that TOT in most of the cases are nothing but screw-driver job , considering that we have TOT clause for Mig-21/27 , jaguar, SU-30 deals we should have now enrich in all necessary technologies to fight these old houses of aircraft industry in west..but we can't , because TOT only sound good in word and no nation ready to sacrifice their technologies which they themselves develop by investing billions.

    If MMRCA deal involve TOT ...this deal probably interlinked with kaveri project too ...It's depends of govt willpower how much we can churn from French....but still technology transfer in that sense still on card .
     
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  19. Sancho

    Sancho Regular Member

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    You should inform yourself first, before you get to conclusions. I oppose the deal, because of the insanely bad outcome for India in terms of numbers of fighters, ToT and industrial benefits. Which all are facts and not even related to the EF issue, but to the cancellation of the MMRCA deal and a result of Dassaults behaviour.

    The EF only plays a role for me, in terms of proper procedures according to MoD rules, which requires a competitive bid and when you have 2 suitable fighters according to IAF requirements, it's only logical that both should provide an offer, can you deny that?

    Wrt EF upgrades, you clearly are not following the P3E upgrade programme, which comes out next year, otherwise you would know how much effort is put in the fighter right now, contrary to Rafale, which mainly benefits from Indian and Qatari customizations.
    The simple fact that French forces have to wait till 2025 for HMS, tells you a lot about upgraded capabilities and recent budget cuts also involved the F4 upgrade parts.
     
  20. Sancho

    Sancho Regular Member

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    Which is dependent on what ToT you are getting! Thales now plans to integrate RBE 2 AESA after production in France and at DRAL and therfore diverts the necessary minimum ToT, to do this basic job.
    In MMRCA on the other side, the RBE 2 was planned to be build completely at BEL, which means you need to transfer the far more knowledge to India and the same was the case for FSO at Samtel, or M88 at HAL. So we are back to screwdriver ToT, because we made a bad deal, that didn't included credible ToT.
    You have to differ between the possibilities back then and now though. In those times, India had no options and had to take, what especially western countries were ready to provide. We didn't wanted Jags, but it was the only fighter that was possible back then and similarly the ToT was limited to. Today we have more leverage, more alternative suppliers and can set the terms. The implementation of liquidated damages into the DPP is one example for the rules we have set over the years, just as the NDA now added performance based logistics, which both are based on lessons we learned after the MKI contracts and the issues around it. So you can't compare the past possibilities with today anymore, since we have evolved in our demands too.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017 at 10:44 PM

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