Know Your 'Rafale'

[akshay m]

i wonder if this is the usual fake news that the chandigarh gang usually writes

@ersakthivel

'HAL will take full responsibility for Rafales'

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) chairman T Suvarna Raju on Thursday said that HAL is willing to take full responsibility for the Rafales that it manufactures if the contract with French Defence major Dassault is signed. The comment assumes significance in the backdrop of a disagreement between India and Dassault over who would take guarantee for the Rafale fighter jets.
The Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft project involves buying of 18 aircraft from Dassault in flyaway condition, while the rest are to be manufactured by HAL under license.'HAL will take full responsibility for Rafales' | The Indian Express

 

[ersakthivel]

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@Punya Pratap Totally worth it


Bye

As if,

The recent revealations of spies in petroleum ministry having defence ministry Id cards,

And the IAF ex chief under CBI investigation after Agusta westland scam,

Army brigadier accused of asking bribe for LUH which ultimately led to tender cancellations,

And past navy war room leaks scam,

VRDE installing black box in Arjun trials after reports of wrong doing,

doesn't mean anything to you,

You are singing like a bird that IAF's "words of wisdom" ,i.e "there is no alternative to rafale " is the ultimate truth in the world!!!!

There are as many combo of planes that can do the job of rafale at half the cost reportedly demanded by dassault.

But you seem to oblivious to it all.

There were many reports like How dassault was thrown out of MMRCA bidding process by giving incomplete bid documents, and now reports suggesting its L1 selection itself was with wrong life cycle costs , show there is enough smoke to justify a fire.

Also mysteriously the GOI-IAF combo failed to select MMRCA winner and conclude the deal before the financial bids expired!!!!

can you believe it? If this happened in a private company the entire team that led Financial bid expire would have been fired.

news report suggesting dassault eyeing a indian private sector giant as Jv partner, Snecma wriggling out of GTRE-SNECMA JV talks on K-10 after MMRCA bid winner was decided,

reprted news that dassault unwilling to guarantee HAL built rafale(Is it impossible to post 50 or 100 of their personnel to thrpughly inspect rafales and giving their guarantee once HAL build them?) all add further color to the already colorful proceedings.

However the new govt is doing the right thing by sticking to RFP.

 

[karn]

Any modified Su 30 will need deep upgrades to be used as a strike fighter . There is a large difference between Su 30 and Su 34 which is the new dedicated strike aircraft for the VVS ,
Any negotiation for this upgraded Su 30 will take time (the modifications to the airframe and changes to avionics will be significant). There is a plan B you just have to ask the airfore to eat another delay.

ANyway the government will have the money after the budget it will become clear whether the government was stalling for want of money or what.

 

[smestarz]

I know most of the DFIans are More Intelligent than the Cheif of Air Staff India

The matter is with MoD and the least the IAF chief could do is shut up, After all he is not going to pay from his pocket, but if Rafale is signed I am sure his pockets are going to be lines up and hence this statement

 

[smestarz]

Any modified Su 30 will need deep upgrades to be used as a strike fighter . There is a large difference between Su 30 and Su 34 which is the new dedicated strike aircraft for the VVS ,
Any negotiation for this upgraded Su 30 will take time (the modifications to the airframe and changes to avionics will be significant). There is a plan B you just have to ask the airfore to eat another delay.

ANyway the government will have the money after the budget it will become clear whether the government was stalling for want of money or what.

Some of the Indian Su-30 MKI are having major upgrades and 40 of them have been now upgraded as Super Sukhoi class, these planes are now able to Carry Air launched Brahmos A. If ability to carry and fire Brahmos A is not a strike capability then what is?
Also it would be able to carry at least 3 Brahmos M (the lighter and smaller air launched missile)

 

[smestarz]

Dear Sajeev, I have said it before and I say it again, you do not force your own Government's hands when it is trying to negotiate the best deal it can from a FOREIGN OEM by saying the things the respected COAS has said. NAK Browne had also made a more sweeping pronouncements for the DIRE NEED of Rafale.... the good part is at least Arun Raha's stand shows that IAF is also willing to let go of its fixation for Rafale and can work with any Medium Multi Role Fighter! This in itself says a lot about where Rafale deal is heading since the day Rafale was shortlisted!!

I do not think Raha has more than 2 years of service, and surely he will not be inducting the plane when he is in service, so best he is trying to do is get kickbacks. rafale deal is flawed from day 1. The problem is not about our air chief appreciating a plane, but to such an extent that they point that Rafale is the best now and our national defence depends entirely on rafale. 126 Rafales are not going to be enough if China goes buffy on our butt. they are going to win in attrition.
Su-30 MKI we have is enough to take down pakistan in few days and then tejas can rule the roost there. But China on other hand has a disconnected sector, north and East. and sikkim will be the choke point, if they get that area, north east is isolated.

Rafale has never got againt Su-30 and only therotically Rafale is "superior" but then was it not just sometime back a russian Su-24 fencer incapacitated an AEGIS Frigate?
The missiles that Su-30 has have longer range and better capability than Rafale and hence in 1-1 situation, Su-30 strikes first and hence best chance to win

 

[karn]

Some of the Indian Su-30 MKI are having major upgrades and 40 of them have been now upgraded as Super Sukhoi class, these planes are now able to Carry Air launched Brahmos A. If ability to carry and fire Brahmos A is not a strike capability then what is?
Also it would be able to carry at least 3 Brahmos M (the lighter and smaller air launched missile)

A strike aircraft is expected to follow a terrain hugging profile . The airframe of the Su 30 is not sturdy enough for this . Modifying it will take time and (read up on F15 E modification).
Then there is the radar that is not designed to follow low-altitude terrain avoidance mode or automatic terrain-following capability, and neither is it equipped with low-altitude navigation pods all of which are a requirement .
Brahmos is used only for well defended targets.

 

[smestarz]

A strike aircraft is expected to follow a terrain hugging profile . The airframe of the Su 30 is not sturdy enough for this . Modifying it will take time and (read up on F15 E modification).
Then there is the radar that is not designed to follow low-altitude terrain avoidance mode or automatic terrain-following capability, and neither is it equipped with low-altitude navigation pods all of which are a requirement .
Brahmos is used only for well defended targets.

For Strike capability we have Jaguar and the same are being upgraded to higher standards.
Further there are different types of Strike missions.. combinations of highs (Hi) and lows (terrain hugging)
like Hi Hi Hi., Lo Lo Lo, Hi Lo Hi.. etc

When you fly high, the fuel consumption in a way is less but the detection is very much sure, in Lo profile the detection is less but fuel consumption is higher.

Now to answer your questions.
Firstly we have dedicated Jaguar to handle the strike roles further, IAF is going to incorporate Brahmos A for Su-30 MKI and even though Su-30 MKI airframe is not sturdy enough, Brahmos A is able to do so, it is all matter or programming the missile. Thus Su-30 MKI can do a Hi Lo Hi Sortie and launch Brahmos at Lo.

friends, this is era of smart weapons, and the bombs that India is using are smart munitions, thus when you say terrain hugging plane etc that is good for low detection specially when you aim to hit the target with dumb iron bombs and not by missile like Brahmos. IAF also has glide kits to convert dumb bombs into Glide smart bombs. so when a missile like Brahmos is fired from 200 kms + its work done.
Thus with what we have (Su-30 MKI and Brahmos A) we are able to handle the mission without problem
Another thing is if we take Rafale, it will not be able to take Brahmos A, there would be modifications to help it launch Brahmos M (and these will be charged exta) Or we have to purchase SCALP which might then cost us premium price. How would India be self sufficient when we would be buying both plane and A2G missiles when we already have a well developed A2G missile ?
So technically it means we buy an elephant and then buy a Farm for growing sugar cane for the elephant and also a big shelter for elephant? Interesting. Su-30 MKI has been developed as per Indian standards. and Rafale is not Indian standard and for using it we have to procure more French weapons and that might be additional contract of few billion dollars.

 

[karn]

For Strike capability we have Jaguar and the same are being upgraded to higher standards.
Further there are different types of Strike missions.. combinations of highs (Hi) and lows (terrain hugging)
like Hi Hi Hi., Lo Lo Lo, Hi Lo Hi.. etc

When you fly high, the fuel consumption in a way is less but the detection is very much sure, in Lo profile the detection is less but fuel consumption is higher.

Now to answer your questions.
Firstly we have dedicated Jaguar to handle the strike roles further, IAF is going to incorporate Brahmos A for Su-30 MKI and even though Su-30 MKI airframe is not sturdy enough, Brahmos A is able to do so, it is all matter or programming the missile. Thus Su-30 MKI can do a Hi Lo Hi Sortie and launch Brahmos at Lo.

friends, this is era of smart weapons, and the bombs that India is using are smart munitions, thus when you say terrain hugging plane etc that is good for low detection specially when you aim to hit the target with dumb iron bombs and not by missile like Brahmos. IAF also has glide kits to convert dumb bombs into Glide smart bombs. so when a missile like Brahmos is fired from 200 kms + its work done.
Thus with what we have (Su-30 MKI and Brahmos A) we are able to handle the mission without problem
Another thing is if we take Rafale, it will not be able to take Brahmos A, there would be modifications to help it launch Brahmos M (and these will be charged exta) Or we have to purchase SCALP which might then cost us premium price. How would India be self sufficient when we would be buying both plane and A2G missiles when we already have a well developed A2G missile ?
So technically it means we buy an elephant and then buy a Farm for growing sugar cane for the elephant and also a big shelter for elephant? Interesting. Su-30 MKI has been developed as per Indian standards. and Rafale is not Indian standard and for using it we have to procure more French weapons and that might be additional contract of few billion dollars.

Did you forget about the 80 something Mig 27s that will be retired in 2018 ? The number of Jaguars currently are not even close to the number the airforce needs and there is no way to get more Jaguars in any case . How long will the Jaguars themselves stick around ?

It is only while using a terrain hugging profile that an aircraft can avoid the early warning systems that the airdefence depends on .
. It was for this reason that the multinational coalition air-tasking authorities authorised the widespread use of RAF Tornado IDS as low-level interdictors against Iraq. And the IDF-AF's F-15Is too have always employed terrain-hugging flight-profiles whenever they have had to attack targets deep inside Syria. So why & how should the IAF be an exception . The IAF has a need for such strike aircraft it is their prerogative to define their force structure . Not me or you with our half baked knowledge.
If your argument is Brahmos A for the rest , you really have no right to complain about cost of the rafale .

 

[grampiguy]

A strike aircraft is expected to follow a terrain hugging profile . The airframe of the Su 30 is not sturdy enough for this . Modifying it will take time and (read up on F15 E modification).
Then there is the radar that is not designed to follow low-altitude terrain avoidance mode or automatic terrain-following capability, and neither is it equipped with low-altitude navigation pods all of which are a requirement .
Brahmos is used only for well defended targets.

This is your argument or Prasun Sengupta's? Last I heard here, his credibility without any reference was in doubt. Now, you agree with him?

 

[grampiguy]

Did you forget about the 80 something Mig 27s that will be retired in 2018 ? The number of Jaguars currently are not even close to the number the airforce needs and there is no way to get more Jaguars in any case . How long will the Jaguars themselves stick around ?

It is only while using a terrain hugging profile that an aircraft can avoid the early warning systems that the airdefence depends on .
. It was for this reason that the multinational coalition air-tasking authorities authorised the widespread use of RAF Tornado IDS as low-level interdictors against Iraq. And the IDF-AF's F-15Is too have always employed terrain-hugging flight-profiles whenever they have had to attack targets deep inside Syria. So why & how should the IAF be an exception . The IAF has a need for such strike aircraft it is their prerogative to define their force structure . Not me or you with our half baked knowledge.
If your argument is Brahmos A for the rest , you really have no right to complain about cost of the rafale .

Jaguar and Mirage 2000 in IAF will carry on till 2035 with upgrades. So, IAF should start looking at a platform to replace them in that period and AMCA fits well into it. About F-15 aircraft, wasn't it outsmarted by Su-27/30 series, several times in a row in last decade? Is it the same aircraft from Red Flag which created a ruckus in US Congress?

 

[sgarg]

Interesting discussion going on here. If IAF is so concerned about attack aircrafts, why does not it order LCA Tejas mark-1 with Israeli radars in large numbers??

What stop LCA Tejas to be used in this profile??

MMRCA project has lost its relevance over time due to additional numbers of Su-30 already ordered, and maturing of LCA Tejas.

 

[SajeevJino]

Jaguar and Mirage 2000 in IAF will carry on till 2035 with upgrades. So, IAF should start looking at a platform to replace them in that period and AMCA fits well into it. About F-15 aircraft, wasn't it outsmarted by Su-27/30 series, several times in a row in last decade? Is it the same aircraft from Red Flag which created a ruckus in US Congress?

damn, even If Su 30 and Rafale comes head to Head I sure Su 30 wins. Again it's not about the Air Dominance, It's the MMRCA ,

 

[SajeevJino]

Interesting discussion going on here. If IAF is so concerned about attack aircrafts, why does not it order LCA Tejas mark-1 with Israeli radars in large numbers??

What stop LCA Tejas to be used in this profile??

MMRCA project has lost its relevance over time due to additional numbers of Su-30 already ordered, and maturing of LCA Tejas.

Simple A plane should carry 6 ground attack munitions and 6 Air to Air Missiles with some 3 Fuel Tanks and a Targeting pods with decent EW and Low flying, long range Capablity

List me something

 

[sgarg]

Simple A plane should carry 6 ground attack munitions and 6 Air to Air Missiles with some 3 Fuel Tanks and a Targeting pods with decent EW and Low flying, long range Capablity

List me something

Why does IAF need it?? Show me the mission profiles? And show me why Jaguar or some other aircraft cannot perform those profiles??

It is not a question of how many hard points Rafale has.

 

[SajeevJino]

Why does IAF need it?? Show me the mission profiles? And show me why Jaguar or some other aircraft cannot perform those profiles??

It is not a question of how many hard points Rafale has.

Our Special forces operating Deep Behind the Enemy lines pinned by Tanks and enemy's have SHORAD's, GoI Need to recapture it's lost territory somewhere in Aksai sin or Arunachal,

suddenly they too scramble fighters and helicopters to provide support, so IAF need a Good fighter to do the Mission

another,

Indian Army need Air support the enemies are hiding behind fortified Buildings, so they need a surgical STRIKE on the area, mean time they moving too, so they need to update the fighter about enemy positions.

these are all for CAS missions , you wanna more

 

[sgarg]

Our Special forces operating Deep Behind the Enemy lines pinned by Tanks and enemy's have SHORAD's, GoI Need to recapture it's lost territory somewhere in Aksai sin or Arunachal,

suddenly they too scramble fighters and helicopters to provide support, so IAF need a Good fighter to do the Mission

another,

Indian Army need Air support the enemies are hiding behind fortified Buildings, so they need a surgical STRIKE on the area, mean time they moving too, so they need to update the fighter about enemy positions.

these are all for CAS missions , you wanna more

I think we have had this discussion before, and I said that $120M plane is unlikely to be used for CAS.
I also said that the purpose of Su-30 and Rafale is one and same. Only origin of plane and level of technology is different.

The CAS missions will be performed by Mig-27, Jaguar, LCA Tejas, helicopters etc. depending on situation.

 

[SajeevJino]

I think we have had this discussion before, and I said that $120M plane is unlikely to be used for CAS.
I also said that the purpose of Su-30 and Rafale is one and same. Only origin of plane and level of technology is different.

The CAS missions will be performed by Mig-27, Jaguar, LCA Tejas, helicopters etc. depending on situation.

I don't know where the $120 mil comes from,

are these above mission can be done by MiG 27 or Jaguar or LCA or Helicopter, Explain please

 

[sgarg]

I don't know where the $120 mil comes from,

are these above mission can be done by MiG 27 or Jaguar or LCA or Helicopter, Explain please

OK you tell me the price of Rafale?
There is nothing to explain. The problem is your level of ignorance is just sky high. It is impossible to argue with a fool.

 

[SajeevJino]

OK you tell me the price of Rafale?
There is nothing to explain. The problem is your level of ignorance is just sky high. It is impossible to argue with a fool.

okay back from starting, Do you think i'm a idiot to explain again and again a simple thing. Read up the older posts they clearly mentioned the price