sob
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Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral
The French source also quoted the same Russian gentleman.
Know Your 'Rafale'
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Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/132080.pdf
Mutual Logistic Support Agreement (MLSA)
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/132080.pdf
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pankaj nema
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Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral
What if Russia puts pressure on India to delay this Rafale deal OR ELSE ....
Putin is coming in a few days ; he will carry BOTH carrots and sticks for us
And GOI might be forced to just SIT on the Rafale deal till the Mistral mess is cleared
And as we speak ; some more clauses might be getting added in the Rafale agreement
What if Russia puts pressure on India to delay this Rafale deal OR ELSE ....
Putin is coming in a few days ; he will carry BOTH carrots and sticks for us
And GOI might be forced to just SIT on the Rafale deal till the Mistral mess is cleared
And as we speak ; some more clauses might be getting added in the Rafale agreement
sorcerer
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Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral
Imo,
India is watching France on how it is honoring its defence deals. If France buckles under international pressure in an international scheme to counter India, thats bad news for India on Rafale.
Dont know if the article is legit. But to summarise :any country doing defence deals with France will be watching how the mistral sale to russia.
Imo,
India is watching France on how it is honoring its defence deals. If France buckles under international pressure in an international scheme to counter India, thats bad news for India on Rafale.
Dont know if the article is legit. But to summarise :any country doing defence deals with France will be watching how the mistral sale to russia.
Zebra
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Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral
Russians are ready to accept GoI's requests about FGFA JV manufacturing in India and ToT?
On top of that, are they ready to consider GoI's "red line"?
Some Russian supporter may clear these matters on DFI. Any news / updates, please.
Russians are ready to accept GoI's requests about FGFA JV manufacturing in India and ToT?
On top of that, are they ready to consider GoI's "red line"?
Some Russian supporter may clear these matters on DFI. Any news / updates, please.
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Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral
Actually, the count is much higher.
warrior monk
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Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral
Looks like french are going to ditch the Russians and sell the Mistral to the Canadians or so . I am not allowed to post links as I am new on this forum but the below article appeared in international business times dated November 5. Other similar articles have appeared in canadian newspaper like nation post dated on November 6
The Canadian military has emerged as a potential destination for the controversial French-built Mistral helicopter carrier ships, built for Russia and now at the center of an international row after France indicated it would not hand them over, in response to international indignation over Russian actions in Ukraine.
The possibility of a Canadian solution appeared in French media after French President François Hollande began a state visit to Canada this week. While Hollande has yet to make a decision on whether Russia has met the criteria to receive the ships, the presence in the French delegation to Canada of the diplomatic advisor to the chairman of DCNS, the company that manufactures the ships, offers the first indication that France could actively be seeking an alternative buyer.
While the $1.6 billion deal was signed in 2010, European relations with Russia deteriorated significantly in 2014 after the former Soviet country annexed Crimea and assisted pro-Russian separatist in the Ukrainian regions of Donetsk and Luhansk.
Sanctions imposed against Russia did not prohibit the final delivery of the two Mistral ships, but the French president decided that the deal should go ahead only if Russia meets two criteria: one, genuinely observing the ceasefire between the Ukrainian government and Russian-backed rebels that was signed in September; and, two, agreeing to formally resolve the conflict in Ukraine.
The idea of Canada buying the ships is not a new one. In May 2014, Canadian Senator Hugh Segal publicly suggested that France should sell to Canada instead of Russia. "Canada or NATO should buy these ships from France, leaving the Russians to await a further slot on the list, which good behavior would assure," Segal said. "Being silent as French technology is afforded to an adventurist Russian military stance makes no sense at all."
It's unclear whether Hollande has decided if Russia has met the criteria. However, French Finance Minister Michel Sapin said at the end of October that Russia has not managed to meet the criteria and the ships should not be delivered. In the wake of those comments, the CEO of DCNS fired Yves Destefanis, the project manager responsible for the delivery of the ships to Russia, saying that he had "caused damaging consequences" to the company.
The Canadian link, first reported by French newspaper Le Monde on Monday, comes at a time when the Canadian military is aggressively modernizing its navy and coast guard. According to French and Canadian sources cited in Le Monde, the Canadian Armed Forces "are now determined to diversify their partners in defense matters," moving away from their traditional U.S. suppliers.
Canada may seek to take the two ships for less than Russia paid for them, meaning a deal could be delayed for negotiations. But a deal is further complicated by two issues: The decision not to deliver the ships is a political one that DCNS has no say in. According to the company, the deal will go ahead with Russia; the state-owned Russian defense company Rosoboronexport has already been invited to the handover ceremony of the first ship, the Sevastapol, set for Nov 14. Second, should the ships be handed over to a different military, DCNS may be sued for breach of contract, which could force them to return the cash Russia paid upfront and face a possible fine.
Looks like french are going to ditch the Russians and sell the Mistral to the Canadians or so . I am not allowed to post links as I am new on this forum but the below article appeared in international business times dated November 5. Other similar articles have appeared in canadian newspaper like nation post dated on November 6
The Canadian military has emerged as a potential destination for the controversial French-built Mistral helicopter carrier ships, built for Russia and now at the center of an international row after France indicated it would not hand them over, in response to international indignation over Russian actions in Ukraine.
The possibility of a Canadian solution appeared in French media after French President François Hollande began a state visit to Canada this week. While Hollande has yet to make a decision on whether Russia has met the criteria to receive the ships, the presence in the French delegation to Canada of the diplomatic advisor to the chairman of DCNS, the company that manufactures the ships, offers the first indication that France could actively be seeking an alternative buyer.
While the $1.6 billion deal was signed in 2010, European relations with Russia deteriorated significantly in 2014 after the former Soviet country annexed Crimea and assisted pro-Russian separatist in the Ukrainian regions of Donetsk and Luhansk.
Sanctions imposed against Russia did not prohibit the final delivery of the two Mistral ships, but the French president decided that the deal should go ahead only if Russia meets two criteria: one, genuinely observing the ceasefire between the Ukrainian government and Russian-backed rebels that was signed in September; and, two, agreeing to formally resolve the conflict in Ukraine.
The idea of Canada buying the ships is not a new one. In May 2014, Canadian Senator Hugh Segal publicly suggested that France should sell to Canada instead of Russia. "Canada or NATO should buy these ships from France, leaving the Russians to await a further slot on the list, which good behavior would assure," Segal said. "Being silent as French technology is afforded to an adventurist Russian military stance makes no sense at all."
It's unclear whether Hollande has decided if Russia has met the criteria. However, French Finance Minister Michel Sapin said at the end of October that Russia has not managed to meet the criteria and the ships should not be delivered. In the wake of those comments, the CEO of DCNS fired Yves Destefanis, the project manager responsible for the delivery of the ships to Russia, saying that he had "caused damaging consequences" to the company.
The Canadian link, first reported by French newspaper Le Monde on Monday, comes at a time when the Canadian military is aggressively modernizing its navy and coast guard. According to French and Canadian sources cited in Le Monde, the Canadian Armed Forces "are now determined to diversify their partners in defense matters," moving away from their traditional U.S. suppliers.
Canada may seek to take the two ships for less than Russia paid for them, meaning a deal could be delayed for negotiations. But a deal is further complicated by two issues: The decision not to deliver the ships is a political one that DCNS has no say in. According to the company, the deal will go ahead with Russia; the state-owned Russian defense company Rosoboronexport has already been invited to the handover ceremony of the first ship, the Sevastapol, set for Nov 14. Second, should the ships be handed over to a different military, DCNS may be sued for breach of contract, which could force them to return the cash Russia paid upfront and face a possible fine.
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Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral
Despite outgunning all competition (including rival Americano aircrafts) in trials (technical evaluations) in multiple nations across the world, Rafale was not chosen by a single nation, so far, e.g. Even when UAE wanted it, the French failed to close it. Certainly, cost was not an issue. Similarly, despite Brazilian military's clear preference for Rafale, the deal could never be sealed. Here, political leadership chose to decide otherwise. In S. Korea, US simply shirtfront-ed their way through with Strike Eagle.
Maybe, leaders across the world choose to give geo-political realities more weightage & hence aligning with US (at the cost of French), by using their arms-deals as political leverages.
That French labour (& hence, its produce) is costlier than American is yet another aspect.
The way I see it: The French were never any good at tom-tomming about their stuff the way Americans do.
Despite outgunning all competition (including rival Americano aircrafts) in trials (technical evaluations) in multiple nations across the world, Rafale was not chosen by a single nation, so far, e.g. Even when UAE wanted it, the French failed to close it. Certainly, cost was not an issue. Similarly, despite Brazilian military's clear preference for Rafale, the deal could never be sealed. Here, political leadership chose to decide otherwise. In S. Korea, US simply shirtfront-ed their way through with Strike Eagle.
Maybe, leaders across the world choose to give geo-political realities more weightage & hence aligning with US (at the cost of French), by using their arms-deals as political leverages.
That French labour (& hence, its produce) is costlier than American is yet another aspect.
pmaitra
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Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral
Ref: IRIS - Institut de Relations Internationales et Stratégiques
The gentleman in question, Mr. Arnaud Dubien, is French, not Russian.
Ref: IRIS - Institut de Relations Internationales et Stratégiques
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Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral
Will India cancel the MMRCA contract with France ?
Will India cancel the MMRCA contract with France which was signed in early September for the delivery of 126 Rafale fighter jets should France refuse to deliver the Mistral Class warship to Russia. The MMRCA contract with France is valued at around $20 to $23 billion.
India has the power to cancel the contract since India has not signed a binding agreement with France yet. India will most likely sign the agreement early next year. What's disturbing for India is the cancellation of the delivery of the Mistral class warship helicopter carrier which was built by France for Russia. The warship is ready waiting to be delivered to Russia.
French President Francois Hollande blamed Russia for the invasion in eastern Ukraine and the downing of a commercial airliner by separatists with Russian help for the cancellation of the Mistral delivery.
It is a very remote possibility that the cancellation of the warship delivery to Russia by France might make India cancel the MMRCA deal which is undergoing final price negotiations. The Mistral warship dispute has put France in a tight spot and its reliability as a weapons supplier is in question.
The French media had warned that France risked losing the reputation of being a reliable arms supplier to India and the world. Its decision of not to deliver the Mistral Class Helicopter Carrier to Russia might put India under Russian pressure to back off from the MMRCA deal.
Russia's Ambassador to India, Alexander M. Kadakin had recently slammed India's decision to proceed with the MMRCA contract with France in the face of a blatant contract violation. He went on to say that the French Fighter jet could be shot down like a mosquito by Chinese made Sukhoi Jets should there ever be a conflict.
Russia as an old ally of India has lost the military clout over India since India started diversifying its arms purchase from the US, Israel and the European Union. It cannot force but only hope that India would take the Mistral lesson into consideration and cancel the $20 billion contract to teach France a lesson. The IAF's fighting force levels are depleting and it is highly unlikely that India would cancel the MMRCA deal. As a matter of fact, the Modi Govt. has taken up the MMRCA deal on a priority basis and they hope to seal the deal early next year.
Russian President Vladimir Putin will be visiting India next month and both countries are likely to take a call on the joint development of the FGFA 5th generation stealth fighter programm
Defence News - Will India cancel the MMRCA contract with France ?
Will India cancel the MMRCA contract with France ?
Will India cancel the MMRCA contract with France which was signed in early September for the delivery of 126 Rafale fighter jets should France refuse to deliver the Mistral Class warship to Russia. The MMRCA contract with France is valued at around $20 to $23 billion.
India has the power to cancel the contract since India has not signed a binding agreement with France yet. India will most likely sign the agreement early next year. What's disturbing for India is the cancellation of the delivery of the Mistral class warship helicopter carrier which was built by France for Russia. The warship is ready waiting to be delivered to Russia.
French President Francois Hollande blamed Russia for the invasion in eastern Ukraine and the downing of a commercial airliner by separatists with Russian help for the cancellation of the Mistral delivery.
It is a very remote possibility that the cancellation of the warship delivery to Russia by France might make India cancel the MMRCA deal which is undergoing final price negotiations. The Mistral warship dispute has put France in a tight spot and its reliability as a weapons supplier is in question.
The French media had warned that France risked losing the reputation of being a reliable arms supplier to India and the world. Its decision of not to deliver the Mistral Class Helicopter Carrier to Russia might put India under Russian pressure to back off from the MMRCA deal.
Russia's Ambassador to India, Alexander M. Kadakin had recently slammed India's decision to proceed with the MMRCA contract with France in the face of a blatant contract violation. He went on to say that the French Fighter jet could be shot down like a mosquito by Chinese made Sukhoi Jets should there ever be a conflict.
Russia as an old ally of India has lost the military clout over India since India started diversifying its arms purchase from the US, Israel and the European Union. It cannot force but only hope that India would take the Mistral lesson into consideration and cancel the $20 billion contract to teach France a lesson. The IAF's fighting force levels are depleting and it is highly unlikely that India would cancel the MMRCA deal. As a matter of fact, the Modi Govt. has taken up the MMRCA deal on a priority basis and they hope to seal the deal early next year.
Russian President Vladimir Putin will be visiting India next month and both countries are likely to take a call on the joint development of the FGFA 5th generation stealth fighter programm
Defence News - Will India cancel the MMRCA contract with France ?
sorcerer
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French Defense Minister in India!!!! [1st of December 2014]
ONE HELICOPTER CARRIER "MISTRAL" CAN DOWN HUNDRED OF "RAFALE" JETS
The French Defense Minister will personally try to persuade the Indian government into the purchase of the fighter aircrafts "Rafale". On his arrival to Delhi on the 1st of December, Jean Yves Le Drian will meet the Indian Defense Minister - Manohar Parrikar. Paris is aiming to conclude signing of the deal for sale of the 126 "Rafale" to India and hoping to receive payments of at least $ 20 billion.
However, not only a colossal cost of the transaction makes Delhi not to rush with the final decision. The scandal concerning refusal of France to convey to Russia the already built helicopter carrier "Mistral" forces many to question the reliability of Paris as a supplier of arms. Non-fulfillment of the transaction connected with the "Mistral" is extremely unfavorable for France. Just the penalties arising due to non-fulfillment of the transaction could reach, according to various estimates, anywhere between 3 to 10 billion Euros.
But apparently, the US pressure, exceeds all economic and reputational losses. Such a dependence on the foreign policy situation in France cannot but worry India, notes Vladimir Shvayev, deputy director of the Center for Analysis of World Arms Trade.
A "refusal to supply" the Mistral to Russia will undoubtedly have a negative impact on the image of France as a reliable supplier of arms. And above all, it will affect the programs that are under discussion and are of a long-term nature. These programs include delivery of the Rafale fighter aircrafts. The deal has been designed to be implemented during the course of many years. After all, even after the supply of fighter planes is over, they will need to undergo maintenance and a constant supply of spare parts. If India decides to purchase the aircrafts Rafale, it will become dependent on France for many decades to come".
It is not difficult to imagine that if the United States requires to exert pressure on India - for example, in disputes under the WTO cooperation aegis - they can get Paris to stop implementation of the contract for the supply of Rafale. And then the Indian Air Force will be vulnerable of being understaffed in its deployment of the modern fighter squadrons.
Such threats have already been received in Brazil and China. As reported by the international media, diplomats of these countries have begun to express doubts on the prospects of military-technical cooperation with France.
It is also noteworthy that the EU neighbors of France are also in a hurry to take advantage of the difficult situation that France is in. Sweden has again reminded Delhi of their fighter aircraft Gripen. And the British Defence Secretary - Michael Fallon, recently told The Times of India, that the Eurofighter was fully ready to step in to fulfil India's requirements if negotiations for the Rafale failed.
ONE HELICOPTER CARRIER "MISTRAL" CAN DOWN HUNDRED OF "RAFALE" JETS - News - Society - Russian Radio
==========
France will have to make a strong stand rather than be pansys!!!
Its an insult to rooster (pun intended), national bird of France!
Some day France will have to make a stand now or never!!
ONE HELICOPTER CARRIER "MISTRAL" CAN DOWN HUNDRED OF "RAFALE" JETS
The French Defense Minister will personally try to persuade the Indian government into the purchase of the fighter aircrafts "Rafale". On his arrival to Delhi on the 1st of December, Jean Yves Le Drian will meet the Indian Defense Minister - Manohar Parrikar. Paris is aiming to conclude signing of the deal for sale of the 126 "Rafale" to India and hoping to receive payments of at least $ 20 billion.
However, not only a colossal cost of the transaction makes Delhi not to rush with the final decision. The scandal concerning refusal of France to convey to Russia the already built helicopter carrier "Mistral" forces many to question the reliability of Paris as a supplier of arms. Non-fulfillment of the transaction connected with the "Mistral" is extremely unfavorable for France. Just the penalties arising due to non-fulfillment of the transaction could reach, according to various estimates, anywhere between 3 to 10 billion Euros.
But apparently, the US pressure, exceeds all economic and reputational losses. Such a dependence on the foreign policy situation in France cannot but worry India, notes Vladimir Shvayev, deputy director of the Center for Analysis of World Arms Trade.
A "refusal to supply" the Mistral to Russia will undoubtedly have a negative impact on the image of France as a reliable supplier of arms. And above all, it will affect the programs that are under discussion and are of a long-term nature. These programs include delivery of the Rafale fighter aircrafts. The deal has been designed to be implemented during the course of many years. After all, even after the supply of fighter planes is over, they will need to undergo maintenance and a constant supply of spare parts. If India decides to purchase the aircrafts Rafale, it will become dependent on France for many decades to come".
It is not difficult to imagine that if the United States requires to exert pressure on India - for example, in disputes under the WTO cooperation aegis - they can get Paris to stop implementation of the contract for the supply of Rafale. And then the Indian Air Force will be vulnerable of being understaffed in its deployment of the modern fighter squadrons.
Such threats have already been received in Brazil and China. As reported by the international media, diplomats of these countries have begun to express doubts on the prospects of military-technical cooperation with France.
It is also noteworthy that the EU neighbors of France are also in a hurry to take advantage of the difficult situation that France is in. Sweden has again reminded Delhi of their fighter aircraft Gripen. And the British Defence Secretary - Michael Fallon, recently told The Times of India, that the Eurofighter was fully ready to step in to fulfil India's requirements if negotiations for the Rafale failed.
ONE HELICOPTER CARRIER "MISTRAL" CAN DOWN HUNDRED OF "RAFALE" JETS - News - Society - Russian Radio
==========
France will have to make a strong stand rather than be pansys!!!
Its an insult to rooster (pun intended), national bird of France!
Some day France will have to make a stand now or never!!
sorcerer
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Re: French Defense Minister in India!!!! [1st of December 2014]
India Denies Reports That it Will Cancel French Rafale Jet Deal
A high-ranking source in Indian Defense Ministry said that India is not planning to cancel the deal on purchasing French Rafale jets.
NEW DELHI, November 27 (Sputnik) — India is not planning to cancel the deal on purchasing French Rafale jets despite earlier media reports
that it would do so if France refuses to deliver Mistral helicopter carriers to Russia, a high-ranking source in Indian Defense Ministry told Sputnik Thursday.
"So far the Rafale deal with France is on, there is no problem in it," the source said.
He also added that India has "ambitious plans" to replace the country's Soviet-made MIG jets with French analogues.
The statement comes after French President Francois Hollande postponed the delivery of the first Mistral-class helicopter carrier to Russia over the situation in Ukraine on November 25.
Under the $1.6 billion deal signed by the two sides in June 2011, the handover of the first ship, the Vladivostok, was scheduled for November 14.
According to earlier media reports, India warned in September it would cancel the $20-$22 billion contract signed with French Dassault Aviation company on the supply of 126 Rafale fighter jets if Paris refuses to fulfil its obligations under the Mistral contract.
India Denies Reports That it Will Cancel French Rafale Jet Deal / Sputnik International
India Denies Reports That it Will Cancel French Rafale Jet Deal
A high-ranking source in Indian Defense Ministry said that India is not planning to cancel the deal on purchasing French Rafale jets.
NEW DELHI, November 27 (Sputnik) — India is not planning to cancel the deal on purchasing French Rafale jets despite earlier media reports
that it would do so if France refuses to deliver Mistral helicopter carriers to Russia, a high-ranking source in Indian Defense Ministry told Sputnik Thursday."So far the Rafale deal with France is on, there is no problem in it," the source said.
He also added that India has "ambitious plans" to replace the country's Soviet-made MIG jets with French analogues.
The statement comes after French President Francois Hollande postponed the delivery of the first Mistral-class helicopter carrier to Russia over the situation in Ukraine on November 25.
Under the $1.6 billion deal signed by the two sides in June 2011, the handover of the first ship, the Vladivostok, was scheduled for November 14.
According to earlier media reports, India warned in September it would cancel the $20-$22 billion contract signed with French Dassault Aviation company on the supply of 126 Rafale fighter jets if Paris refuses to fulfil its obligations under the Mistral contract.
India Denies Reports That it Will Cancel French Rafale Jet Deal / Sputnik International
sorcerer
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Re: French Defense Minister in India!!!! [1st of December 2014]
French defence minister to visit India amid deadlock in project for 126 Rafale fighters
NEW DELHI: With the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project for 126 Rafale fighters stuck in the final stages, French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian will be holding talks with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar next week in a bid to resolve the imbroglio.
As was first reported by TOI, 90% of the draft contract for the complex MMRCA project has been finalized, under which the first 18 jets are to be delivered to IAF within 36-48 months of the deal being inked. The rest 108, in turn, will be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) with transfer of technology over the next seven years thereafter.
But the major bone of contention is French aviation major Dassault's continuing reluctance to accept responsibility for the 108 fighters to be built by HAL as far as liquidity damages and timelines for production are concerned.
This has stalled the finalization of the project for several months now. Drian, on his part, is slated to hold delegation-level talks with Parrikar on December 1 during his two-day visit to India. "The MMRCA will obviously figure in the talks," said an official.
It was in January 2012 that India had selected Dassault's Rafale fighter over its five other rivals for the MMRCA project after an extensive technical and commercial evaluation. But the final negotiations have proceeded at a glacial pace since then, rekindling the hope of Eurofighter Typhoon, which is backed by the UK, Germany, Spain and Italy.
British defence secretary Michael Fallon, in fact, recently told TOI that the Eurofighter was fully ready to step in to fulfil India's requirements if negotiations for the Rafale failed.
But, as reported earlier, there can be "no comebacks" in the ongoing MMRCA project as per the Indian defence procurement policy and CVC guidelines. India can either ink the deal for the Rafales or scrap the entire MMRCA selection process undertaken since August 2007.
With IAF down to 34 fighter squadrons, when at least 44 are required, IAF has identified the MMRCA project as its "topmost priority" for the Modi government. The indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft, which is yet to receive its final operational clearance despite being in the making for 30 years, simply cannot fulfill the MMRCA's role.
A MMRCA, for instance, will have three times the range and weapon-load carrying capacity as compared to the Tejas, which will be critical to take on China if required. India is also pushing Russia, ahead of President Vladimir Putin's visit here early next month, to come back with a plan to substantially reduce the delivery timeframe for the stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) if it wants to stitch-up the futuristic project by next year.
French defence minister to visit India amid deadlock in project for 126 Rafale fighters - The Times of India
French defence minister to visit India amid deadlock in project for 126 Rafale fighters
NEW DELHI: With the almost $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project for 126 Rafale fighters stuck in the final stages, French defence minister Jean-Yves Le Drian will be holding talks with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar next week in a bid to resolve the imbroglio.
As was first reported by TOI, 90% of the draft contract for the complex MMRCA project has been finalized, under which the first 18 jets are to be delivered to IAF within 36-48 months of the deal being inked. The rest 108, in turn, will be manufactured by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) with transfer of technology over the next seven years thereafter.
But the major bone of contention is French aviation major Dassault's continuing reluctance to accept responsibility for the 108 fighters to be built by HAL as far as liquidity damages and timelines for production are concerned.
This has stalled the finalization of the project for several months now. Drian, on his part, is slated to hold delegation-level talks with Parrikar on December 1 during his two-day visit to India. "The MMRCA will obviously figure in the talks," said an official.
It was in January 2012 that India had selected Dassault's Rafale fighter over its five other rivals for the MMRCA project after an extensive technical and commercial evaluation. But the final negotiations have proceeded at a glacial pace since then, rekindling the hope of Eurofighter Typhoon, which is backed by the UK, Germany, Spain and Italy.
British defence secretary Michael Fallon, in fact, recently told TOI that the Eurofighter was fully ready to step in to fulfil India's requirements if negotiations for the Rafale failed.
But, as reported earlier, there can be "no comebacks" in the ongoing MMRCA project as per the Indian defence procurement policy and CVC guidelines. India can either ink the deal for the Rafales or scrap the entire MMRCA selection process undertaken since August 2007.
With IAF down to 34 fighter squadrons, when at least 44 are required, IAF has identified the MMRCA project as its "topmost priority" for the Modi government. The indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft, which is yet to receive its final operational clearance despite being in the making for 30 years, simply cannot fulfill the MMRCA's role.
A MMRCA, for instance, will have three times the range and weapon-load carrying capacity as compared to the Tejas, which will be critical to take on China if required. India is also pushing Russia, ahead of President Vladimir Putin's visit here early next month, to come back with a plan to substantially reduce the delivery timeframe for the stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) if it wants to stitch-up the futuristic project by next year.
French defence minister to visit India amid deadlock in project for 126 Rafale fighters - The Times of India
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I have already said the same so many times before that the deal is held up in impractical indigenization goals. The high price of the plane is being justified by so called TOT. TOT is not working out as HAL is incapable of meeting expectations of Dassault.
The tender is totally botched up, and chances are very high that this tender will be cancelled.
HAL should not have been in the picture at all. The previous govt made a very serious mistake of inserting HAL in the picture. As I said, the best option was to involve a private sector company with stipulation that they achieve certain goals on localization.
The tender is totally botched up, and chances are very high that this tender will be cancelled.
HAL should not have been in the picture at all. The previous govt made a very serious mistake of inserting HAL in the picture. As I said, the best option was to involve a private sector company with stipulation that they achieve certain goals on localization.
Lions Of Punjab
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LIVEFIST: EXCLUSIVE: Specifically Why India's Rafale Deal Is Held Up
EXCLUSIVE: Specifically Why India's Rafale Deal Is Held Up
So, as I mentioned in my earlier post, sticking points in negotiations between Dassault Aviation and HAL remain the chief reason why a draft contract hasn't reached finality. There have been a few reports that point to general difficulties in negotiations between HAL and Dassault on liability for the 108 aircraft that the former will license build in Bangalore. What you probably haven't heard about are the specific stumbling blocks. There are basically three:
1) Responsibility for the 108 aircraft in terms of liability, damages and attendant clauses on access, inspection and post-manufacture testing. Dassault's concern is that HAL hasn't built up any of the fixed assets which the company feels would be the minimum requirement to begin discussing the modalities of the kind of liability HAL wants Dassault to take on for the jets built in India. With the last 60 aircraft to be as much as 90% 'Made in India',
2) The ball is apparently in HAL's court, with Dassault telling the Cost Negotiation Committee (CNC) that it still awaits figures from HAL on the financial specifics of the liability it is seeking to transfer to Dassault. Dassault has asked HAL to clarify the specifics of any similar liability parameters in comparable deals like HAL's Su-30 MKI production line on license from Russia.
3) Modalities of licensee/licensor and the manner in which the final agreement sets down their roles. Things are actually more contentious than most believe/report. Dassault has even flagged up issues with access to HAL's facilities.
Done and dusted clauses of the exhaustive contract cover pretty much all other aspects. The company's aversion for HAL manifested itself two years ago when it was revealed that Dassault wanted to built some of its aircraft with Reliance Industries' new defence business. With an irritated HAL putting its foot down and asserting itself as the principal production partner, the relationship between the two has been, well, uncertain at best. Both sides will be looking to new leadership at the MoD to get things moving.
EXCLUSIVE: Specifically Why India's Rafale Deal Is Held Up
So, as I mentioned in my earlier post, sticking points in negotiations between Dassault Aviation and HAL remain the chief reason why a draft contract hasn't reached finality. There have been a few reports that point to general difficulties in negotiations between HAL and Dassault on liability for the 108 aircraft that the former will license build in Bangalore. What you probably haven't heard about are the specific stumbling blocks. There are basically three:
1) Responsibility for the 108 aircraft in terms of liability, damages and attendant clauses on access, inspection and post-manufacture testing. Dassault's concern is that HAL hasn't built up any of the fixed assets which the company feels would be the minimum requirement to begin discussing the modalities of the kind of liability HAL wants Dassault to take on for the jets built in India. With the last 60 aircraft to be as much as 90% 'Made in India',
2) The ball is apparently in HAL's court, with Dassault telling the Cost Negotiation Committee (CNC) that it still awaits figures from HAL on the financial specifics of the liability it is seeking to transfer to Dassault. Dassault has asked HAL to clarify the specifics of any similar liability parameters in comparable deals like HAL's Su-30 MKI production line on license from Russia.
3) Modalities of licensee/licensor and the manner in which the final agreement sets down their roles. Things are actually more contentious than most believe/report. Dassault has even flagged up issues with access to HAL's facilities.
Done and dusted clauses of the exhaustive contract cover pretty much all other aspects. The company's aversion for HAL manifested itself two years ago when it was revealed that Dassault wanted to built some of its aircraft with Reliance Industries' new defence business. With an irritated HAL putting its foot down and asserting itself as the principal production partner, the relationship between the two has been, well, uncertain at best. Both sides will be looking to new leadership at the MoD to get things moving.
mehrotraprince
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Re: French Defense Minister in India!!!! [1st of December 2014]
Rafale: Range--- ?? (internal fuel 4.7t with 2 engines), Weapon Load---9500 Kg
Tejas: Range---?? (internal fuel 2.45t with single engine), Weapon Load---4200 Kg, 3600 Kg(at Leh i.e. high altitude)
Now please someone explain it to me, what is 4200X3 = 12600 Kg and how the hell Rafale can have 3 times more range(be it ferry of combat on internal fuel) than Tejas when it has less than twice the internal fuel despite having 2 engines (yes I konw engines on Rafale are slightly more fuel efficient than GE-404, .80 vs .81).
False, truth is:
Rafale: Range--- ?? (internal fuel 4.7t with 2 engines), Weapon Load---9500 Kg
Tejas: Range---?? (internal fuel 2.45t with single engine), Weapon Load---4200 Kg, 3600 Kg(at Leh i.e. high altitude)
Now please someone explain it to me, what is 4200X3 = 12600 Kg and how the hell Rafale can have 3 times more range(be it ferry of combat on internal fuel) than Tejas when it has less than twice the internal fuel despite having 2 engines (yes I konw engines on Rafale are slightly more fuel efficient than GE-404, .80 vs .81).
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@Lions Of Punjab, the gist is that HAL does not have the ability to build the engine and other components. Dassualt is actually telling a truth that is well known.
However what this news item does not say is that the French are not keen to help set up the manufacturing process to build the engine, for example. French are saying to HAL - build the plant and we shall give you the drawings. You build the engine based on drawings. HAL simply does not have expertise to either set up the plant or to build the engine from drawings.
HAL wants hand-holding like it happened in case of Su-30. French are not too keen.
MMRCA project has got trapped in local manufacturing, while it was supposed to be an urgent operational requirement best met through outright imports (and maintenance knowledge).
MMRCA project has become far far bigger than what it was supposed to be, and in the process, the financial side has become hazy.
However what this news item does not say is that the French are not keen to help set up the manufacturing process to build the engine, for example. French are saying to HAL - build the plant and we shall give you the drawings. You build the engine based on drawings. HAL simply does not have expertise to either set up the plant or to build the engine from drawings.
HAL wants hand-holding like it happened in case of Su-30. French are not too keen.
MMRCA project has got trapped in local manufacturing, while it was supposed to be an urgent operational requirement best met through outright imports (and maintenance knowledge).
MMRCA project has become far far bigger than what it was supposed to be, and in the process, the financial side has become hazy.
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