Know Your 'Rafale'

[sgarg]

Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral

Some might see this as India batting for Russia, but I see this as a simple case. France must not be encouraged to refuse to abide a contract that it has signed. If France does this with Russia today, it will do the same thing with India tomorrow. Indian taxpayers' money is not to be squandered away on those that will hold it for months and then refuse to supply whatever has been paid for.

India must weigh all external relations. India is an Asian country. India has to live in its unique Asian environment.

India does not live in Europe. Some Generals may like France but what is good for France is not necessarily good for India.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral

India must weigh all external relations. India is an Asian country. India has to live in its unique Asian environment.

India does not live in Europe. Some Generals may like France but what is good for France is not necessarily good for India.

Agreed. My point is, France, and France alone is responsible for France's actions. If India shuts the doors on France after France's refusal to honour its contracts, it is not India's fault.

 

[sgarg]

Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral

India does not trust the US.

Whatever India buys from the US, is insured. I am glad the policy makers and bureaucrats who make decisions take care of the details, unlike some folks who go ga-ga over US. This is not a criticism of the quality of efficacy of US arms, but a criticism of the tendency of the US government to arm-twist and bully others.

None of the US buys puts India in a position of serious disadvantage. The C-17 and C-130 are not the only planes IAF has. IAF has 600 fixed wing and rotary platforms. C-17 and C-130 spares cannot ground India's wartime effort.

India's economic relationship with USA is very big and very beneficial for USA. This economic relationship alone ensures that USA will not go against India easily.

 

[sgarg]

Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral

I have said earlier in multiple posts that the government will give more weight to economic imperatives than security imperatives. The first target is economy.

Whatever improves economy is going to get a consideration.

The security relationship with the USA must be seen in this light.

Modi believes that improving economy of India is the best way of making India strong.

India has taken a conscious decision in becoming a key player in BRICS. This involves greater economic and security cooperation within BRICS. The military establishment is still mired in old thinking.

My opinion is that both Scorpene construction and Mirage-2000 upgrade are seriously overpriced. These contracts are signed and these capabilities are needed. So it is not possible to reopen these cases. However we need to be careful in future contracts.

 

[Zebra]

Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral

Old news, propaganda news article.

Nothing else, few people are trying their best to get something for Russia, that too at the cost of their own country.

 

[sob]

Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral

How the news gets manipulated. The French site quoted in the OP refers to another site Mistral row: France risks losing Rafale contract in India | Defenceradar News which in turn refer to a Russian source --- Arnaud Dubien, a Russia research associate at the Institut de relations Internationales et Strategiques.

From the Defenceradar site

The biggest repercussion would be a loss of reputation for France as a reliable supplier, Arnaud Dubien, a Russia research associate at the Institut de relations Internationales et Strategiques said. "Officials from the French Ministry of Defence, in private conversations acknowledge that if they fail to deliver the Mistral to Russia, then France will lose its contract to supply 126 fighter jets to India," Dubien said.

The key words are Loss of Reputation as Reliable Supplier.

A source in the Indian Defence Ministry said that India was "watching the developments closely." The source added it was too early to say if this would factor into the government's decision to sign a contract. "When such a large amount of money is paid and then a supplier uses geopolitics to delay or suspend deliveries, it does raise eyebrows,"

 

[pmaitra]

Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral

India has reported in early September that it would cancel the contract with Dassault for the delivery of 126 Gusts 20 to $ 22 billion if France refused to deliver the PCB Mistrals to Russia.

Translated from: Le BPC Vladivostok livré à la fin de la semaine?

A source in the Indian Defence Ministry said that India was "watching the developments closely." The source added it was too early to say if this would factor into the government's decision to sign a contract. "When such a large amount of money is paid and then a supplier uses geopolitics to delay or suspend deliveries, it does raise eyebrows," the source, who was not authorised to talk to the media, said. The Indian Ministry of Defence could not be immediately reached for official comment.

Source: Mistral row: France risks losing Rafale contract in India | Defenceradar News

Assuming the translation is correct: ". . . it would cancel . . ."

It said "would," not "will."

A preterite of the modal verb "will" aptly describes it. No manipulation there. Speculation? Yes.

 

[sob]

Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral

The first thing that hits you is that the source of this report is a Russian and then the coin drops and the picture becomes clear.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral

Source Russian or not, it is a matter of concern if India makes a payment and France takes the money and blocks the supplies due to arm twisting by the big bully.

India would be worried if in place of Russia, we had some other country.

 

[Zebra]

Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral

Source Russian or not, it is a matter of concern if India makes a payment and France takes the money and blocks the supplies due to arm twisting by the big bully.

India would be worried if in place of Russia, we had some other country.

Sir, what about Boeing Apache....?

 

[pmaitra]

Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral

Sir, what about Boeing Apache....?

Sir, I believe I have already answered it:

India does not trust the US.

Whatever India buys from the US, is insured. I am glad the policy makers and bureaucrats who make decisions take care of the details, unlike some folks who go ga-ga over US. This is not a criticism of the quality of efficacy of US arms, but a criticism of the tendency of the US government to arm-twist and bully others.

 

[Ray]

Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral

At best I think India may have informally sounded out France whether she would renegade on the Rafale deal if the geopolitical situation goes against India, as it has done with Russia.

India does not trust the US.

Whatever India buys from the US, is insured. I am glad the policy makers and bureaucrats who make decisions take care of the details, unlike some folks who go ga-ga over US. This is not a criticism of the quality of efficacy of US arms, but a criticism of the tendency of the US government to arm-twist and bully others.

It is not that India does not trust the US.

It is just that there are too many restrictive clauses on the use of military equipment that the US imposes like the following:

1. End Use Monitoring Agreement (EUMA).

2. Communications Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CIS MoA).

3. Mutual Logistic Support Agreement (MLSA)

All these three agreements were designed by the US Congress for ensuring American oversight, right-of-access and on-site inspection in client States.

 

[bhramos]

Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral

Mistral row: France risks losing Rafale contract in India | Russia & India Report

one more source

 

[pmaitra]

Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral

At best I think India may have informally sounded out France whether she would renegade on the Rafale deal if the geopolitical situation goes against India, as it has done with Russia.



It is not that India does not trust the US.

It is just that there are too many restrictive clauses on the use of military equipment that the US imposes like the following:

1. End Use Monitoring Agreement (EUMA).

2. Communications Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CIS MoA).

3. Mutual Logistic Support Agreement (MLSA)

All these three agreements were designed by the US Congress for ensuring American oversight, right-of-access and on-site inspection in client States.

Sir, you are correct about those three points.

IIRC, India had misgivings about the way the US took money from Pakistan (their so called ally) and kept them hanging. India was happy that those F-16 did not get delivered, but in such cases, promptly returning the money generates confidence. India does not have that confidence, and hence, chose to insure all purchases.

Related: Pakistan Asks U.S. to Send F-16s or Refund Its Money : Asia: Delivery was halted over concern about nuclear program. Issue certain to come up during Perry's visit. - Los Angeles Times

 

[Virendra]

Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral

Why is it that all the French deals are in soup lately?
Either the whole world is somehow ganged up against France, or the French are screwing things up.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral

Why is it that all the French deals are in soup lately?
Either the whole world is somehow ganged up against France, or the French are screwing things up.

Not all French deals. We are collaborating with Alstom. It is a smooth sailing. It is only the defence deals that are seeing the hiccups.

 

[Zebra]

Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral

@Ray Sir, not sure about that "Mutual Logistic Support Agreement (MLSA)" thing.

I mean pros-cons of it.

Please help us to understand it.

 

[sob]

Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral

Mistral row: France risks losing Rafale contract in India | Russia & India Report

one more source

This again is from the same Russian source, so far no independent verification. http://www.dp.ru/a/2014/09/04/Francija_riskuet_poterjat/

 

[bhramos]

Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral

This again is from the same Russian source, so far no independent verification. Франция рискует контрактом на поставку 126 истребителей в Индию из-за отказа отдать РФ "Мистраль"

well my first source was french rather then russian

 

[RAM]

Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral

Re: India ready to cancel Rafale, if France refuses to supply Mistral

1.Is this is a cue fromCurrent Indian political establishment adopting in marginally distancing away from the Mega deal to make way for Make in INDIA Policy on a diplomatic EXCUSE.

2.Is MoD skeptical about the lack of coherent response from French/Rafale in TOT and life cycle costs of aircraft while committing a Megdeal .??

3.Do Current Indian political establishment envisage and contemplate on an Identical Defence aviation industrial infrastructure akin to HAL than Investing on megadeal by adding more sukhois MKI to supplement current IAF squadron deficits??

Time will tell..