Know Your 'Rafale'

[ersakthivel]

The fact is Su-30 and Rafale carry similar loads and have similar range. Both are multi-role fighters.

LCA started as a point defense fighter but has transformed into a multi-role fighter, primarily due to IAF's own shifting priorities.

LCA Tejas can carry 3500 kg bombs and missiles and fly within combat radius of 500km at medium height just on internal fuel. This range is sufficient for both Western and Eastern theaters in the context of India, assuming any action on the eastern front is limited to the border area.

Su-30 is available for longer distance missions. For shorter distance, LCA Tejas suffices.

LCA Tejas can fill a lot of airbases like Srinagar, Pathankot, Udhampur and Leh where quantity will matter more than range.

I can list 20 airbases right here which need new fighters. How far "126 Rafale" will go? Treating Rafale as some sort of magical cure of all IAF's ills is blunder.

LCA never started off as point defence fighter. It is the import lobby planted media news carrying jounos who repeatedly parrot this disgusting lie. From the TD-1 to LSP-8 and SP-1 the fuel capacity of tejas has not increased by a liter. IOC-2 release document states that tejas can fly to distances over 1750 Km in combat. So when did tejas start off as point defence fighter?

tejas fuel fraction(weight of the fuel/empty weight of the fighter ) is comparable to any other modern fighter. In mk2 it is set to improve further. This was achieved by using significant amount of composites which weighs less for the volume they occupy compared to metal alloys, and they also give longer airframe life.

Please go to ADA tejas website and read Air marshal MSD Woolen's aeroindia 2001 article which clearly states that tejas was designed as multi role fighter with a naval version from the word go.

 

[ersakthivel]

Sorry for that



I think Su 30 is a Air Dominance/Superiority Fighter and LCA is a Trainer/Light Attack/Point Interceptor

What you need to do is to learn, not think!!!!!
If su-30 is a air dominance fighter in russian airforce , then what was the role of Mig-29 recon fighter or CAS fighter.
You dont even know the basic fact that heavy weight high load carrying long distance flying fighters are like Su-30 series are mainly used for strike and light weight , lesser range lower pay load carrying fighters like Mig-29 are used primarily for air defence.

Russia Has Air Superiority Fighters Like Su 35 , Su 27 ,Su 30 SM along with MiG 29 . For Interception they Use the MIG 31 Fox Hound , for Ground Attack and CAS Su 25 Frogfoot . And Penetration and Heavy Strike for Su 24 Fencer . for heavy Bombing Role They use the Su 34 . these are all fall in the Fighter category . they don't have a Multi role Aircraft . MiG is trying to Modernize MiG 35 as a Multirole But it's not Met the Requirements

the high wing loading flanker airframe started out as strike fighters not air dominance fighters. It was the failure of the MIG and the addition of thrust vectoring that has made them usable for air to air role also. Even then their elephant sized RCS when fully loaded means they have the disadvantage of being detected earlier than smaller RCS loaded fighters like mig-29 and tejas.

Their Threat is nothing They don't want to Go for Again ..their Mission is Intercepting and Escorting Civilian Planes and Bombing Terrorists Hideout in Somewhere in the Middle East or Africa




Both are different like Desktop and Laptop

tejas was designed as multi role from word go.
LCA never started off as point defence fighter. It is the import lobby planted media news carrying jounos who repeatedly parrot this disgusting lie. From the TD-1 to LSP-8 and SP-1 the fuel capacity of tejas has not increased by a liter. IOC-2 release document states that tejas can fly to distances over 1750 Km in combat. So when did tejas start off as point defence fighter?

tejas fuel fraction(weight of the fuel/empty weight of the fighter ) is comparable to any other modern fighter. In mk2 it is set to improve further. This was achieved by using significant amount of composites which weighs less for the volume they occupy compared to metal alloys, and they also give longer airframe life.

Please go to ADA tejas website and read Air marshal MSD Woolen's aeroindia 2001 article which clearly states that tejas was designed as multi role fighter with a naval version from the word go.

for more than two years you and a few friends of yours are repeating this soiled lie that tejas is a point defence /trainer /interceptor.
First list the fuel fraction, wing loading, radome dia , longer range BVr missiles, and thrust to weight ratio of all modern fighters in a neat tablet column and see how tejas scores.

Then you can see where tejas stands.

tejas has a combat radius of 500 Km even without the certification of central fuel tank in hot indian conditions where high ambient temp can sap 10 percent of engine thrust and 10 percent of wing lift.

It can fly 1750 km non stop in combat as per IOC-2 release without the certification of center line fuel tank.

It can carry all LGBs in IAF inventory and all long range BVr missiles with a radome dia bigger than even rafale.

Surely when brahmos mini is going to be developed tejas mk2 should be able to carry it, making it as potent as any strkie fighter in the world for long range stand off strikes.

With a couple of ASM two rafale s in their high temp high altitude indian ocean reunioin island flight took six total fuel loads and 10.5 hours to cross the 10,000 Km.
Please calculate the range and endurance for this flight and post.

So many MNC fighter makers can bluff fancy ranges and loads for their fighters in brochures, but reality is sobering, it is mostly like those fance mileage figures given for bikes under ,"test condition". In real world they dont apply.

I have already put this question to you three times you are still maintaining a well kept silence on this rafale's reunion flight range and endurance.

Then we will see which is a point defence fighter?

For your info I have already posted a HAL aeroindia 2013 poster which says that tejas has an endurance of 2.5 hours.Which point defence fighter has such endurance?

 

[sgarg]

Thank you @ersakthivel for the clarification.

My point is that the role of Su-30 and Rafale is nearly identical. Rafale may have lower RCS but RCS is not everything. When you face a determined and resourceful enemy like China, you need to think through a lot of factors.

Can Rafale fly over Pakistan unchallenged due to its low RCS or whatever. I have serious doubts.

We must be realistic. Su-30 is an expensive program to which IAF is already committed. A fleet of 272 Su-30 is a very sizable fleet. IAF does not need another elephant.

A $25M LCA is far more preferable to $130M Rafale, as it fills up empty airbases. Let LCA be a point defence fighter if IAF chooses to call it that way. IAF needs LOTS OF point defence fighters.

 

[Zebra]

ToT (training, machinery etc). Industrialization, indigenization etc. etc. And the fact is that we see so many numbers that noone really knows the price.
You are comparing with off the shelf purchase of F-18. Off the self cost of Rafale hsn't changed either. (except depreciation of rupee)

Sir, the price offered by all the companies in Indian MMRCA were off the shelf price?

If yes, then it will be news for me which I never know before.

BTW this Press Information Bureau English Releases, says something like these.....

...Under the terms of purchase, the first 18 aircraft will come in a 'fly away' condition while the remaining 108 will be manufactured under Transfer of Technology. The vendor finally selected would also be required to undertake 50% offset obligations in India. The ToT and offset contracts would provide a great technological and economic boost to the indigenous defence industries which would include Defence Public Sector Undertakings, Raksha Udyog Ratnas and other eligible private sector industries. Foreign vendors would be provided great flexibility in effecting tie up with Indian partners for this purpose.....

Now does it mean the red color part comes as part of MMRCA deal and there won't be any extra cost for it.

 

[sgarg]

Sir, the price offered by all the companies in Indian MMRCA were off the shelf price?

It is reasonable to assume that the price offered were off the shelf. However information came later about "unpriced items" in Rafale. We have already seen these "unpriced items" in T-90's case.

The cost of setting up a factory in India and the cost of maintenance of planes etc. may also be "unpriced items".

The problem is how you decide a winner of financial bids when major items are "unpriced".

 

[sgarg]

Sir, the price offered by all the companies in Indian MMRCA were off the shelf price?

It is reasonable to assume that the price offered were off the shelf. However information came later about "unpriced items" in Rafale. We have already seen these "unpriced items" in T-90's case.

The cost of setting up a factory in India and the cost of maintenance of planes etc. may also be "unpriced items".

The problem is how you decide a winner of financial bids when major items are "unpriced".

 

[Zebra]

@halloweene,

Price for F/A-18 for MMRCA was based on made in India aircrafts. I guess.

Indian MRCA competition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On 24 April 2008, Boeing submitted its 7000-page proposal to the Ministry of Defence through the US Embassy in New Delhi, before the 28 April deadline for the submission for proposals. The Super Hornet variant being offered to India, the F/A-18IN, is based on the F/A-18E/F model operated by the US Navy and being built for the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF). Raytheon's APG-79 AESA radar was offered on the aircraft. There would have been limited Transfer of Technology on the radar, up to the level approved by the US Government. However, Raytheon stated that the level of ToT offered would be compliant with the RFP requirements. Delivery of the first F/A-18IN Super Hornets could have begun approximately 36 months after contract award.

Boeing proposed joint manufacture of the jets with Indian partners. It also planned to offset the cost by setting up a US$100 million maintenance and training hub in Nagpur. This is the first time the Super Hornet has been offered for production in a foreign country. On 14 February 2008, Boeing and Tata Industries agreed to form a joint-venture company. The new entity formed in February 2008, will supply components for Boeing military aircraft, including the Super Hornet...

 

[Compersion]

There will be a significant amount of recompenses for India especially in foreign affairs and trade dimensions (UNSC, EU, Bilateral etc) going ahead with France if one apply game theory with the other choices.

 

[Zebra]

There will be a significant amount of recompenses for India especially in foreign affairs and trade dimensions (UNSC, EU, Bilateral etc) going ahead with France if one apply game theory with the other choices.

Sir, which "other choices"?

 

[sgarg]

There will be a significant amount of recompenses for India especially in foreign affairs and trade dimensions (UNSC, EU, Bilateral etc) going ahead with France if one apply game theory with the other choices.

If strategic relationship with France was the main logic, then India should have gone for a govt-to-govt deal rather than a tender. This is what I have been saying that this tender has been a joke. Years have gone by trialling and negotiating, yet there is no tangible outcome.

If India wants to be a client state forever, then it should behave like a client state.

Whatever India decides as the final outcome, it will be unfair to other parties as all the variables should have been known to all parties from the outset. Other parties may or may not protest. But the deal can still blow up as foreigners have a lot of leverage with affairs in India, as the ongoing Swiss bank saga proves. We have no idea who has which information about this deal.

 

[halloweene]

Ersakhtiviel,

HAL site mentions 300 kms, i was surprised myself while writing an article in french.

i hope i didn't make too many errors? If so please quote them to me!

le portail des passionnés de l'aviation: Le LCA Tejas indien sorti des turbulences?

When you refuel a plane, you (a) do not wait for fuel being very low for security reasons (b) not necessarily feed the up to max, considering they were anw flying alltogether (more fuel load increase lift and drag).

PS how do you know they were flying with a couple of AASM.? They were mimicking a nuke attack...

 

[sgarg]

Ersakhtiviel,

HAL site mentions 300 kms, i was surprised myself while writing an article in french.

You are referring to this:

Length:13.2 m

Span:8.2 m

Height:4.4 m

Max Take of Weight:13.5 t

Payload:5.3 t

Speed:1.6 M

Radius of Action:300 km

Takeoff distance:1700 m

Landing distance:1300 m

Service Ceiling:16 km
@ersakthivel can comment on these specs but some of it looks funny like radius of action, payload and service ceiling.
The takeoff distance and landing distance also look funny to me.

 

[LalTopi]

it's coming up to almost three years since Rafale was selected for one to one exclusive negotiations and deal finalisation. any thoughts on what is actually happening? presumably India must think that there is still a way forward with the deal - and be doing something about it -otherwise the deal would have been called off by now?

 

[sgarg]

@LalTopi, My view is TOT etc is all deception. This whole MMRCA tender is deception.
Saint Antony did not sign as he feared the deal would blow up which he could not afford before the election.
Now gullible BJP government is being arm twisted by IAF brass.

MMRCA is one final attempt to kill LCA Tejas project. The vested interests consider Tejas as too big a risk to their comfortable lifestyle.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

pl read this

MMRCA: Self Goal by IAF? | idrw.org

and all points of @ersakthivel seems to be coming true

 

[sgarg]

Radius of Action:300 km

My source confirms that 300 km range is possible only if the load carried is 5300 kg max load, causing fuel load to drop to roughly 60% of full internal fuel load. Means the plane has no external fuel tanks and 60% internal fuel.

The plane has 500 km radius of action with 3500kg load and internal fuel only. With external fuel and lower weapons weight, for example centerline fuel tank, 4 500kg bombs, and 2 WVR a-to-a missiles, the radius of action is more that 800km.

LCA Tejas is better strike platform compared to Jaguar due to a range of factors.

 

[SajeevJino]

Radius of Action:300 km

My source confirms that 300 km range is possible only if the load carried is 5300 kg max load, causing fuel load to drop to roughly 60% of full internal fuel load. Means the plane has no external fuel tanks and 60% internal fuel.

The plane has 500 km radius of action with 3500kg load and internal fuel only. With external fuel and lower weapons weight, for example centerline fuel tank, 4 500kg bombs, and 2 WVR a-to-a missiles, the radius of action is more that 800km.

So Rafale can carry 5 Tons Bomb Load and Drop it over 300 KM ..that's Good for Carpet Bombing Run over Enemy Forward Bases and Destroy their Command and Control Center

and I sure in lo lo lo Mode Rafale can destroy Almost all Early warning Networks and SAM networks along the Border ..A Single Rafale Squadron is enough


More than 3 Tons means 500 KM's .. Rafale can carry 1000 Kg Bombs so Three 1000 Kg Bombs with a Democlues Pod ..enough for Infrastructures . I sure in this Config Rafale should Need Escorts ..Of course Lo Hi Lo


Four 500 Kg Bombs and two MICA IR and Two METOR BVR .Rafale Combat Radius is 800 KM ..that means nearly Covers entire Bakistan .

Released by Dassult

.

Combat Radius of Rafale in Heavy Configuration

2 MICA IR
2 METEOR
6 LGB/PGM
3 Drop Tanks
1 Navigation POD

Nearly 1300 KM ..

LCA Tejas is better strike platform compared to Jaguar due to a range of factors.

You don't know about Jaguar ..that's why you are Comparing it to LCA

 

[sgarg]

So Rafale can carry 5 Tons Bomb Load and Drop it over 300 KM ..that's Good for Carpet Bombing Run over Enemy Forward Bases and Destroy their Command and Control Center

and I sure in lo lo lo Mode Rafale can destroy Almost all Early warning Networks and SAM networks along the Border ..A Single Rafale Squadron is enough

More than 3 Tons means 500 KM's .. Rafale can carry 1000 Kg Bombs so Three 1000 Kg Bombs with a Democlues Pod ..enough for Infrastructures . I sure in this Config Rafale should Need Escorts ..Of course Lo Hi Lo

Four 500 Kg Bombs and two MICA IR and Two METOR BVR .Rafale Combat Radius is 800 KM ..that means nearly Covers entire Bakistan .

You don't know about Jaguar ..that's why you are Comparing it to LCA

You have misunderstood my post. My post was with respect to HAL's specs on LCA, not Rafale.
Any worthwhile target in Pakistan is within 200km range (max) from Indian border. Most of the Indian airbases on Western side are around 100km or less from the border. So our 300km range LCA is quite capable of reaching these targets.

What I don't know about Jaguar, please tell??

 

[SajeevJino]

You have misunderstood my post. My post was with respect to HAL's specs on LCA, not Rafale.
Any worthwhile target in Pakistan is within 200km range (max) from Indian border. Most of the Indian airbases on Western side are around 100km or less from the border. So our 300km range LCA is quite capable of reaching these targets.

----

What I don't know about Jaguar, please tell??

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-air-force/58691-suitable-jaguar-replacement-3.html

 

[sgarg]

Low level flying has become very dangerous due to heavy number of portable SAMs and low level planes are also very susceptible to ground fire.

Jag has under-powered engines (talk about IAF rant about LCA engines) which makes it unsuitable for mountainous terrain where most of the action in war is going to be.

Why Jags did not do the heavy bombing in Kargil??

Quick reactions SAMs in PAF's inventory are no help for Jags.

LCA Tejas is the best replacement for Jaguar, no doubt about it.