Know Your 'Rafale'

[ersakthivel]

Who needs to down the FGFA? | idrw.org

 

[biswaranjanrath.sipu]

India is still laging behind many nations in producing AESA radar,advance EW suits ,modern avionics for which it depends heavily on foreign nations .even our kaveri engine now become a myth .so if iaf utilize some parts of these huge 30 billion dollar in R&D ,then at least 80% component for tejas can be developed indigenously .apart from that 126 no of su 30 mki will cost roughly around 10 billion dollars.so iaf can utilise the remaining fund in faster development of hal LCA mk 2 and Hal AMCA .even they can use the remaining fund for other projects like procurement of AWACS, refueling aircrafts, rustom 2 UAV,more no of special operation aircraft like c130j etc.total procurement cost of 126 Rafale will be nearly 30 billion so within this amount iaf can buy 400 no.s of su 30 mki aircraft ( or more than 500 no.s of combination of both su 30 mki and LCA mk 2). No doubt that mmrca was a prosperous and ambitious project for iaf during 2001-02 with procurement cost of 10 billion but now the situation is different. Now LCA mk 2 and fgfa will be ready in 2-3 and 5-7yr respectively. So after reading all these things, just tell me should not we give a chance to our indigenous product rather than giving a huge amount to a foreign nation .

 

[sgarg]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

French yes that can be done i believe but what I think is we can exploit Russia in a better way now.... they need us badly ....
We can get all knowledge force Russian to share everythin related to FGFA even engine..... we r already paying for it why not exploit it totally...?

The short answer is West does not want to give aviation technology to India.
Why Mirage-2000 upgrade is so expensive. Because HAL is a pure screw-driver play in the case of Mirage-2000.
Contrast with Russian fighters where India could do Mig-27 upgrade itself.

 

[sgarg]

India is still laging behind many nations in producing AESA radar,advance EW suits ,modern avionics for which it depends heavily on foreign nations .even our kaveri engine now become a myth .so if iaf utilize some parts of these huge 30 billion dollar in R&D ,then at least 80% component for tejas can be developed indigenously .apart from that 126 no of su 30 mki will cost roughly around 10 billion dollars.so iaf can utilise the remaining fund in faster development of hal LCA mk 2 and Hal AMCA .even they can use the remaining fund for other projects like procurement of AWACS, refueling aircrafts, rustom 2 UAV,more no of special operation aircraft like c130j etc.total procurement cost of 126 Rafale will be nearly 30 billion so within this amount iaf can buy 400 no.s of su 30 mki aircraft ( or more than 500 no.s of combination of both su 30 mki and LCA mk 2). No doubt that mmrca was a prosperous and ambitious project for iaf during 2001-02 with procurement cost of 10 billion but now the situation is different. Now LCA mk 2 and fgfa will be ready in 2-3 and 5-7yr respectively. So after reading all these things, just tell me should not we give a chance to our indigenous product rather than giving a huge amount to a foreign nation .

Defence R&D is not easy. Other nations have deployed several times the resources we have deployed to develop their weapons. The Congressi culture never favored local efforts. The imports were seen as cash generation vehicles.

You should be happy with whatever India has despite the massive problems in this country.

 

[sgarg]

MMRCA an Absolute Necessity - The New Indian Express
MMRCA an Absolute Necessity

The author is a serving Air Vice Marshal in the IAF. Email: [email protected]

This article is an example of writing in anger rather than writing coherently. The case presented for Rafale is hardly convincing.

The MMRCA was started in 2001 when the situation with Su-30 was far from clear. It is not 2001 in 2014. A lot has changed.

The economic growth prospects for India and corresponding increase in IAF budget have not materialized. The financial situation is not conducive to acquisition of Rafale.

IAF has options now which it did not have earlier, that is acquiring Su-30 additional to 272 contracted already. HAL has set up a huge factory to make these planes at a good rate.

The LCA is the MMRCA. IAF needs to get out of its blurry vision and accept the reality.

The Western countries in Europe and standardizing around just one multi-role fighter, while IAF wants three.

There is a good case for a long range bomber in IAF, which is something IAF has never advanced.

What kind of bombing can IAF achieve with Rafale?? Any heavy bombing specially at long distance can only be achieved with long range heavy bombers.

 

[SajeevJino]

This article is an example of writing in anger rather than writing coherently. The case presented for Rafale is hardly convincing.

The MMRCA was started in 2001 when the situation with Su-30 was far from clear. It is not 2001 in 2014. A lot has changed.

The economic growth prospects for India and corresponding increase in IAF budget have not materialized. The financial situation is not conducive to acquisition of Rafale.

IAF has options now which it did not have earlier, that is acquiring Su-30 additional to 272 contracted already. HAL has set up a huge factory to make these planes at a good rate.

The LCA is the MMRCA. IAF needs to get out of its blurry vision and accept the reality.

The Western countries in Europe and standardizing around just one multi-role fighter, while IAF wants three.

There is a good case for a long range bomber in IAF, which is something IAF has never advanced.

What kind of bombing can IAF achieve with Rafale?? Any heavy bombing specially at long distance can only be achieved with long range heavy bombers.

The author is a serving Air Vice Marshal in the IAF.

This is enough for Us ..How much IAF is needy for New Platform Different from Existing Platforms.

 

[sgarg]

The author is a serving Air Vice Marshal in the IAF.

This is enough for Us ..How much IAF is needy for New Platform Different from Existing Platforms.

What is enough for you? MMRCA is basically Western origin fighter that was conceptualized in the early days of induction of Su-30 when the status of Su-30 itself was far from clear. In 2001, LCA was far from a real fighter and Su-30 lacked many capabilities.

Things change with time. India has made a lot of progress in design and manufacturing since which is reflected today in Tata and Bharat Forge offering full fledged defence products like medium guns.

The story of India has not seeped into services culture. The services are seriously behind in thinking and ideology. This is where China wins.

 

[sgarg]

If IAF thinks that Chinese will get SCARED of Rafale, then there is some problem with IAF.

A major power takes pride in its own capability - the power of innovation and unity of its people. A nation that is always borrowing other's ideas cannot be called a major power. The services need to come out of the "poor and hungry India" story and start having pride and confidence in technical capabilities of their own countrymen.

 

[SajeevJino]

What is enough for you? MMRCA is basically Western origin fighter that was conceptualized in the early days of induction of Su-30 when the status of Su-30 itself was far from clear. In 2001, LCA was far from a real fighter and Su-30 lacked many capabilities.

Why would IAF call this MMRCA Tender . those western Countries are no more Hostile Countries Like in the WW2 period . they need a Fighter which Work in all Categorizes to save their Funds . Unlike other Countries they need every Kind of Fighters From Point Interception to Heavy Bombing Role

MMRCA Requirements always same ..But generation is Different Past Mirage Now Rafale That's all ..From 2001 IAF asking a Multi role Mission Aircraft


Comparing Su 30 and Rafale is surely a Non Sense ...One is true Air Dominance Fighter other designed to do all Major Strikes with Limited Capability in some fields

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

Draft of multi-billion dollar deal for 126 IAF fighter jets ready

Draft of multi-billion dollar deal for 126 IAF fighter jets ready

New Delhi: The draft agreement of the mega multi-billion dollar deal for proposed acquisition of 126 Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) with French company Dassault "running into 15,000 pages is almost ready," sources said on Wednesday, indicating that inking of the proposed deal could be the next biggest step by the Modi government in the defence sector.

Sources said the proposed deal could be inked by the end of this year or early next year adding that "negotiations are proceeding well" between India and France.

 

[sgarg]

Why would IAF call this MMRCA Tender . those western Countries are no more Hostile Countries Like in the WW2 period . they need a Fighter which Work in all Categorizes to save their Funds . Unlike other Countries they need every Kind of Fighters From Point Interception to Heavy Bombing Role

MMRCA Requirements always same ..But generation is Different Past Mirage Now Rafale That's all ..From 2001 IAF asking a Multi role Mission Aircraft


Comparing Su 30 and Rafale is surely a Non Sense ...One is true Air Dominance Fighter other designed to do all Major Strikes with Limited Capability in some fields

Please write clearly. I doubt you yourself understand what you write.

You fail to understand that Su-30 and LCA are both multi-role aircraft.

An example - Russia has standardized on Su-27 variants and Mig-29 variants for its air-force. It also has heavy bombers for long range requirements.

European countries are standardizing on just one multi-role fighter.

Rafale is practically in the same category as Su-30.

 

[SajeevJino]

Please write clearly. I doubt you yourself understand what you write.

Sorry for that

You fail to understand that Su-30 and LCA are both multi-role aircraft.

I think Su 30 is a Air Dominance/Superiority Fighter and LCA is a Trainer/Light Attack/Point Interceptor

An example - Russia has standardized on Su-27 variants and Mig-29 variants for its air-force. It also has heavy bombers for long range requirements.

Russia Has Air Superiority Fighters Like Su 35 , Su 27 ,Su 30 SM along with MiG 29 . For Interception they Use the MIG 31 Fox Hound , for Ground Attack and CAS Su 25 Frogfoot . And Penetration and Heavy Strike for Su 24 Fencer . for heavy Bombing Role They use the Su 34 . these are all fall in the Fighter category . they don't have a Multi role Aircraft . MiG is trying to Modernize MiG 35 as a Multirole But it's not Met the Requirements

European countries are standardizing on just one multi-role fighter.

Their Threat is nothing They don't want to Go for Again ..their Mission is Intercepting and Escorting Civilian Planes and Bombing Terrorists Hideout in Somewhere in the Middle East or Africa

Rafale is practically in the same category as Su-30.

Both are different like Desktop and Laptop

 

[sgarg]

Sorry for that



I think Su 30 is a Air Dominance/Superiority Fighter and LCA is a Trainer/Light Attack/Point Interceptor



Russia Has Air Superiority Fighters Like Su 35 , Su 27 ,Su 30 SM along with MiG 29 . For Interception they Use the MIG 31 Fox Hound , for Ground Attack and CAS Su 25 Frogfoot . And Penetration and Heavy Strike for Su 24 Fencer . for heavy Bombing Role They use the Su 34 . these are all fall in the Fighter category . they don't have a Multi role Aircraft . MiG is trying to Modernize MiG 35 as a Multirole But it's not Met the Requirements



Their Threat is nothing They don't want to Go for Again ..their Mission is Intercepting and Escorting Civilian Planes and Bombing Terrorists Hideout in Somewhere in the Middle East or Africa




Both are different like Desktop and Laptop

Can you back up your points with something more tangible - like specs?

 

[sgarg]

The fact is Su-30 and Rafale carry similar loads and have similar range. Both are multi-role fighters.

LCA started as a point defense fighter but has transformed into a multi-role fighter, primarily due to IAF's own shifting priorities.

LCA Tejas can carry 3500 kg bombs and missiles and fly within combat radius of 500km at medium height just on internal fuel. This range is sufficient for both Western and Eastern theaters in the context of India, assuming any action on the eastern front is limited to the border area.

Su-30 is available for longer distance missions. For shorter distance, LCA Tejas suffices.

LCA Tejas can fill a lot of airbases like Srinagar, Pathankot, Udhampur and Leh where quantity will matter more than range.

I can list 20 airbases right here which need new fighters. How far "126 Rafale" will go? Treating Rafale as some sort of magical cure of all IAF's ills is blunder.

 

[cobra commando]

Improved Safety Features in New Version Of Rafale Fighter

The French Air Force evaluated a new version of the Dassault Rafale fighter designated as the F3.4 plus with improved software and safety features. The evaluation was performed earlier this month by the French air force (FAF) integrated flight test team (EIEV) and the Rafale program office at the air force operational trials unit (CEAM), French media reported quoting an FAF release. The F3.4 plus standard includes many software improvements such as improved capture and conversion of NATO standard geographical coordinates which save time and reduce crew workload. A new instrument has been installed which allows pilots to better evaluate the aircraft's attitude.
It will sound an alarm when it detects an unusual position. During the take-off phase, another alarm will ensure the aircraft does not exceed the maximum load that can be handled by its landing gear brakes. In addition, the F3.4 plus standard introduces a new control to shift in real time from radar mode to digital mapping, while in terrain following mode. During the evaluation phase, which comprised 20 flight hours, pilots from CEAM and EIEV defined the boundaries of the expanded flight envelope before revising the operational flight manual. The new F3.4 plus standard of Rafale should enter operational service in early 2015, the release said.
Improved Safety Features in New Version Of Rafale Fighter

 

[Zebra]

Rafale Jet Deal with France Next on Modi Government's Radar - The New Indian Express

By Pradip R Sagar
Published: 30th October 2014

....Officials claim that in 2007, when the tender was floated, the cost of the programme was $12 billion (Rs 42,000 crore). When the lowest bidder was declared in January 2012, the cost of the deal shot up to $18 billion (Rs 90,000 crore). And now with inclusion of transfer of technology, life cycle cost and creating Assembly line, the deal has crossed a whopping $20 billion....

1) The original tender price in 2007 was far less. Please don't bluff.

2) Still I am not getting the price escalation drama here.

The point is why price escalation happens in Rafale only and at the same time price of F/A-18 E/F remain same.

 

[halloweene]

ToT (training, machinery etc). Industrialization, indigenization etc. etc. And the fact is that we see so many numbers that noone really knows the price.
You are comparing with off the shelf purchase of F-18. Off the self cost of Rafale hsn't changed either. (except depreciation of rupee)

 

[sgarg]

@halloweene, Any idea about Euro prices for different items?

 

[halloweene]

Absolutely no. I can give you the off the shelf price of Rafale (around 60 million euros), thats all, sorry.
The calculation is very complex, as it depends on every subcontractor. If i get an idea i'll tell you.
What i was told is that Rafale cost with training systems, initial spare parts, documentation etc. is around 85 M€. Of course it depends on extent of the order.
Sry i can't be more precise.

 

[ersakthivel]

1) The original tender price in 2007 was far less. Please don't bluff.

2) Still I am not getting the price escalation drama here.

The point is why price escalation happens in Rafale only and at the same time price of F/A-18 E/F remain same.

For the past seven or eight years wetern economies are battling the frightening prospect of deflation, not inflation.

Even if you add up the cumulative inflation in western economies after 2008 economic crisis is well be,ow 15 percent.

So there is no justification for price increase.

The failure to evaluate the MMRCA fighters within the date of the financial bids is what bharath karnard referred to as scam.

Or else the then GOI could have asked contenders to submit a financial bid that expires at around 2010 and set some preconditions pertaining to technology which would have reduced the number of contenders, and done the evaluation well before 2010.

It is something that needs to be investigated.