Know Your 'Rafale'

[halloweene]

@halloweene

Do you have the link for the German news report which said the Typhoon program is over Euro 90 Billion now? Can you post it if you do?

links in this article (in french) for german and uk audit offices La Cour des comptes allemande pointe le dérapage des coûts liés à l'avion Eurofighter - Zone Militaire

 

[halloweene]

Faulty manufacturing of Eurofighter?

Germany: Eurofighter Has Manufacturing Fault | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[p2prada]

we have always been looted on these small misc items

Give me proof.

EFT as evaluated by IAF meets IAF requirements

True. But negotiations go beyond requirements.

the same is applicable to EFT and the german offer also

And they won't loot us? Especially when it is painfully obvious Typhoon is more expensive?

No this is your Rafale prem speaking

If the Dasault is so worried about us why dont it give us rafale at lower prices ?

The price they are giving us is the lowest possible price for Rafale. Check the price of Rafales in the senate article Halloweene posted. And IAF Rafales appear to be more advanced.

why was it dilly dallying for 1 year to make HAL partner ?

Why was it not ready to work with HAL ?

What do you think the reason is?

the thing is they got confident that they can dictate terms after being declared L1 and didnt anticipate counter offers from EFT / SAAB

Unit prices remain the same. France cannot increase prices arbitrarily. They can only put new prices on new equipment. The cost of the engines, airframe and majority of the electronics will remain the same as the bid.

The counter offers from EADS and SAAB do not influence the pricing on Rafale.

forget MMRCA

Let's disband the air force entirely.

Buy 60 Super Su30MKi (still cheaper than Rafale) + 60 Su34MKI + increase tejas Mk1 orders to 80 (40 + 40) + Tejas Mk2 to 189 (83+106)

Are you aware you don't know what you are talking about?

Where is the second supply line?

Can LCA carry 9.5 tonnes of payload? And is LCA survivable? Can LCA carry Brahmos? Can LCA drop nukes? The answer to all is a very big NO.

And we can't just outright buy Super Sukhois. It will take us at least 10 years or more to fully adapt the existing squadron to Super Sukhoi standards. We will most likely upgrade the Su-30 at the rate of 2 per month. With 270 aircraft, we will take 11.25 years. And 2 per month is not guaranteed, it could be lesser. So if the process has started this year, then it will end only in 2026-27. If we order 126 more Su-30, and then apply the upgrade after 2026, then it will take another 6 years. So, all Su-30s will be upgraded only in 2032, most likely 2035 including all the technological and bureaucratic delays. The point behind the Rafale deal is to get an equally capable aircraft within the next 10 years, and not in 2035, that's 20 years away. By then Su-30 will be entirely pointless because we will be talking about upgrading the FGFA, Super FGFA. So what you say about ordering more Su-30 is impossible. The IAF knows all of this very clearly, and what they are doing today is correct. Even their future is planned out.

So the upgrade of the Su-30 and induction of Rafale will happen in parallel. That saves time and keeps the IAF at a higher level. And this ensures a second supply line in case of problems. For eg: Just a few years ago the entire Su-30 fleet was grounded due to an FBW issue. Nobody likes being grounded, especially during war. So in case Su-30s do get grounded, Rafales continue flying and viceversa. If we have only Su-30s and they are grounded, then we could as well just disband the air force.

I support the Rafale induction because of the above points and because of the capability of the PLAAF. It isn't some juvenile prem for Rafale like you have assumed. I have logical points for every little thing I support.

Also LCA's price is being underestimated. It is well over $30 Million and that's just unit price. LCA MK1 FOC squadron costs $1 Billion. And this price is from 2007. You have to add inflation of over 4% and also cost of other newly added items like the refueling probe. And this is not the total procurement cost.

Basically the cost of LCA Mk1 IOC as initially ordered was 150 Crores each. Today the cost is well over 200 Crores. The initial cost of LCA Mk1 FOC was Rs 300 Crores. What makes you think it will only cost 300 Crores each in the next 3 years? Costs only increase.

 

[p2prada]

links in this article (in french) for german and uk audit offices La Cour des comptes allemande pointe le dérapage des coûts liés à l'avion Eurofighter - Zone Militaire

Okay, so they have jacked it up to Euro 60 Billion and people here expect them to give a discount. So, that's Euro 430 Million per aircraft for its entire lifecycle, or $600 Million per jet. That's roughly 5-6 times the unit cost. What a bad joke.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Give me proof.



True. But negotiations go beyond requirements.



And they won't loot us? Especially when it is painfully obvious Typhoon is more expensive?



The price they are giving us is the lowest possible price for Rafale. Check the price of Rafales in the senate article Halloweene posted. And IAF Rafales appear to be more advanced.



What do you think the reason is?



Unit prices remain the same. France cannot increase prices arbitrarily. They can only put new prices on new equipment. The cost of the engines, airframe and majority of the electronics will remain the same as the bid.

The counter offers from EADS and SAAB do not influence the pricing on Rafale.



Let's disband the air force entirely.



Are you aware you don't know what you are talking about?

Where is the second supply line?

Can LCA carry 9.5 tonnes of payload? And is LCA survivable? Can LCA carry Brahmos? Can LCA drop nukes? The answer to all is a very big NO.

And we can't just outright buy Super Sukhois. It will take us at least 10 years or more to fully adapt the existing squadron to Super Sukhoi standards. We will most likely upgrade the Su-30 at the rate of 2 per month. With 270 aircraft, we will take 11.25 years. And 2 per month is not guaranteed, it could be lesser. So if the process has started this year, then it will end only in 2026-27. If we order 126 more Su-30, and then apply the upgrade after 2026, then it will take another 6 years. So, all Su-30s will be upgraded only in 2032, most likely 2035 including all the technological and bureaucratic delays. The point behind the Rafale deal is to get an equally capable aircraft within the next 10 years, and not in 2035, that's 20 years away. By then Su-30 will be entirely pointless because we will be talking about upgrading the FGFA, Super FGFA. So what you say about ordering more Su-30 is impossible. The IAF knows all of this very clearly, and what they are doing today is correct. Even their future is planned out.

So the upgrade of the Su-30 and induction of Rafale will happen in parallel. That saves time and keeps the IAF at a higher level. And this ensures a second supply line in case of problems. For eg: Just a few years ago the entire Su-30 fleet was grounded due to an FBW issue. Nobody likes being grounded, especially during war. So in case Su-30s do get grounded, Rafales continue flying and viceversa. If we have only Su-30s and they are grounded, then we could as well just disband the air force.

I support the Rafale induction because of the above points and because of the capability of the PLAAF. It isn't some juvenile prem for Rafale like you have assumed. I have logical points for every little thing I support.

Also LCA's price is being underestimated. It is well over $30 Million and that's just unit price. LCA MK1 FOC squadron costs $1 Billion. And this price is from 2007. You have to add inflation of over 4% and also cost of other newly added items like the refueling probe. And this is not the total procurement cost.

Basically the cost of LCA Mk1 IOC as initially ordered was 150 Crores each. Today the cost is well over 200 Crores. The initial cost of LCA Mk1 FOC was Rs 300 Crores. What makes you think it will only cost 300 Crores each in the next 3 years? Costs only increase.

Do you have any problems in buying EFT IF they are cheaper by 1 bilion Euros than Rafale ?

 

[p2prada]

Do you have any problems in buying EFT IF they are cheaper by 1 bilion Euros than Rafale ?

If, hypothetically speaking, EFT is a Billion cheaper, even then Rafale is the better option. It is a superior bird "for us."

Think of it this way, whatever advantages Rafale has over other jets will come into use later in the future also. Whatever advantages EF holds over other jets, including Rafale, FGFA will overwhelmingly surpass it. Rafale will continue complementing the FGFA in roles the FGFA is not designed for while EF will become a useless burden after 2030 due to its design limits compared to FGFA. So the extra Billion that Rafale will cost is not a loss over the entirety of its lifecycle while EF will be surpassed in just a few years in all its roles by the FGFA.

Rafale can carry massive payloads and fly over to very long ranges. EF has to sacrifice payload for range or viceversa. For eg, when carrying SCALP/Brahmos-M/Nirbhay/KH-31, Rafale can carry two or three missiles along with two or three drop tanks. EF is restricted to carrying only one or two missiles with just one or two tanks. The reason is because Rafale has five heavy/wet points while EF has only three heavy/wet points.

Now, some critics will say EF can carry CFTs. EF can indeed carry CFTs to offset the difference in range when carrying heavy payloads, but Rafale can do that too. And Rafale has already been flight tested with CFTs, all IAF has to do is place an order whereas the Typhoon's CFTs haven't seen any type of development to date. So, who has to pay for that? India? That billion dollar advantage is useless because a lot of capabilities found on Rafale today is non-existent on EF. India will end up having to pay part or whole of the development costs, especially for India-specific development. That is not such a big problem with Rafale.

Another big advantage of Rafale is its ability to drop nuclear bombs. ALA has a requirement for nuclear strike, the same as India. EF is not prepped to handle nuclear missions.

Then I don't want to get into the geopolitical advantages of dealing with France over the other 4 countries who will sanction us at the drop of a hat. Germany is the least trusted nation for us.

You see, in the beginning I mentioned Rafale is better "for us." These points are big factors that only apply to India. Long range, large payload, nuclear strike and diplomacy. If you consider other advantages for EF that other countries have, those advantages will not necessarily apply to us. Even if EF progressively becomes superior to Rafale in air to air capabilities, which I'm sure it eventually will, it doesn't matter to us. We shouldn't choose something based on just one or two points. A Billion is an extremely paltry amount considering the advantages Rafale has over EF "for us."

Coming back to reality, EF is much more expensive than a Billion compared to Rafale. And choosing EF over Rafale is an extremely stupid decision for us to make. EF is simply a less capable and less developed aircraft compared to Rafale in the roles that matter to us.

 

[ersakthivel]

Hhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!

IAF shortlisted both typhoon and rafale as equally good.

And when the financial bid was opened rafale bid low, thats why it was selected. nothing else.

IAF did not say rafale is better than typhoon.

In case typhoon quoted a lower price it would have won the bid in place of rafale.

What will IAF fanboys say then?

will they say by shortlisting and choosing the inferior typhoon for MMRCA both IAF and GOI made the wrong choice!!!!!

If FGFA can overwhelm and surpass typhoon then it can surpass rafale as well.

Thats why this whole MMRCA circus is a waste of precious resources. Instead of ordering 300 plus tejas mk1s and mk2s with 30 plus an year production capacity line to replace all the migs and jags and concentrating its effort and resources on FGFA and AMCA IAF is wasting it on MMRCA.

because MMRCA can never justify its price in a decades time compared to FGFA which will join the fleet by 2025 -2030 time. (even faster if IAF goes for russian PAKFA version and upgrades it later to FGFA like SUPER SUKHOI upgrades!!!!)

 

[The Last Stand]

I call BS when I see it. There is no way the F-35 will ever match the Typhoon or Rafale in air to air. So, the test pilot here is clearly lying. Test pilots have their own agendas, and that's to push company wares on the users, hence can never be trusted completely unless it is verified by an air force, be it the air force of any country.

This is off-topic, but why can't the F-35 match the Typhoon or the Rafale?

 

[p2prada]

This is off-topic, but why can't the F-35 match the Typhoon or the Rafale?

In terms of performance, the F-35 is at the same level as the F/A-18 or the F-16. It does not have the speed, maneuverability, climb rates, Gs, turn rates etc compared to the Eurocanards. It is probably good in subsonic acceleration, but that's about it. It is simply a fat duck. While the F-35A manages to pull 9G, the other two variants are stuck at 7 and 7.5G. Rafale comfortably pulls up to 11G.

Of course this applies to air to air loadouts only. With air to ground loadouts, other 4th gen aircraft are restricted in performance while the F-35 is not in some cases. While I find myself agreeing to this, I completely disagree with Bill Flynn's comments about the air to air loadouts. That simply doesn't make sense. Somebody needs to give him a back seat ride on one of the larger Eurocanards.

Companies peddle their wares. It is not unsurprising to see such comments even by officials.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Coming back to reality, EF is much more expensive than a Billion compared to Rafale. And choosing EF over Rafale is an extremely stupid decision for us to make. EF is simply a less capable and less developed aircraft compared to Rafale in the roles that matter to us.

so you mean to say

either

IAF is stupid and dosent know how to evaluate an Air craft - if you say yes then it explains IAF approach to LCA Tejas - they dont know shit about AC evaluation

or

IAF dosent know its own requirements because they qualified an AC - EFT which dosent fulfill thier requirements properly

which is it according to you

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

If, hypothetically speaking, EFT is a Billion cheaper, even then Rafale is the better option. It is a superior bird "for us."

would you and people like you who think we should buy Rafale wven if its costly FUND the difference from your pockets ?

I am not interested in costly proposition of Rafale

IF EFT is cheaper lets Buy EFT

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Think of it this way, whatever advantages Rafale has over other jets will come into use later in the future also. Whatever advantages EF holds over other jets, including Rafale, FGFA will overwhelmingly surpass it. Rafale will continue complementing the FGFA in roles the FGFA is not designed for while EF will become a useless burden after 2030 due to its design limits compared to FGFA. So the extra Billion that Rafale will cost is not a loss over the entirety of its lifecycle while EF will be surpassed in just a few years in all its roles by the FGFA.

You mean to say Rafale is equal to or better than FGFA ?

wont FGFA overtake rafale too ?

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Rafale can carry massive payloads and fly over to very long ranges. EF has to sacrifice payload for range or viceversa. For eg, when carrying SCALP/Brahmos-M/Nirbhay/KH-31, Rafale can carry two or three missiles along with two or three drop tanks. EF is restricted to carrying only one or two missiles with just one or two tanks. The reason is because Rafale has five heavy/wet points while EF has only three heavy/wet points.
Another big advantage of Rafale is its ability to drop nuclear bombs. ALA has a requirement for nuclear strike, the same as India. EF is not prepped to handle nuclear missions.

if we required longer range why IAF didnt set selection criteria for that range ?

if we require longer range lets higher payload increase order for su30MKI
or buy Su34MKI

for nuclear bombs we have 272 Su30MKi and some 52 Upgraded Mirages

how many more aircraft do you need to drop nuke bombs

what are agni etc for showpiece ? when we want to drop nukes ?

 

[p2prada]

so you mean to say

either

IAF is stupid and dosent know how to evaluate an Air craft - if you say yes then it explains IAF approach to LCA Tejas - they dont know shit about AC evaluation

or

IAF dosent know its own requirements because they qualified an AC - EFT which dosent fulfill thier requirements properly

which is it according to you

None of those.

IAF has always wanted Rafale. L1 is a disease created by the UPA.

EF fulfills all the MRCA requirements since the aircraft was shortlisted, just that Rafale is simply the better aircraft. As far as MRCA is concerned, IAF got the aircraft that they wanted at the cheapest price possible. So the program itself is a success as long as it is signed and delivered.

IAF got lucky that Rafale was cheaper than EF.

would you and people like you who think we should buy Rafale wven if its costly FUND the difference from your pockets ?

I am not interested in costly proposition of Rafale

IF EFT is cheaper lets Buy EFT

Let's just accept that you don't know what you are talking about.

And EF is more expensive. That was already established. There is no discount. And after we learned about the manufacturing defects, it seems like they are throwing their aircraft away. They are trying to cheat us. Are you that naive?

You mean to say Rafale is equal to or better than FGFA ?

wont FGFA overtake rafale too ?

FGFA isn't meant to penetrate air defenses at 100 feet like Rafale is. FGFA/MKI/EF have different roles. Rafale/Jaguar/Mig-27 have different roles. The only difference being Rafale is capable of air superiority roles as well.

You need to understand your own question first. Talking about aircraft is not simple.

if we required longer range why IAF didnt set selection criteria for that range ?

As usual you miss the forest for the trees.

if we require longer range lets higher payload increase order for su30MKI
or buy Su34MKI

Who said we only needed range? MRCA had 643 parameters, range is just one of them. Can you explain how Su-34 will fulfill all 643 parameters?

We need a second supply line. How does MKI or Su-34 create a second supply line? Explain.

MRCA came with a 30 tonnes MTOW limit. Su-30/34 was never a requirement. The first rule of the MRCA was, we don't want Su-30/34. So keep both aircraft out of the discussion.

for nuclear bombs we have 272 Su30MKi and some 52 Upgraded Mirages

The M-2000s will be out of service by 2030-35, Rafales will see service until 2050 or 2060.

MKI isn't capable of nuclear strike missions.

what are agni etc for showpiece ? when we want to drop nukes ?

Ever heard of the term nuclear triad?

We need multiple options for nuclear delivery and this includes a strike package based on fighter jets. Otherwise the French have better cruise missiles and ballistic missiles than we do along with superior platforms that carry them.

Rafale is a done deal. EF has no chance for making a comeback. Get over it.

 

[power_monger]

While the F-35A manages to pull 9G, the other two variants are stuck at 7 and 7.5G. Rafale comfortably pulls up to 11G.

Question is can pilots pull a 11G? humans at max can endure a max of 9G.Anything above it is a certified waste.

 

[sgarg]

It seems IAF wanted Rafale, so its cost was manipulated by omitting many MUST HAVE items.

This has made a mockery of the whole tender process. Dasault played along with IAF, now both are stuck.

The government is in knots as it cannot resolve the situation. The IAF keeps pushing for Rafale - that shows how little faith IAF has in the tender process. IAF believes in flouting all rules.

 

[p2prada]

Question is can pilots pull a 11G? humans at max can endure a max of 9G.Anything above it is a certified waste.

Yes. Well trained pilots can pull up to 12G. Astronauts pull 17G when the rocket escape system is activated. When pilots eject from aircraft, they are pulling close to 25G.

Pic of Rafale pulling 10G.

 

[p2prada]

It seems IAF wanted Rafale, so its cost was manipulated by omitting many MUST HAVE items.

This has made a mockery of the whole tender process. Dasault played along with IAF, now both are stuck.

The government is in knots as it cannot resolve the situation. The IAF keeps pushing for Rafale - that shows how little faith IAF has in the tender process. IAF believes in flouting all rules.

Stop talking when all you do is spout crap.

The other contenders could see what's in the bid. The requirements were common to all the contenders. If IAF has made a mockery of the process, then all other contenders would have appealed against it. Do you see even one country complaining? No. Then shut up.

You don't realize you are insulting the IAF for having successfully handled one of the most transparent and clean tenders in the world.

 

[Zebra]

Question is can pilots pull a 11G? humans at max can endure a max of 9G.Anything above it is a certified waste.

An Insight On Human Tolerance Of Vertical Axis G Force

 

[Zebra]

^^