Know Your 'Rafale'

[Dhairya Yadav]

Ukraine crisis: France halts warship delivery to Russia

This shows how trust worthy france is.Need to be double carefull in this deal. i mean if French deny support,then India can have complete rights over IP rights of the aircraft.

It means it delayed only. And as far as I know, France has no reason to deny India the Rafale. They have a lot at stake with India, such as Scorpenes and some equipment for Tejas .

 

[ersakthivel]

It means it delayed only. And as far as I know, France has no reason to deny India the Rafale. They have a lot at stake with India, such as Scorpenes and some equipment for Tejas .

"As far as I know" is not very comforting when you make a 20 billion dollar deal ,

 

[ersakthivel]

No US fighters or EW Planes Required

8 Rafale
2 Mirage 2000-5
2 French E 3
5 Air Refuel Plane

to carry out Strike From French Mainland and Return Safely to French Main Land

it's indicates about the AEWCS and Tankers Importance for Such long range Strike

Eurofighter Typhoon - Demon or Lemon?

The aircraft's counter air performance is cited as its major strength, and it is frequently cited to be "82% as effective as an F-22".

The magic 82% number is derived from a mid nineties DERA simulation against a postulated Su-35 threat. The number is based upon the rather unusual metric of "probability of successful engagement" in BVR combat, rating the F-22 at 91%, the Typhoon at 82%, the F-15F (single seat E) at 60%, the Rafale at 50% and the F-15C at 43%.

The probability of a successful engagement can be translated into the more commonly used metric of a kill ratio by making some reasonable statistical assumptions, and doing this yields about 10.0:1 for the F-22A, 4.6:1 for the Typhoon, 1.5:1 for the single seat F-15E, 1:1 for the Rafale and 0.75:1 for the F-15C.

So in the most common terms used, the Typhoon is by the DERA simulation about half as combat effective as the F-22A, about three times as combat effective as the F-15F, about five times as effective as the Rafale and 6 times as effective as the F-15C.

If we compare this with cited USAF claims rating the F-22A as 10-15 times as combat effective as the F-15C in BVR engagements, this means that the DERA study roughly agrees with USAF assessments of F-22A vs F-15C combat effectiveness. The detailed assumptions applied to this study have not been disclosed.

The validity of this study in today's environment must be questioned. Since its compilation the Russians have developed the NIIP-011M and Phazotron Zhuk-Ph phased arrays for the Su-27/30, the R-77M ramjet Adder, the extended range R-74 digital Archer, 2D and 3D thrust vectoring nozzles, higher thrust AL-31 engine derivatives, and active radar seekers for the R-27 Alamo, as well as fielding an anti-radiation variant of the Alamo.

The F-22A is likely to be shooting the ERAAM, and some USAF F-15Cs are being fitted with active phased arrays, with the likely prospect of getting ERAAMs as well, or even a ramjet AMRAAM variant. Therefore it is likely that most of the supporting assumptions used in the study are very stale, if not irrelevant. Until Typhoons are equipped with the AMSAR and Meteor, the projected 4.6:1 BVR kill ratio is by any measure optimistic, against an evolved Su-30 variant.

Clearly the Typhoon is robustly in the BVR lethality class of the F-15C/E, and the principal driver of relative effectiveness between these types will the radar and missile capabilities. Until the USAF field phased arrays and ERAAM or ramjet AAMs on the whole F-15 fleet (some aircraft are currently being retrofitted with APG-63(V)3 active phased arrays), the Typhoon will hold a decisive advantage. US longwave IRS&T technology is available off-the-shelf and would much reduce any advantage conferred by the PIRATE to the Typhoon.

The other important considerations in BVR combat are transonic and supersonic acceleration, persistence and sustained turn performance. While the latter are difficult to estimate, the former can be directly compared by looking at thrust/weight ratios.

The clean Typhoon, with 50% internal gas and 6-8 AAMs is firmly in the class of the F100-PW-229 powered F-15F, on dry thrust, and about 15% behind the F-15F on reheat. Where the Typhoon falls behind the F-15F is when its operating radius is stretched and additional external gas is being carried.

If we take a Typhoon with 3 x 1000L external tanks, and an F-15F with 2 x 600 USG external tanks, we have configurations which deliver very similar endurance and operating radius for a point intercept. In the latter situation, approaching the target, the Typhoon is around 12% behind the F-15F in critical reheated thrust/weight ratio.

If we compare a Typhoon with CFTs, 3 x 1000L external tanks against an F-15F with only CFTs, we get a shortfall of about 20% in thrust/weight ratio in addition to the drag penalty of the external tanks.

These are very approximate estimates, not accounting for combat gas, but even doing a very accurate simulation would yield the inevitable conclusion - an F/A-18 sized fighter, no matter how agile when clean, cannot compete in thrust/weight ratio with an F-15 sized fighter at extended operating radii.

Both rafale and Typhoon were shortlisted as fitting the bill by IAF in MMRCA tender.

So against chinese flankers Typhoon is more effective than rafale in this study.

And now there are reports that EADS is offering 20000 crore discount on TYPHOON.

The validity of this study in today's environment must be questioned. Since its compilation the Russians have developed the NIIP-011M and Phazotron Zhuk-Ph phased arrays for the Su-27/30, the R-77M ramjet Adder, the extended range R-74 digital Archer, 2D and 3D thrust vectoring nozzles, higher thrust AL-31 engine derivatives, and active radar seekers for the R-27 Alamo, as well as fielding an anti-radiation variant of the Alamo.

The comparative advantages of the Typhoon over the Su-27/30 family exhibit similar sensitivities to technology upgrades in the Sukhoi fighters. Fitted with a phased array, longwave IRS&T, carrying ramjet R-77M missiles, supported by SuAWACS, and using growth engines we must seriously question how great a lethality margin the Typhoon would hold against such a fighter. The Sukhoi, inevitably, exhibits the same thrust/weight ratio advantages the F-15 does in extended range combat, which was a design objective for this type as it was for the F-15.

The guy questions even the stated superiority of typhoon against flankers in the above quote.The description looks like that of Super sukhoi upgrade planed for Su-30 MKI.SO rafale will be even less competetive against super sukhoi.

So essentially rafale is not going to offer much than super sukhoi upgrades, if even the superiority of typhoon (which has the most powerful radar to better utlilize the ramjet meteor) over super sukhoi upgrade is questioned here.

The strength of the Typhoon is its very modern and comprehensive avionic package, especially that in the RAF variant, and its excellent agility when operated around its optimum combat radius of about 300 NMI (a figure to be found in older Eurofighter literature, which has since disappeared with the export drive to compete against the bigger F-15 and F-22).

So all the 9 ton carrying 3600 km combat range brochure bunkum is only good against libiyan and non afgan-taliban air force, because both typhoon and rafal are similar in many specs and both were shortlisted as fitting the bill by IAF MMRCA evaluation team!!!!

In reality the 300 NMI is the effective range!!!

So what is the rafale niche in IAF. WHy should we bleed 20 billion for a fighter that has nothing much over Super sukhoi upgrades?

In this scenario do you think can GOI justifiably buy rafale at a much higher cost than the discount offering typhoon?

http://www.ausairpower.net/air-superiority-3.html

Let us consider a generic small fighter, and a generic large fighter, each with weight, fuel loads, and installed thrust produced by averaging the values across each class (ie no possible vendor bias here, 3 current large fighters and 4 current small fighters, Western and Russian types inclusive). We end up with a large fighter with an empty weight of 32,600 lb, an internal fuel load of 23,500 lb, 40,000 lb of total dry SL thrust and 62,000 lb of reheated SL thrust, with a wing area of 706 square feet and fuel fraction of about 42%. Doing the same for the small fighter, we end up with an empty weight of 22,700 lb, an internal fuel load of 10,600 lb, 24,120 lb of total dry SL thrust and 36,700 lb of reheated SL thrust, with a wing area of 416 square feet and a fuel fraction of about 32%. Interestingly, for the statistically inclined, the variance on these parameters is not very big.

Assuming that the aircraft have a very similar lift to drag ratio and cruise at the same Mach number and the same SFC, then the ratio of relative range performance is given by the ratio of the natural logarithms of the ratios of total weight to empty weight, excluding stores. Plugging in these numbers yields a result which suggests that the large fighter will have about 40% better range. In practice the unrefuelled clean range advantage of a larger fighter varies between 10% and 50%, and should be roughly halved for combat radius.

if the range difference between 15 ton and 12 ton fighters is between 10 to 40 percent then , Is it justifiable to call rafale has a range thrice that of tejas as Air marshal barbora did?

 

[Punya Pratap]

No US fighters or EW Planes Required

8 Rafale
2 Mirage 2000-5
2 French E 3
5 Air Refuel Plane

to carry out Strike From French Mainland and Return Safely to French Main Land

it's indicates about the AEWCS and Tankers Importance for Such long range Strike

If you are to shell out 20 Billion plus than the only support aircraft required should be ONLY Awacs & Tankers...certainly not a soon to be decommissioned Mirage or Growlers for that matter

I wonder how effective is Spectra in such a context??

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

"As far as I know" is not very comforting when you make a 20 billion dollar deal ,

For us or for them? Its them who needs to be careful about this deal. They are still in this mess only because of that 20 billions .

 

[ersakthivel]

.

Damn Good Story about Rafale's plan to strike Assad's Chemical Stockpiles



Look If we have a Squad of Rafale with Storm Shadow's or Brahmos mini can do massive damage to Pakistan

thanks for the Story Olybrius



Il y a un an, 17 avions français devaient effectuer un raid contre la Syrie | L'Opinion

and China Yes Couple of Squads Makes kick Chinese A$$ Too hard

@Drsomnath999 @p2prada @halloweene Sir

* Theoretically, F-22A shall be able to detect / track Su-35 at the range of 285 to 440 km / 200 to 308 km away in head to head engagement.
* Theoretically, Su-35 shall be able to detect / track F-22A at the range of 29 to 48 km / 17 to 34 km away in head to head engagement.

* Theoretically, EF-2K shall be able to detect / track Su-35 at the range of 153 to 272 km / 107 to 163 km away in head to head engagement.
* Theoretically, Su-35 shall be able to detect / track EF-2K at the range of 150 to 256 km / 90 to 180 km away in head to head engagement.

* Theoretically, Rafale shall be able to detect / track Su-35 at the range of 87 to 130 km / 52 to 91 km away in head to head engagement.
* Theoretically, Su-35 shall be able to detect / track Rafale at the range of 150 to 203 km / 90 to 142 km away in head to head engagement.

F-22A / EF-2000 / Rafale versus Su-35BM - General F-22A Raptor forum

 

[Punya Pratap]

F-22A / EF-2000 / Rafale versus Su-35BM - General F-22A Raptor forum

So what you are pointing out to is that Rafale does nt have any edge over Su35??

Since we know China is going to buy Su35 ... Rafale shall get shot out of the sky even before it can detect the Su35 !!

Mighty fine waste of 22 Billion Us$ and mighty fine thinking on the part of Chinese who thought of buying the Su35 at a cheaper price than Rafale per unit to counter the IAF Rafales'

So much for not putting all eggs in one basket theory ... Lets not buy Russian any more but lets get our A$$ kicked by PLAAF Russian fighters !!

 

[p2prada]

That won't matter. F35 will still be more stealthy than B2 in strike missions.

B-2 is going to be the best until the arrival of LRS-B. F-35 is a tactical aircraft.

That was one of the major arguments for cancelling 2018 bomber.

The 2018 Bomber wasn't canceled, just renamed to Next Generation Bomber and then to LRS-B.

Boeing, Lockheed Martin Form New Bomber Team | AWIN content from Aviation Week

Btw, its written in the article that its likely that American planes provided support for electronic warfare, which plane would they use other than the Growler?

Yeah, Growler is the only option today.

The Americans always fly the Growler near conflict zones like Syria, there is no guarantee the particular mission used Growler support.

 

[p2prada]

So what you are pointing out to is that Rafale does nt have any edge over Su35??

Since we know China is going to buy Su35 ... Rafale shall get shot out of the sky even before it can detect the Su35 !!

The FGFA will kill the Su-35 well before the Su-35 is able to even begin fighting the Rafale.

And Super Sukhoi upgrade will take the Su-30MKI past the Su-35 anyway.

 

[Defcon 1]

B-2 is going to be the best until the arrival of LRS-B. F-35 is a tactical aircraft.



The 2018 Bomber wasn't canceled, just renamed to Next Generation Bomber and then to LRS-B.

Boeing, Lockheed Martin Form New Bomber Team | AWIN content from Aviation Week

Yes, I know that, however in 2012-13, when the program was more or less in a limbo, F35 was supposed to be the successor to B2 since Chinese advancements in anti stealth tech will soon make B2 obsolete over China. So I said that it will be more stealthy than B2. Even today LRSB and F35 are competing for funds. US also has a side program to give nuclear capability to F35. Even if tomorrow LRSB fails to take off, F35 will be the successor to B2.

Yeah, Growler is the only option today.

The Americans always fly the Growler near conflict zones like Syria, there is no guarantee the particular mission used Growler support.

I made my conclusion on the basis of the article which said that American aircraft were likely used. Anyways, American strike missions without stealth aircraft always use a combination of F15/F16, AWACS and Growler for support.

 

[Punya Pratap]

The FGFA will kill the Su-35 well before the Su-35 is able to even begin fighting the Rafale.

And Super Sukhoi upgrade will take the Su-30MKI past the Su-35 anyway.

Thanks p2prada. As per your script it looks like FGFA & Super Sukhoi's are the heros, Su 35 the villian and Rafale the damsel in distress that needs the hero's to handle the villian! The said damsel in distress however is the world's costliest purchase by a cash strapped country.

If we have to pay for the world's most expensive fighter aircraft than it's best to ensure that it is something that can thrash everything our enemies throw at us!!

 

[p2prada]

Yes, I know that, however in 2012-13, when the program was more or less in a limbo, F35 was supposed to be the successor to B2 since Chinese advancements in anti stealth tech will soon make B2 obsolete over China. So I said that it will be more stealthy than B2. Even today LRSB and F35 are competing for funds. US also has a side program to give nuclear capability to F35. Even if tomorrow LRSB fails to take off, F35 will be the successor to B2.

No, equating the B-2 with F-35 is impossible.

Just because it is stealthy doesn't make a tactical fighter the same as a strategic bomber.

B-52 is non-stealthy and so is the F-15E. Does that mean the F-15E will replace the B-52?

And B-2 is not obsolete. Comparatively, F-22's and F-35's stealth is less capable than the B-2.

 

[p2prada]

Thanks p2prada. As per your script it looks like FGFA & Super Sukhoi's are the heros, Su 35 the villian and Rafale the damsel in distress that needs the hero's to handle the villian!

Yes. The FGFA is going to take the top seat in our continent (maybe even the world), the Su-35 is just a stop gap arrangement for the PAKFA. It is like the Silent Eagle to the Raptor. Super Sukhoi will carry AESA which puts the aircraft in a much more favorable position compared to the Su-35. Their altitude, range and speed easily puts it in a different level compared to the Rafale. Also, the fact that the Su-35 numbers to be ordered by the Chinese is extremely low for it to be able to do anything.

And Rafale is meant for a completely different role. It can generate more sorties compared to the above fighters.

If we say the MKI/Su-35 and FGFA can manage one sortie a day, Rafale should be able to manage 3 sorties. If the FGFA is priced at $100 Million, then the price per sortie is more than three times that of Rafale, considering Rafale is also $100 Million. But the two types of aircraft perform different missions. So, the value of the mission is also important. Meaning, FGFA will perform missions Rafale cannot.

Rafale is known to be able to take on a Flanker within the strengths of its envelope, so we have little to be worried about if we have to fight Chinese Flankers, especially considering they have to take off from higher ground.

The said damsel in distress however is the world's costliest purchase by a cash strapped country.

Since when are we cash strapped? And Rafale isn't expensive as being made out to be. Why is that so difficult to understand? IAF should potentially be spending around $100 Billion on just fighters by the end of the next decade. Both Rafale and FGFA are less than half that amount.

Just to give you a rough comparison, the Russian defense budget is similar to ours when it comes to conventional forces. The Russians plan on spending $600-650 Billion in 9 years (from 2011 onwards). Out of this the VVS is set to receive around $150-200 Billion. This means if IAF is expected to spend at least $100 Billion in the next 15 years, the Russians plan to spend $100-150 Billion in just the next 5 years.

ITAR-TASS: Russia - Russia to spend $600 billion on state armaments program by 2020

What I am trying to say is the Indian spending is a pittance compared to what we can really achieve. Under Modi's rule we should be able to spend a lot more on defense in the next 5 years. Even if the Russians achieve half that figure, they are still spending more than India is.

We are not cash strapped.

If we have to pay for the world's most expensive fighter aircraft than it's best to ensure that it is something that can thrash everything our enemies throw at us!!

The F-35 isn't going to be part of the IAF. And FGFA may eventually be more expensive than the F-35. Comparatively Rafale will be significantly cheaper, especially the lifecycle costs compared to both F-35 and FGFA.

And China is also making their own set of most expensive fighters, and they are actually ahead.

 

[p2prada]

India's market cap stands at $1.5 trillion, can double in next 3-4 years: Analysts - The Economic Times

"India has grown faster in market cap from $1.1 to $1.5 trillion, which can double to $3-3.2 trillion by the end of 2016. This level would be at par with other emerging economies, say China, which has a market cap of $3.7 trillion," said A K Prabhakar, Independent Market Expert.

Who was saying we are cash-strapped?

 

[Punya Pratap]

Yes. The FGFA is going to take the top seat in our continent (maybe even the world), the Su-35 is just a stop gap arrangement for the PAKFA. It is like the Silent Eagle to the Raptor. Super Sukhoi will carry AESA which puts the aircraft in a much more favorable position compared to the Su-35. Their altitude, range and speed easily puts it in a different level compared to the Rafale. Also, the fact that the Su-35 numbers to be ordered by the Chinese is extremely low for it to be able to do anything.

And Rafale is meant for a completely different role. It can generate more sorties compared to the above fighters.

If we say the MKI/Su-35 and FGFA can manage one sortie a day, Rafale should be able to manage 3 sorties. If the FGFA is priced at $100 Million, then the price per sortie is more than three times that of Rafale, considering Rafale is also $100 Million. But the two types of aircraft perform different missions. So, the value of the mission is also important. Meaning, FGFA will perform missions Rafale cannot.

Rafale is known to be able to take on a Flanker within the strengths of its envelope, so we have little to be worried about if we have to fight Chinese Flankers, especially considering they have to take off from higher ground.



Since when are we cash strapped? And Rafale isn't expensive as being made out to be. Why is that so difficult to understand? IAF should potentially be spending around $100 Billion on just fighters by the end of the next decade. Both Rafale and FGFA are less than half that amount.

Just to give you a rough comparison, the Russian defense budget is similar to ours when it comes to conventional forces. The Russians plan on spending $600-650 Billion in 9 years (from 2011 onwards). Out of this the VVS is set to receive around $150-200 Billion. This means if IAF is expected to spend at least $100 Billion in the next 15 years, the Russians plan to spend $100-150 Billion in just the next 5 years.

ITAR-TASS: Russia - Russia to spend $600 billion on state armaments program by 2020

What I am trying to say is the Indian spending is a pittance compared to what we can really achieve. Under Modi's rule we should be able to spend a lot more on defense in the next 5 years. Even if the Russians achieve half that figure, they are still spending more than India is.

We are not cash strapped.



The F-35 isn't going to be part of the IAF. And FGFA may eventually be more expensive than the F-35. Comparatively Rafale will be significantly cheaper, especially the lifecycle costs compared to both F-35 and FGFA.

And China is also making their own set of most expensive fighters, and they are actually ahead.

Dear p2prada... first of all let me commend you for keeping the spirit of discussion alive. You have your point of view and so do I but its nice to have a healthy discussion.

I understand your view point that no expense is high enough for the nations defense and I appreciate your patriotism. I hope you understand my point of view when I say our country will be strongest when we are self reliant and we need to start taking steps NOW other wise we will never be able to catch up! Tejas is our salvation and I dont want to see the Marut drama unfold all over again.

As for ToT, let me assure you no one in this world...be it the Russians or French are going to hand over sensitive techs so we will have to find our own feet!!

As for being cash strapped please note our market cap is not the barometer of our economy coz our current account deficit is extremely high along with the inflation that has devalued our rupee to its lowest during the outgoing UPA govt tenure. We have to reduce the inflation and teh deficit and that has to be our PRIORITY 1. I hope you understand our dollar reserves suffers immensely when we go purchasing something as expensive as MMRCA. For your information India stands 3rd in the world when it comes to purchasing power parity that is why everyone wants to come do business with India but no one wants it to become a manufacturing hub coz then our domestic demand will be satisfied by domestic production.

The China that we see today was nt turned around over night same as Rome was not built in a day!! We have to start somewhere and that somewhere unfortunately is NOW other wise we will always stay a sellers market!!

Do you honestly believe France is going to hand over everything (AESA/M88 manufacturing techs) and are you willing to back them on MMRCA and the ToT stipulations??

If yes than I shall stop opposing MMRCA till the time you are proved wrong and French ToT turns out to be an eyewash !! Which I think it is same as ToT of T90 where we dint even get the Metallurgical composition of the Gun!!

P2prada I know you are in a well intention-ed habit of dismissing everything by labeling things as rumours/made up stories but the one lesson life has taught me is :

IF you wish to "understand" somebody find out his/her motives & you will know what they want from you....same applies on our country and what Russia/France's motives are and what they want from us!

 

[Punya Pratap]

Bharat Electronics forms JV company named ‘BEL-Thales Systems’ | idrw.org

So BEL-Thales have formed the JVC for the radars!!

 

[Zebra]

No to Rafale.

 

[p2prada]

As for ToT, let me assure you no one in this world...be it the Russians or French are going to hand over sensitive techs so we will have to find our own feet!!

The Russians have handed over all important technologies related to what we manufacture here. MKI, Brahmos, T-90 etc.

The French have made assurances, like Snecma made it public that 100% of the engine will be manufactured in India.

The China that we see today was nt turned around over night same as Rome was not built in a day!! We have to start somewhere and that somewhere unfortunately is NOW other wise we will always stay a sellers market!!

China's geopolitics and industry were completely different. Their economy is also entirely different.

Do you honestly believe France is going to hand over everything (AESA/M88 manufacturing techs) and are you willing to back them on MMRCA and the ToT stipulations??

Yes. They stick to contracts. They have handed over a lot of critical Scorpene ToT as well. They are in the process of handing over critical Mirage-2000 technologies as well, for the upgrade program.

The govt has announced that all ToT obligations from the French is already on paper and has been accepted.

Which I think it is same as ToT of T90 where we dint even get the Metallurgical composition of the Gun!!

Gun ToT was handed over to India in 2008. In 2009, we inducted the first set of tanks with the new gun. The tanks were ready before that, but IA rejected the tanks because the indigenously designed guns were faulty.

P2prada I know you are in a well intention-ed habit of dismissing everything by labeling things as rumours/made up stories but the one lesson life has taught me is :

My experience following the industry and the military has made it very easy for me to figure out which information is true and which is false.

 

[Punya Pratap]

The Russians have handed over all important technologies related to what we manufacture here. MKI, Brahmos, T-90 etc.

The French have made assurances, like Snecma made it public that 100% of the engine will be manufactured in India.



China's geopolitics and industry were completely different. Their economy is also entirely different.



Yes. They stick to contracts. They have handed over a lot of critical Scorpene ToT as well. They are in the process of handing over critical Mirage-2000 technologies as well, for the upgrade program.

The govt has announced that all ToT obligations from the French is already on paper and has been accepted.



Gun ToT was handed over to India in 2008. In 2009, we inducted the first set of tanks with the new gun. The tanks were ready before that, but IA rejected the tanks because the indigenously designed guns were faulty.



My experience following the industry and the military has made it very easy for me to figure out which information is true and which is false.

P2prada, Correct me if I m wrong but regarding MKI ToT we are still importing LRU's from Russia besides the kits for Radars & Engines.

As far as ToT goes and the host countries reluctance, a case in point is FGFA where even though we are investing half of the capital we get taken for a ride as per the given link :

Indian Air Force unhappy at progress of PAK-FA fifth-gen fighter | idrw.org

Regarding T 90's : Piercing the army's armour of deception - Rediff.com India News

Ex Army Chief Shankar Roy Chaudhary's statement in the end of the above mentioned link is very informative since he himself was a tankman!!

DRDO had to sort out the gun issue themselves without Russian support coz if DRDO gets hold of the mettalurgical tech than our artillery woes will be sorted out domestically.

I m going to find the link and get back to you where it says that Russians were playing hard ball and have nt transfered the techs such as main gun for T 90

Coming to Rafale I can only say wait and watch especially regarding the M88 !!

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

No to Rafale.

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