Kaveri for Infamous MIG-21 fleet

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Kunal Biswas, Nov 9, 2014.

  1. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Kaveri for IAF`s MIG-21

    Before i start, I would like to connect the Kaveri with MIG-21 and why these two are being connected ..

    1. MIG-21 mass crashes earning its nick name as ' Flying Con-fins ' much of this goes to the faulty fuel lines and Outdated Tumansky R-25 Engines ..
    2. GTRE Kaveri replacement for R-25 engines from MIG-21 bison fleet ..
    3. GTRE Kaveri development and Present condition ..

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    MIG-21 ' Flying Con-fins ' & faulty fuel lines and Outdated Tumansky R-25 Engines

    [​IMG]

    The IAF had inducted over 900 MiG-21s in its fleet over a period of 40 years, More than half of which were lost in different crashes. MiG-21s inducted into IAF since 1963,over (340 - 380) [confirm exact number] have been lost in crashes.leaving 171 pilots and 39 civilians dead. The problem ranges from oil leak, metallic particle in oil filters and hot air leak from rear casing to trouble in compressor. The defects are scary for the government and IAF ..

    Source : MiG_21_India

    A post-mortem of the Indian Air Force’s (IAF) MiG series of fighter jets has come up with shocking revelations pointing to perennial engine oil leaks besides other serious technical glitches that have lent the aircraft notorious distinction of ‘flying coffin’ or ‘widow-maker’ owing to frequent crashes and loss of human lives. It is reported that the pilot experienced engine failure. training flying has been suspended on this variant of the MiG-21. Chief of the Air Staff (CAS) stated on TV that the flying has been suspended on MiG-21-BIS fitted with the R-25 engine, pending investigation to establish the cause of engine failure. It has become a major topic of conversation among all sections of people and many have also voiced their opinion in the media. At the outset, heartfelt condolences to the families of those who lost their lives. Condolences also to the families of pilots who lost their lives in flying accidents; recognizing that the lives are irreplaceable. MiG-21 and its accident proneness must be looked at dispassionately, although explanations of any kind are not likely console the grief of those families who lost their kin..

    There are more shocking facts conveniently swept under the carpet. Sunday (12 May 2002) Indian Express has carried a report by one its correspondents titled “MiG-21 Crashes may be due to Design Deficiency”. Quoting an Air Force source he has stated that “ design deficiency is suspected to have caused two air crashes in less than a month. Flame tube burning is feared to be one of the reasons”. The springs installed in fuel pump of MiG 21 engines are failing frequently. A MiG-21 Bison aircraft crashed in November 2012 in Gujarat which was attributed to spring failure. Shockingly, the main fuel pumps of MiG-21 Bison engine continue to leak fuel, despite four studies conducted and implemented since 1990s. It says despite incorporating changes, fuel leak from main fuel pump continued unabated from throttle end.

    [​IMG]

    What the government has to say :

    The minister told the Lok Sabha in a statement that air accidents took place due to several reasons. “Human error is one of them. Inexperience of pilots is not a major reason for aircraft accidents in the IAF.”
    IAF, Defence Minister A K Antony said,“Main causes for the above accidents were Human Error (HE) and Technical Defect (TD).”


    What Russians have to say:

    “It is wrong as all those spare parts are fake. For MiG and other planes, you need authentic parts, And then you are surprised why your planes fall because spare parts are bought from unauthorised sources,” Russian Ambassador to India Alexander Kadakin said.

    ==>>

    Recent data compiled by the IAF and shared with Air Headquarters too shows that pilot error is not the predominant cause of crashes. Analyzing the causes behind 1,000 fighter crashes over the past several decades, the data attributes technical faults are behind a bigger number (39.5 per cent). Other crashes were attributed to bird hits (9 per cent), human error on ground (1.5 per cent) and faults in production by HAL (0.6 per cent).

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    MIG-21 will remain till 2020 ..

    Source : http://www.thehindu.com/2002/12/21/stories/2002122105841200.htm

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    A world record. ?

    [​IMG]

    Human error is only natural. It should be appreciated that a professional makes mistakes. But it is only one part of the story and only can experience can take care of it. But what is the other side of the coin? Not improving the technicality isn't a human error too? A fighter pilot has no chance like these top sportsman who are firmly on ground and are able to play the next innings or the next match. It is more unfortunate when the entire blame is pushed upon the courageous pilot who faces death rather than accepting own faults. It is very difficult particularly for the families of those who lost someone close to accept error or error of judgment on the part the individual., IAF is reluctance to induct Tejas until IOC-2, But more importantly had done nothing to prevent these crashes where Young pilot lost their life mainly from MIG-21 equipped squadrons, The major problem relates to Engine has not been solved since when it was detected in 2002 ..
     
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  3. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    GTRE Kaveri replacement of R-25 engines from MIG-21 bison fleet

    Before i proceed we must know about the trouble engine of MIG-21 bis and Bison, that is Tumansky R-25 Engine and a comparision with GTRE Kaveri >>

    Tumansky R-25

    [​IMG]

    The Tumansky R-25 was designed as a replacement for Tumansky R-13 in MiG-21 fighters. R-25 is a two-spool axial-flow turbojet featuring a compressor with increased overall pressure ratio and airflow, variable two-stage afterburner, and greater use of titanium.The R-25 engine was used on the MiG-21bis. A total of 3,200 R-25 were built between 1971 and 1975. The engine was also built under license by HAL in India for its fleet of MiG-21bis.

    Length: 4,615 mm (181.7 in)
    Diameter: 1,191 mm (46.9 in)
    Dry weight: 1,212 kg (2,670 lb)
    Dry thrust : 55 kilonewtons (12,000 lbf)
    With AB : 68.5 kilonewtons (15,400 lbf)

    The engine was put in action around 1971, It is since been used in MIG-21bis and Bisions ..

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    GTRE Kaveri

    [​IMG]

    Length: 3490 mm
    Diameter: 910 mm

    Dry weight: 1,235 kg [Goal: 2,100-2450 lb (950-1100 kg)]
    Military thrust : 11,687 lbf (52.0 kN)
    Full afterburner: 18,210 lbf (81.0 kN) (planned to be refined to >95 kN)

    Dr. V.K. Saraswat talk in IITB said - Current Kaveri generates 78KN wet thrust Vs goal of 81KN.

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    While comparing, It is crystal clear that Kaveri is a modern compact Engine with more thrust engine and of same weight , Now it is obvious that this engine can be solution to the trouble of MIG-21 and can save life of pilots and can have good export potential ..
     
  4. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    GTRE Kaveri development

    [​IMG]



    Source : Saurav Jha's Blog : Interview with Dr Avinash Chander, DRDO Chief and Scientific Adviser to Defence Minister


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    [​IMG]

    Source : New tailwinds for Kaveri engine - The Hindu

    As soon as it get certification, The engine in present config can be put together with MIG-21 , This is a way reduce MIG-21 crashes which has become a yearly factor now ..

    ========

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    Please read the thread and Continue Discussion ..
     
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  5. Twinblade

    Twinblade Senior Member Senior Member

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    No. Just no. How about a scrapyard for MiG-21 and order of at least one more squadron of Tejas Mk-1 ?
     
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  6. sgarg

    sgarg Senior Member Senior Member

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    @Kunal Biswas, you have a solid point. The only issue seems to be mismatch of physical dimensions. Anyway it may be too late as Mig-21 is on the way out.
    I think Kavery is still being developed. The GOI has cleared all DRDO projects including Kavery. GTRE is supposed to build the next version of Kavery with design changes. Let us hope and pray they succeed this time.
     
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  7. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    They are likely to order more MK2s, Till then this design should not be wasted rather use its potential to equipped crash prone MIG-21 which are forced to operate beyond 2020 ..

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    Bigger engines have issues fitting into smaller airframe but its easier to fit a smaller engine into bigger airframe ..

    If you see the dimensions, Kaveri is smaller to R-25 but more powerful than R-25 ..

     
  8. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Do we really want to revive the Mig platform??? Kaveri can be better used in lca or
    Other platform?
     
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  9. ladder

    ladder Senior Member Senior Member

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    There was a project to re-engine Mig-27 with AL-31F but was shelved, the reason for shelving will be the same for not fitting Kaveri K-9 to Mig-21 Bis/Bison.
     
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  10. biswaranjanrath.sipu

    biswaranjanrath.sipu Regular Member

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    First of all, grate salute to the person who came up with this idea . I do not know weather the kaveri engine specifications and configuration will match with mig 21 or 27 or jaguar or even to mig 29 , but if it can adjust to these fighter's body then it will be a grate advantage to Indian defence industries as well as GTRE.
     
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  11. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Its not about reviving Migs but saving pilots, Each year at average of two-three MIG-21s are going down, Mostly because of faulty engines ..

    IAF wants to make them operational till 2021, How many pilots would go down with their Mig-21s ?

    =======================

    MIG-27 service record is not worse as MIG-21 if we follow their crashes by yearly, Nor MIG-27 is designated for service beyond 2020, MIG -21 does which claimed so many lives ..

    Kaveri is not going to Tejas anytime soon, But if not Tejas why not MIGs, This is a noble cause ..

     
  12. sydsnyper

    sydsnyper Senior Member Senior Member

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    Good deal I say. Keep aside the idea of sustaining the Mig21, if it proves Kaveri as a 'multirole' engine, we can export the product to low income countries who are interested in developing their own airforce. There are many third world countries that still field the Mig21 or older aircraft. We can retrofit the Kaveri for them, lengthening the service lifetime of the aircraft and who knows, maybe HAL can be the next big exporters of aircraft engines.
     
  13. AVERAGE INDIAN

    AVERAGE INDIAN EXORCIST Senior Member

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    Mig 21 is not a capable multirole fighter in comparison to the present jets in the market , MiG 21 IS A GREAT FIGHTER OF ITS ERA time to let it go. Tejas Mark-I is much better than a MiG-21 'Bison' on several counts, including weapon-carrying capability and range. what i wonder is why IAF is so bloody stubborn, i would like to explain my view as per my understanding Kaveri is the best suited for building an advanced jet trainer why HAl never looked seriously into that matter, with kavari we can also build a ground attack fighter like something equivalent to Su 25 no leads if we don't need it then we can alteast used for export even though we don't need it earning some quick bucks African market .

    The fact that HAL can now effectively re-negotiate for better deals is also indicative of the fact that the Indian aerospace sector now has more options than it did in the wake of 1998 Pokhran tests. present stage i could not find any concrete leads in this regard. While the Kaveri project has been the subject of much derision by various quarters, the fact remains that it has strengthened India's hand enough in the turbofan space to resist being a dumping ground for yesterday's technology.
     
  14. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Will Russia accept Kaveri in migs?
     
  15. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    Migs are old, we should use them as ummanned drones to get ahead of manned fighters or to divert or use as target for enemy SAMs to take out SAM sites.
    using new engine on old frame means using new engine for old car body. Lets use it for LCA.
     
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  16. Zebra

    Zebra Senior Member Senior Member

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    Make more Tejas. Don't waste time.

    Try Kaveri on it. Improve Kaveri at home, as much as we can.
     
  17. sydsnyper

    sydsnyper Senior Member Senior Member

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    to @sayareakd 's point..... (digressing from the thread topic), US will most probably dronize the F15. We should try to do that for old aircraft like the Mirages. Dunno how the old soviet beasts will take to new electronics.
     
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  18. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Lets be focus on the real situation at hand, Their are many ways to use Kaveri but here focus is to make old horse run without killing the rider ..
     
  19. PaliwalWarrior

    PaliwalWarrior Regular Member

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    @Kunalbiswas

    dear sir

    we need to look at parameters of engines beyund

    Dimensions
    Dry thurst
    wet thurst


    can you compare those esp latest figure of kaveri?
     
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  20. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    @Kunal Biswas,

    Thank you for posting that news about the plans to fix the Kaveri into a MiG-29 and test it. I am looking forward to that event.

    Coming to the cartoon you posted in the opening post, I don't think that "Made in USSR" tag is appropriate. A more appropriate tag would be "Made in USSR and in India."
     
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  21. archie

    archie Regular Member

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    Would adding more power to Mig-21 make it even more difficult to control? Power to thrust ratio on that plane is quite high that it is deadly
     

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