Kaveri Engine

[Certified Gipsy]

What is the latest weight, dry thrust and after burner thrust of this engine?

 

[xeaaex]

Actually this is truth. We wanted UAE to order the upgraded core but they have yet to move on it. If India gets the upgraded core in Kavari it is a win-win for both.

How does that help us? Isn't core a core part of an aero engine?
Can we gain new technology and know how if jointly develope new core with safran?
Can we use that technology to develop our own 120 kn class aero engines?
Or does that mean safran is trying to hitch a ride by developing new core with Indian money?

 

[Kay]

How does that help us? Isn't core a core part of an aero engine?
Can we gain new technology and know how if jointly develope new core with safran?
Can we use that technology to develop our own 120 kn class aero engines?
Or does that mean safran is trying to hitch a ride by developing new core with Indian money?

Thus is what is being negotiated currently. Kaveri core - Kabini - has some problems - screech, afterburner oscillations, problems at high altitude, etc. Some got rectified (altitude problem). Others can be rectified by slight changes in materials and software. Snecma, which already has the expertise, has agreed to solve those problems so that Kaveri becomes a functional engine. This is agreed.
But for improving the thrust, a new core with different materials is needed to withstand higher temperatures. Kabini uses directionally solidified blades, but the new core would need single crystal blades - we are in the middle of developing that technology.
Snecma wants to further develop it's M88 core, which already uses these advanced technologies and wants to use Indian funds to do so - of course India will benefit theoritically as well by having spent man-hours on the project. But the new core, would be based on Snecma Core.
Here the negotiations are going on.

 

[xeaaex]

Thus is what is being negotiated currently. Kaveri core - Kabini - has some problems - screech, afterburner oscillations, problems at high altitude, etc. Some got rectified (altitude problem). Others can be rectified by slight changes in materials and software. Snecma, which already has the expertise, has agreed to solve those problems so that Kaveri becomes a functional engine. This is agreed.
But for improving the thrust, a new core with different materials is needed to withstand higher temperatures. Kabini uses directionally solidified blades, but the new core would need single crystal blades - we are in the middle of developing that technology.
Snecma wants to further develop it's M88 core, which already uses these advanced technologies and wants to use Indian funds to do so - of course India will benefit theoritically as well by having spent man-hours on the project. But the new core, would be based on Snecma Core.
Here the negotiations are going on.

I hope whatever we learn is reproducible indigenously without help or need.

 

[Certified Gipsy]

I apologize if this is already posted. Looks like the Kaveri is still not flyable, even though the desired dry thrust is achieved.

Some Design Issues With India’s Kaveri Jet Engine
By Saurav Jha

Developing a modern low-bypass turbofan (LBTF) jet engine was never going to be easy. Especially, for a country that had never really invested in jet engine development, apart from attempts at upgrading imported engines and building some indigenous demonstrators.



As such, the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), India’s premier jet engine systems laboratory and a part of the Defence Research and Development Organization’s (DRDO’s) Aeronautics Cluster, has laboured on since the 1990s to come up with the GTX-35VS Kaveri LBTF design. It should be noted, that this design was first conceived at a time when GTRE did not really have access to proper computational fluid dynamics (CFD) tools or could refer to substantial legacy wind-tunnel studies.



The amount spent on the Kaveri project thus far is about Rs 2133 crores, which is a fraction of what developing such a LBTF from the ground-up would have cost in the West.



Kaveri prototypes have nonetheless managed to demonstrate some of the project’s headline design goals such as a maximum of 52 kilonewtons (kN) of thrust in dry (unaugmented) mode. Not one of the existing pool of prototypes however has been able to meet the 81 kN thrust target in reheat (afterburner) mode. In this department, the maximum thrust ever achieved has been around 78 kN.



Issues that need to be addressed
Aside from the afterburner thrust shortfall issue , the Kaveri design hasn’t yet yielded a flight-worthy prototype either. The existing prototypes suffer from certain design-related issues which will have to be addressed before a Kaveri prototype can be deemed flight-worthy. The occurrence of these issues is pretty-standard in the course of jet engine development and not unexpected.



The key problems encountered by the Kaveri design, according to sources who have formerly been associated with the program, are:

• Unacceptable levels of fan-blade flutter risk – It seems that the Kaveri intake may need some redesign to reduce the chances of stall inducing self-excited vibrations (flutter) being experienced by the engine’s duct fan blades.

• Reheat oscillations – Kaveri prototypes currently experience significant combustion oscillation in their augmentors/afterburners. This also has an impact on specific fuel consumption during reheat.

• First stage low-pressure compressor blade vibration – The Kaveri’s first stage low-pressure compressor is also experiencing worrisome levels of rotor blade vibrations at the moment.

The issues delineated above have been deemed rectifiable by those in the know. But it seems outside consultancy support will be needed for the same. That, is a story for another day.



Featured Image: Scale model of GTRE’s GTX-35VS Kaveri Low-Bypass Turbofan Engine. Credit: Sriram Thiagarajan

Source : http://www.delhidefencereview.com/2017/04/19/design-issues-indias-kaveri-jet-engine/

 

[raja696]

I can sense the assassination of kaveri very soon, very different stand is being set as soon as manohar parikar left. Old DM is clearly a resistance to foreign companies and life to indigenisation.

I dont understand this new DM what he is up to , just nodding like cow to what ever proposition placed on table, just because he happens to control strings of purse.

Clearly new DM has no direction to mend foreign companies in Indias path of self realisation.

Why should be there new core of snecma, we want kaveri to be developed. Well start from redesigning kabini core rectifying defects if identified.

I can only see snecma throwing a portion of pizza to the hungry dogs (corrupt laluz)

 

[smestarz]

The main business was already done by Parrikar., The present DM is also FM and is focusing on FM issues,
I think soon NaMo might put in another DM. but one who is tech savvy.

I can sense the assassination of kaveri very soon, very different stand is being set as soon as manohar parikar left. Old DM is clearly a resistance to foreign companies and life to indigenisation.

I dont understand this new DM what he is up to , just nodding like cow to what ever proposition placed on table, just because he happens to control strings of purse.

Clearly new DM has no direction to mend foreign companies in Indias path of self realisation.

Why should be there new core of snecma, we want kaveri to be developed. Well start from redesigning kabini core rectifying defects if identified.

I can only see snecma throwing a portion of pizza to the hungry dogs (corrupt laluz)

 

[Kay]

Are there plans to develop turboprop and turboshaft based on Kaveri?

 

[Prashant12]

India looks to add muscle to Kaveri engine for upgraded Su-30 MKI fighters

Talks are on with the French side to up-rate the engine for both Tejas and Sukhoi fleets

Manu Pubby

Confident with initial studies that show that the desi ‘Kaveri’ engine can be revived and turned around for fighter jet operations in a short time span, India has asked its French collaborators whether the power-pack of the engine can be further boosted to upgrade its fleet of Su-30 MKI fighters.

The Kaveri project – which was abandoned in 2014 as it did not meet the power requirements of the Air Force – is being revived with French help for use on both the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and a new unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV) project.

Work is on with the French side to use the significant offsets on the Rafale fighter jet deal to fund a redevelopment of the Indian jet engine project. French company Safran has to invest over $1 billion in India as part of its offset obligations for the Indian Rafale deal.

India is keen on an indigenous power plant that can be used for its future series of aerial combat platforms. [/b]Sources have told ThePrint that now the Indian side has suggested that the Kaveri engine be rated up to produce a power of 125 kn – to make it usable for the Su-30 MKI fleet.[/b]

The Air Force has a fleet of just under 300 Sukhoi jets that will need to be upgraded. “The idea is to have a more powerful engine that can be used for a ‘Super Sukhoi’ upgrade. With the numbers we require, it will be good to have a Make in India solution,” sources involved in the process told ThePrint.

The sources said that studies are now being carried out on the feasibility of using the upgraded Kaveri for the Su-30 MKI fleet. While Russia will need to be consulted for an engine replacement on the fleet as it is the designer of the jet, officials on the Indian side do not foresee any objections given that French engines are being extensively used, including on the KA-226 helicopters that are to be manufactured domestically for the Army.

https://theprint.in/2017/07/24/indi...averi-engine-for-upgraded-su-30-mki-fighters/

 

[Kunal Biswas]

18 months and counting, I hope to see it on Tejas first before on MKI / AMCA ..

 

[airtel]

India looks to add muscle to Kaveri engine for upgraded Su-30 MKI fighters
now the Indian side has suggested that the Kaveri engine be rated up to produce a power of 125 kn – to make it usable for the Su-30 MKI fleet.[/b]


/

May be Not for sukhoi 30 MKI but for the AMCA......and that RFI of Aesa radars, ew suite, processor etc and that Nagpur reliance factory are also for AMCA.

 

[square]

India looks to add muscle to Kaveri engine for upgraded Su-30 MKI fighters

Talks are on with the French side to up-rate the engine for both Tejas and Sukhoi fleets

Manu Pubby

Confident with initial studies that show that the desi ‘Kaveri’ engine can be revived and turned around for fighter jet operations in a short time span, India has asked its French collaborators whether the power-pack of the engine can be further boosted to upgrade its fleet of Su-30 MKI fighters.

The Kaveri project – which was abandoned in 2014 as it did not meet the power requirements of the Air Force – is being revived with French help for use on both the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and a new unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV) project.

Work is on with the French side to use the significant offsets on the Rafale fighter jet deal to fund a redevelopment of the Indian jet engine project. French company Safran has to invest over $1 billion in India as part of its offset obligations for the Indian Rafale deal.

India is keen on an indigenous power plant that can be used for its future series of aerial combat platforms. [/b]Sources have told ThePrint that now the Indian side has suggested that the Kaveri engine be rated up to produce a power of 125 kn – to make it usable for the Su-30 MKI fleet.[/b]

The Air Force has a fleet of just under 300 Sukhoi jets that will need to be upgraded. “The idea is to have a more powerful engine that can be used for a ‘Super Sukhoi’ upgrade. With the numbers we require, it will be good to have a Make in India solution,” sources involved in the process told ThePrint.

The sources said that studies are now being carried out on the feasibility of using the upgraded Kaveri for the Su-30 MKI fleet. While Russia will need to be consulted for an engine replacement on the fleet as it is the designer of the jet, officials on the Indian side do not foresee any objections given that French engines are being extensively used, including on the KA-226 helicopters that are to be manufactured domestically for the Army.

https://theprint.in/2017/07/24/indi...averi-engine-for-upgraded-su-30-mki-fighters/

what about paying the royslity to russia for the mig29/35 airframe and put all indian stuff in there ?.......including kaveri ....
that will be cheap and best make in india ....
hal already master this plane in resent upgrade...
will fill the numbers for both navy and airforce in quick time...

 

[TPFscopes]

India looks to add muscle to Kaveri engine for upgraded Su-30 MKI fighters

Talks are on with the French side to up-rate the engine for both Tejas and Sukhoi fleets

Manu Pubby

Confident with initial studies that show that the desi ‘Kaveri’ engine can be revived and turned around for fighter jet operations in a short time span, India has asked its French collaborators whether the power-pack of the engine can be further boosted to upgrade its fleet of Su-30 MKI fighters.

The Kaveri project – which was abandoned in 2014 as it did not meet the power requirements of the Air Force – is being revived with French help for use on both the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and a new unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV) project.

Work is on with the French side to use the significant offsets on the Rafale fighter jet deal to fund a redevelopment of the Indian jet engine project. French company Safran has to invest over $1 billion in India as part of its offset obligations for the Indian Rafale deal.

India is keen on an indigenous power plant that can be used for its future series of aerial combat platforms. [/b]Sources have told ThePrint that now the Indian side has suggested that the Kaveri engine be rated up to produce a power of 125 kn – to make it usable for the Su-30 MKI fleet.[/b]

The Air Force has a fleet of just under 300 Sukhoi jets that will need to be upgraded. “The idea is to have a more powerful engine that can be used for a ‘Super Sukhoi’ upgrade. With the numbers we require, it will be good to have a Make in India solution,” sources involved in the process told ThePrint.

The sources said that studies are now being carried out on the feasibility of using the upgraded Kaveri for the Su-30 MKI fleet. While Russia will need to be consulted for an engine replacement on the fleet as it is the designer of the jet, officials on the Indian side do not foresee any objections given that French engines are being extensively used, including on the KA-226 helicopters that are to be manufactured domestically for the Army.

https://theprint.in/2017/07/24/indi...averi-engine-for-upgraded-su-30-mki-fighters/

Kaveri with present specifications will be be suitable for Su-30 because of lower thurst.
But it can be used on LCA, AMCA, MiG-29s, RAFALEs

 

[Prashant12]

May be Not for sukhoi 30 MKI but for the AMCA......and that RFI of Aesa radars, ew suite, processor etc and that Nagpur reliance factory are also for AMCA.

Sukhoi 30mki being twin engine can be used as testbed platform for AMCA.

 

[Prashant12]

Kaveri with present specifications will be be suitable for Su-30 because of lower thurst.
But it can be used on LCA, AMCA, MiG-29s, RAFALEs

Kaveri engine is being upgraded to 90kn thurst for LCA MK1/MKA and they have planning upgrade to 125kn for possible su 30mki upgrade or AMCA/

 

[Butter Chicken]

Russkis will say that buy MiG-35 and then you can use Kaveri for both MiG-35 and Su-30MKI

 

[TPFscopes]

Kaveri engine is being upgraded to 90kn thurst for LCA MK1/MKA and they have planning upgrade to 125kn for possible su 30mki upgrade or AMCA/

That is why I mentioned "PRESENT SPECIFICATIONS".
Good news is that IAF is interested to get AL-41 series Engine for Su-30MKI which has ~147Kn of max thurst and better fuel efficiency.

 

[Vijyes]

I don't understand why India can't make an engine that others have managed to make in 1980. F404 was made in 1980 and M88 in 1990. They may have had experience, but we must understand the computational power was low back then. Currently, especially after 1990, computational power sky rocketed. Software engineering is now a mainstream job in India. We have managed to write FADEC to our GE F404 imports (we were suspicious of US codes).
Jihadi congress is said to have purposefully scuttled the program for 5-6 years by not even giving money for the fuel for testing.

By the way, the fact that Snecma said Kaveri was 75% completed must have meant that the major part of the engine was complete and the last mile problems remained. With additional funding, hopefully we will be able to make the engine by ourselves, even 105/70 kN ones by 2024-5 (7-8 years). Hopefully, we can reverse engineer the alloys by chemical analysis, SCB and Blisk be developed in time.

The dreams of using it in Su30 should be given up. We should focus more on AMCA and Tejas.

 

[Vijyes]

Can anyone tell me why can't we use M88 or F404 core by reverse engineering most parts and designing the remainder? They are tested designs and designs identical to them are likely to work. I am not asking to import but to just copy the design

 

[lcafanboy]

Can anyone tell me why can't we use M88 or F404 core by reverse engineering most parts and designing the remainder? They are tested designs and designs identical to them are likely to work. I am not asking to import but to just copy the design

You can copy the design but what about the super alloys that go into the hot section of Jet Engines. They can't be copied. Even though AL-31s for SU-30mki are made in India the Alloys still come from Russia. The CMC machines come from Russia. Also the advance CMC machines are required to manufacture these parts are strictly controlled by western countries and do not allow them to be exported to China, Russia and India, etc.

The reason why Russian Jet Engines are smokey and have lower life is they do not have such advance CMC machines. China has managed to somehow get hold of a few of these machines and have been able to copy and manufacture such machines, hence they are now making newer engines that are less smoky than Russian ones. So it's not that easy to copy.