Kaveri Engine

[kunal1123]

HAHA. Seems like some fanboy put it in there. I think it's reasonable to say that Kaveri is not variable-cycle (no one is even thinking of designing it that way right now - way futuristic); it is just way more ambitious than saying that it "produces 13% higher thrust than GE 404!"!!

Anyways, I went ahead and removed that statement from the Wikipedia page

well here is some old news link of around 2010 with same statement.....

"Its design is a variable-cycle, flat-rated engine and has 13 percent higher thrust than the General Electric F404-GE-F2J3 engines equipping India's Tejas prototypes"


here is from drdo website....
it is now not on site, but u can get it by google cache feature

well no i say u add that on wiki ..

 

[Scrutator]

well here is some old news link of around 2010 with same statement.....

"Its design is a variable-cycle, flat-rated engine and has 13 percent higher thrust than the General Electric F404-GE-F2J3 engines equipping India's Tejas prototypes"


here is from drdo website....
it is now not on site, but u can get it by google cache feature

View attachment 13909

well no i say u add that on wiki ..

It says it's an "early and simplified approach". That phrase can be used in any context like: Tejas is an early and simplified approach to stealth aircraft!! Indian Army's Patka is an early and simplified approach to full body armor!!

Rest assured, Kaveri is not a variable cycle engine. That concept is still in experimental stages even among the large reputed engine manufacturers. It's all sales talk! DRDO scientists like to pick the most cutting edge words floating around and put it in their papers. Even today every DRDO executive proudly says that "Tejas is the BEST fighter in it's class" - what class is that? It's just a made-up classification (not based on fighter roles).

 

[kunal1123]

It says it's an "early and simplified approach". That phrase can be used in any context like: Tejas is an early and simplified approach to stealth aircraft!! Indian Army's Patka is an early and simplified approach to full body armor!!

Rest assured, Kaveri is not a variable cycle engine. That concept is still in experimental stages even among the large reputed engine manufacturers. It's all sales talk! Even today every DRDO executive proudly says that "Tejas is the BEST fighter in it's class" - what class is that? It's just a made-up classification (not based on fighter roles).

well u see it is publication that is of dated April 1985,
and here is Concluding Remarks

The concept of variable cycle by varying the maximum cycle temperature in order to

increase the dry thrust has been recognised. By employing this concept it would be
possible to aerothermodynamically retain the engine contemporary point under high TI
conditions, same as that at ISA SLS condition. Further the throttle ratio is a function
of maximum cycle temperature and better the turbine technology, greater would be the
degree of flat rating.

i don't think they have given up on that when they started working on so early .

 

[Scrutator]

well u see it is publication that is of dated April 1985,
and here is Concluding Remarks

The concept of variable cycle by varying the maximum cycle temperature in order to

increase the dry thrust has been recognised. By employing this concept it would be
possible to aerothermodynamically retain the engine contemporary point under high TI
conditions, same as that at ISA SLS condition. Further the throttle ratio is a function
of maximum cycle temperature and better the turbine technology, greater would be the
degree of flat rating.

i don't think they have given up on that when they started working on so early .

I am not surprised that it's dated as 1985. As I said earlier, DRDO likes to pick all the latest cutting edge words and put it in their papers! Firstly Kaveri hasn't even reached the thrust point that it was designed for - so where does 'optimal efficiency at all modes/cycles' come into picture? You're making an assumption that because they said it in 1985 then they definitely have done it. Even if you ask any DRDO scientist they'll probably say 'we have included some aspects' of it; just like they like to say Tejas is the best fighter jet in the world (fine print: in some obscure 'class').

I don't mean to discourage you, but variable/adaptive cycle engine is not the most pressing need anyways. If Kaveri can deliver the thrust levels that they had promised even without incorporating futuristic techniques, we'll still be popping open the Champagne bottles!!

 

[kunal1123]

I don't mean to discourage you, but variable/adaptive cycle engine is not the most pressing need anyways. If Kaveri can deliver the thrust levels that they had promised even without incorporating futuristic techniques, we'll still be popping open the Champagne bottles!

well i do agree with your Champagne bottles! remark but u missing the basic point. GTRE started in this concept . they did not able to achieve required thrust is no reaseon that it is not incoperated in kaveri. basicly kaveri is design on the "variable cycle flat rated" engien (and that is the indian requirement and gtre know that from start).

there's no fighter jet or engine in the world that has this technology implemented.

However, General Electric did develop a Variable Cycle Engine, known as the GE37 or General Electric YF120, for the YF22/YF23 fighter aircraft competition, back in the late 80's. GE used a Double Bypass/Hybrid Fan arrangement, but to date has never disclosed precisely how they exploited the concept. Although the YF120 was a good (possibly better) engine in the fly-off, the USAF erred on the side of caution and selected the more conventional Pratt & Whitney F119 as the powerplant for the production F22

SO u see it is not that surprising that GTRE is started on it.

 

[Scrutator]

well i do agree with your Champagne bottles! remark but u missing the basic point. GTRE started in this concept . they did not able to achieve required thrust is no reaseon that it is not incoperated in kaveri. basicly kaveri is design on the "variable cycle flat rated" engien (and that is the indian requirement and gtre know that from start).



However, General Electric did develop a Variable Cycle Engine, known as the GE37 or General Electric YF120, for the YF22/YF23 fighter aircraft competition, back in the late 80's. GE used a Double Bypass/Hybrid Fan arrangement, but to date has never disclosed precisely how they exploited the concept. Although the YF120 was a good (possibly better) engine in the fly-off, the USAF erred on the side of caution and selected the more conventional Pratt & Whitney F119 as the powerplant for the production F22

SO u see it is not that surprising that GTRE is started on it.

I don't doubt for a moment that they aspire to and would love to get there. I just don't believe that they are there - especially given that this is the first jet engine that they're designing and let's say they are still 'designing' the end product; as such their goals would have been much more sanguine than anything you're getting excited about. Variable cycle engine involves dynamically changing the engine 'trim' for various speed/thrust operations to optimize fuel consumption at every level!! Right now they haven't even hit the high thrust mark!! I like your trust in them; but I've followed DRDO's work and their claims for far too long to just believe that just because 30 years ago they put in some words in their paper about futuristic concepts, they actually went on to achieve it when the basic product hasn't been achieved yet. My bet is that when they started designing and developing variable cycles was the last thing on their head.

If they're even still thinking about it, they would be pom-pom'ing about it all the time. Have you heard recently from GTRE that they've made any strides in that direction?

 

[kunal1123]

I don't doubt for a moment that they aspire to and would love to get there. I just don't believe that they are there - especially given that this is the first jet engine that they're designing and let's say they are still 'designing' the end product; as such their goals would have been much more sanguine than anything you're getting excited about. Variable cycle engine involves dynamically changing the engine 'trim' for various speed/thrust operations to optimize fuel consumption at every level!! Right now they haven't even hit the high thrust mark!! I like your trust in them; but I've followed DRDO's work and their claims for far too long to just believe that just because 30 years ago they put in some words in their paper about futuristic concepts, they actually went on to achieve it when the basic product hasn't been achieved yet. My bet is that when they started designing and developing variable cycles was the last thing on their head.

If they're even still thinking about it, they would be pom-pom'ing about it all the time. Have you heard recently from GTRE that they've made any strides in that direction?

ok let rest it here .U say it is not. I believe it is. and kaveri any time cone in news is for bad reason. let them get the required thrust first then any gtre official will able to say what it is.

on the side note how in 2010 they able to predict the exact time for kaveri in lca....

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/97040/kaveri-engine-installed-2018.html

Kaveri engine to be installed in 2018
The Indian-built engine for the country's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) may be ready for installation in 2018, a senior official of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has said.

"The gas turbine engine Kaveri will replace the GE-404 engines which are now being put in the LCA," DRDO's chief controller of research and development Prahlada told reporters here. The Kaveri engine, a Rs.2,000 crore project, is being developed by one of the DRDO labs based in Bangalore, the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE).

Test runs of the first complete prototype Kaveri began in 1996. However fed up by the delay in fully developing the engine, the defence ministry shelved its plans to build a fighter aircraft.

The Kaveri engine project got revived in 2006 following a joint venture formed between the DRDO and French company, Snecma, an engine-maker, to jointly develop it to fit in the LCA.

 

[kunal1123]

why they not putting the target thrust ..?
http://www.financialexpress.com/ind...kaveri-engine-in-next-aero-india-drdo/553895/

http://www.ians.in/index.php?param=news/C-1-874732

Hopeful of flying Kaveri engine in next Aero India: DRDO
The issue of safety is involved since the engine is supposed to be used in Light Combat Aircraft.
By: IANS | Bengluru | Published: February 16, 2017 3:30 PM
l
Reliability and safety are foremost concerns. Now, someone has to audit this engine and say it is safe for flying, said CP Narayanan. (PTI)

With French company Safran agreeing to help India revive its Kaveri combat jet engine project, a senior DRDO official said on Thursday they hope to fly the engine in the next Aero India. The issue of safety is involved since the engine is supposed to be used in Light Combat Aircraft, Defence Research and Development Organisation’s Aeronautical Systems Director General C.P. Narayanan told IANS on the sidelines of the Aero India 2017. “Safety is a concern if you are flying a single-engine aircraft; if it is a twin engine, there is no problem. Reliability and safety are foremost concerns. Now, someone has to audit this engine and say it is safe for flying.”

The Kaveri engine development project was sanctioned in March 1989 but dropped in 2014-15 after repeated failures. The project for an indigenous engine was helmed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) of DRDO for mastering one of the most complex technologies. Narayanan said assistance is required for defining the ‘flight envelop’ for the indigenous engine. “That envelop development related to safety is very critical, we are taking help now,” he said. A flight envelop describes its safe performance limits in regard to factors like minimum and maximum operating speeds and elevation.

He said an updated version of the engine will be developed, which will be called K9. “We have up to now K8 (prototype), now we are going to call it K9,” he said. On Tuesday, Defence Minsiter Manohar Parrikar said the Kaveri fighter engine project will be revived and that the DRDO is in discussions with Safran as part of offsets under the Rafale jet deal, inked between India and France in September 2016.

In a written reply to the Lok Sabha in December 2016, Minister of State for Defence Subhash Bhamre had called the effort of the GTRE in developing the engine as “an attempt to mastering one of the most complex technologies”. The minister said the altitude test and flying test bed trials for the engine had been completed and other developmental problems were being addressed to make the engine flight-worthy through in-house efforts as well with assistance from abroad.

 

[Prashant12]

why they not putting the target thrust ..?

Target Trust is 90/95 kN.

------------------------------------------

 

[Vijyes]

Are you sure about this? Variable cycle technology is pretty advanced, there's no fighter jet or engine in the world that has this technology implemented. Perhaps you meant to say something else?

Yes, kaveri is supposed to be variable cycle engine. Fir Indian condition they needed it apparently. There is a problem in compression technology and turbine blade. Here is the link:
http://www.wikiwand.com/en/GTRE_GTX-35VS_Kaveri

 

[kunal1123]

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[Scrutator]

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Interesting revelation that SCBs may not go into the current versions of Kaveri. It appears that they've been successful in creating SCBs under lab conditions; haven't figured a way for production engineering it.

 

[Vijyes]

Interesting revelation that SCBs may not go into the current versions of Kaveri. It appears that they've been successful in creating SCBs under lab conditions; haven't figured a way for production engineering it.

According to what I have read, there is some problems with compression stage in current Kaveri engine, not just SCB. I am not sure if it is just blisk or other problems too

 

[Alok Arya]

Interesting revelation that SCBs may not go into the current versions of Kaveri. It appears that they've been successful in creating SCBs under lab conditions; haven't figured a way for production engineering it.

SCB is there in htfe 25 of second generation or higher , also blisk , wide cord blade is there in htfe 25 . These all going to be in Kaveri with also thermobaric coating of plasma or ceramic coating to achieve tet . There will be better metallurgy in cold section to handle higher centrifugal force and for better handling of trans sonic pressure. Donot be to critical and hope for good . Perhaps Kaveri is in bench testing and soon going to be air in double engine fighter plane and ready for Tejas in 2018 .

 

[ersakthivel]

Interesting revelation that SCBs may not go into the current versions of Kaveri. It appears that they've been successful in creating SCBs under lab conditions; haven't figured a way for production engineering it.

Kaveri is a low bypass engine , with lower TET, which doesn't need SCB for its original design thrust.

SCBs are needed if its bypass ratio is increased to produce extra thrust

 

[ersakthivel]

I don't doubt for a moment that they aspire to and would love to get there. I just don't believe that they are there - especially given that this is the first jet engine that they're designing and let's say they are still 'designing' the end product; as such their goals would have been much more sanguine than anything you're getting excited about. Variable cycle engine involves dynamically changing the engine 'trim' for various speed/thrust operations to optimize fuel consumption at every level!! Right now they haven't even hit the high thrust mark!! I like your trust in them; but I've followed DRDO's work and their claims for far too long to just believe that just because 30 years ago they put in some words in their paper about futuristic concepts, they actually went on to achieve it when the basic product hasn't been achieved yet. My bet is that when they started designing and developing variable cycles was the last thing on their head.

If they're even still thinking about it, they would be pom-pom'ing about it all the time. Have you heard recently from GTRE that they've made any strides in that direction?

In the last three years of UPA govt GTRE was denied funding even to run their existing engines. So I wonder what GTRE guys will "pom-pom" about??? Certainly you dont expect them to sell their grand father's property to fund kaveri development.

UPA also freezed DRDO funding. GTRE head was arrested in some strange mysterious "massage parlour" case?!?!? Remember the infamous Nambi Narayan arrest in "fake " ISRO spy ring case??

ANd GTRE was literally left to limp around by UPA

What is needed in kaveri is the finishing phase. Design dry thrust is achieved. Thast why french are willing to make it operational in 18 months.

If the engine is faulty in design & struggling , it will take years.

Also the IAF gentlemen simply scrapped SNEMA-GTRE collaboration which was proposed in 2007 for kaveri by saying that GTRE wont learn anything from the effort??? Seeing the Agusta westland probe I dont have any doubt about the motivation of IAF panel led by the infamous IAF gent Matheswaran to kill GTTRE Snecma proposed venture.

Things are falling into place for Tejas & Kaveri only after the new govt came to power.

French are not doing it for charity, They too will learn valuable insights in to variable cycle 90 Kn engine that is sorely needed for rafale engine upgrade. A dedicated engine development will take at least 20 years.

What is needed is the french expertise in finishing tech & certification.

GTRE doesn't need SCB tech for kaveri as its low bypass design has lower TET, which can be achieved with non SCB blades,

blade throwing was the result of frequency vibration of third order, To identify this GTRE doesnt have test rigs.

Finally it was identified in germany & rectified.

Now the prime french help is increasing the MTBO of kaveri & flight worthy certification.Not their non existent expertise with "trim levels" of variable cycle engines. They dont have it.

Only F-22 flies with variable cycle engines.

 

[ersakthivel]

Are you sure about this? Variable cycle technology is pretty advanced, there's no fighter jet or engine in the world that has this technology implemented. Perhaps you meant to say something else?

F-22 has variable cycle engines, If my memory is correct.

 

[airtel]

F-22 has variable cycle engines, If my memory is correct.

Americans developed variable cycle Engines for F-22 & F-35 ............but they are not using them .

instead of General Electric's variable cycle YF120 they are using
Pratt & Whitney F119 in F-22 .

 

[Vijyes]

In the last three years of UPA govt GTRE was denied funding even to run their existing engines. So I wonder what GTRE guys will "pom-pom" about??? Certainly you dont expect them to sell their grand father's property to fund kaveri development.

UPA also freezed DRDO funding. GTRE head was arrested in some strange mysterious "massage parlour" case?!?!? Remember the infamous Nambi Narayan arrest in "fake " ISRO spy ring case??

ANd GTRE was literally left to limp around by UPA

What is needed in kaveri is the finishing phase. Design dry thrust is achieved. Thast why french are willing to make it operational in 18 months.

If the engine is faulty in design & struggling , it will take years.

Also the IAF gentlemen simply scrapped SNEMA-GTRE collaboration which was proposed in 2007 for kaveri by saying that GTRE wont learn anything from the effort??? Seeing the Agusta westland probe I dont have any doubt about the motivation of IAF panel led by the infamous IAF gent Matheswaran to kill GTTRE Snecma proposed venture.

Things are falling into place for Tejas & Kaveri only after the new govt came to power.

French are not doing it for charity, They too will learn valuable insights in to variable cycle 90 Kn engine that is sorely needed for rafale engine upgrade. A dedicated engine development will take at least 20 years.

What is needed is the french expertise in finishing tech & certification.

GTRE doesn't need SCB tech for kaveri as its low bypass design has lower TET, which can be achieved with non SCB blades,

blade throwing was the result of frequency vibration of third order, To identify this GTRE doesnt have test rigs.

Finally it was identified in germany & rectified.

Now the prime french help is increasing the MTBO of kaveri & flight worthy certification.Not their non existent expertise with "trim levels" of variable cycle engines. They dont have it.

Only F-22 flies with variable cycle engines.

Kaveri needs SCB as the initial design for thrust was 80kN but was later changed to 100kN+. So, SCB is in need. Even things like blisk is needed. Also, there is a reason India is negotiating with US for hot engine technology for variable cycle as kaveri might be having a problem there too

 

[Scrutator]

In the last three years of UPA govt GTRE was denied funding even to run their existing engines. So I wonder what GTRE guys will "pom-pom" about??? Certainly you dont expect them to sell their grand father's property to fund kaveri development.

UPA also freezed DRDO funding. GTRE head was arrested in some strange mysterious "massage parlour" case?!?!? Remember the infamous Nambi Narayan arrest in "fake " ISRO spy ring case??

ANd GTRE was literally left to limp around by UPA

What is needed in kaveri is the finishing phase. Design dry thrust is achieved. Thast why french are willing to make it operational in 18 months.

If the engine is faulty in design & struggling , it will take years.

Also the IAF gentlemen simply scrapped SNEMA-GTRE collaboration which was proposed in 2007 for kaveri by saying that GTRE wont learn anything from the effort??? Seeing the Agusta westland probe I dont have any doubt about the motivation of IAF panel led by the infamous IAF gent Matheswaran to kill GTTRE Snecma proposed venture.

Things are falling into place for Tejas & Kaveri only after the new govt came to power.

French are not doing it for charity, They too will learn valuable insights in to variable cycle 90 Kn engine that is sorely needed for rafale engine upgrade. A dedicated engine development will take at least 20 years.

What is needed is the french expertise in finishing tech & certification.

GTRE doesn't need SCB tech for kaveri as its low bypass design has lower TET, which can be achieved with non SCB blades,

blade throwing was the result of frequency vibration of third order, To identify this GTRE doesnt have test rigs.

Finally it was identified in germany & rectified.

Now the prime french help is increasing the MTBO of kaveri & flight worthy certification.Not their non existent expertise with "trim levels" of variable cycle engines. They dont have it.

Only F-22 flies with variable cycle engines.

Not sure what the entire rant (except the last sentence) had to do with the topic. And the last sentence is also incorrect.