Kaveri Engine

[delbruky]

The only reason why we are talking of a "Saffranized Kaveri" is 'cause its better to have an engine of which some parts are built in India fitted into Tejas. The alternatives are American built F-414.
But let us not forget, "Saffranized Kaveri" is nothing but a stop-gap. The Indian fighter jet engine industry will need more research to be able to produce an engine that we can call as one that was "Made in India".
Saffranized Kaveri in 2008 (GTRE director interview):-
In aircraft engine development, you cannot set a timeline
^^Makes my blood boil to see the French trying to kill our indigenous aero-engine industry.
A quote from this article:-

1. So how did DRDO come up with single crystal tech in this decade?
2. Some facilities are online in India, but we still need to go abroad for testing some things.

I believe the government will undoubtedly throw more money at this project, or a new jet engine project, if negotiations with the French fail to bear fruit.
Kaveri is almost there. This is a fact. We require foreign due to time constraint. GTRE is not close to resolving the last few problems remaining because we still do not have all the test facilities required in India. Remember the blade throw issue? GTRE tried to isolate the cause for 3 years. Then they gave up and went to Russia for some tests. Figured out the problem immediately. Had the facility been present here, we would not have had to waste so much f**king time. So you are absolutely correct when you say that the government has invested nothing in Kaveri.

This is bugging me a lot. We still need some conformation from GTRE and DMRL on this. Is Rhenium unavailability the reason why we are unable to produce next gen SCB? @sayareakd could you please ask this to someone from DMRL and GTRE in DefExpo? Please ask them if there is some plan to develop ceramic matrix composite turbine blades in the near future and if there is some progress on this front.

Dear Brother I have high regards for your optimism and the fervour with which you are defending the Indian research orgs, I also realise that there is lot of expectations from the current dispensation under PM Modi especially after coming out of 10 years of UPA darkage. However, I have been hearing similar noise on Kaveri/Tejas etc for the last Seventeen years and a lot of people arduously following this forum will agree. It beats be to reason why The present dispensation under Pm Modi hasn't funded Kaveri and Indigenous Semiconductor research enough.

The simple design and development thumb rule is " IF YOU CAN'T TEST SOMETHING YOU CAN'T MAKE SOMETHING". It is possible to to have all the testing facilities in the world and still not come up with the right product but it is IMPOSSIBLE to have only partial testing facilities with foreign parts and testing dependency and expect a magic egg to simply pop out of no where. Don't blame the french blame the current and previous govt for not funding the project enough, and blame the leftist researchers in our sarkari establishments who have very little virility, answer ability and vigour, I am not saying all of them are bad but indeed there are a few VERY BAD EGGS in there awaiting retirement.

The state of Alloy and Material Science research is such that even if you build say a more efficient Bullock Cart in India You will have to import the roller bearings from JAPAN.

 

[aarav]

The only reason why we are talking of a "Saffranized Kaveri" is 'cause its better to have an engine of which some parts are built in India fitted into Tejas. The alternatives are American built F-414.
But let us not forget, "Saffranized Kaveri" is nothing but a stop-gap. The Indian fighter jet engine industry will need more research to be able to produce an engine that we can call as one that was "Made in India".
Saffranized Kaveri in 2008 (GTRE director interview):-
In aircraft engine development, you cannot set a timeline
^^Makes my blood boil to see the French trying to kill our indigenous aero-engine industry.
A quote from this article:-


The French can suc* m* di*k if they think they can lay claim to all future aero engines created in India. And then we have retards like @aarav who can't wait to jump in bed with the French.
I just read this interview today. I cannot believe this f**king line. Tell me that I am misunderstanding something because this seems shady as F**k. Is this the deal that is being worked upon right now? @lcafanboy ? If so, I say F*** the French and their saffranized $hit. We will be happier using GE engines.

1. So how did DRDO come up with single crystal tech in this decade?
2. Some facilities are online in India, but we still need to go abroad for testing some things.

I believe the government will undoubtedly throw more money at this project, or a new jet engine project, if negotiations with the French fail to bear fruit.


Kaveri is almost there. This is a fact. We require foreign due to time constraint. GTRE is not close to resolving the last few problems remaining because we still do not have all the test facilities required in India. Remember the blade throw issue? GTRE tried to isolate the cause for 3 years. Then they gave up and went to Russia for some tests. Figured out the problem immediately. Had the facility been present here, we would not have had to waste so much f**king time. So you are absolutely correct when you say that the government has invested nothing in Kaveri.



This is bugging me a lot. We still need some conformation from GTRE and DMRL on this. Is Rhenium unavailability the reason why we are unable to produce next gen SCB? @sayareakd could you please ask this to someone from DMRL and GTRE in DefExpo? Please ask them if there is some plan to develop ceramic matrix composite turbine blades in the near future and if there is some progress on this front.

The ALH Dhruv engine also has french input ,the turbomeca Shakti engine of HAL ,so by that way France has been helping in engines from long time ,we don't have luxury of R&D with a new engine either buy it off the shelf from GE or take the offset deals the French have been offering ,retardness starts with obsessive compulsion of every indigenous sub system in Tejas even chinese don't have indigenous jet engines they buy it from Russia ,they have a much high R&D Base than india

 

[Kshithij]

Dear Brother I have high regards for your optimism and the fervour with which you are defending the Indian research orgs, I also realise that there is lot of expectations from the current dispensation under PM Modi especially after coming out of 10 years of UPA darkage. However, I have been hearing similar noise on Kaveri/Tejas etc for the last Seventeen years and a lot of people arduously following this forum will agree. It beats be to reason why The present dispensation under Pm Modi hasn't funded Kaveri and Indigenous Semiconductor research enough.

The simple design and development thumb rule is " IF YOU CAN'T TEST SOMETHING YOU CAN'T MAKE SOMETHING". It is possible to to have all the testing facilities in the world and still not come up with the right product but it is IMPOSSIBLE to have only partial testing facilities with foreign parts and testing dependency and expect a magic egg to simply pop out of no where. Don't blame the french blame the current and previous govt for not funding the project enough, and blame the leftist researchers in our sarkari establishments who have very little virility, answer ability and vigour, I am not saying all of them are bad but indeed there are a few VERY BAD EGGS in there awaiting retirement.

The state of Alloy and Material Science research is such that even if you build say a more efficient Bullock Cart in India You will have to import the roller bearings from JAPAN.

Subhash Bhamre had stated in parliament in 2016 that test facility has been completed. Here is source;
http://www.financialexpress.com/ind...kaveri-engine-in-next-aero-india-drdo/553895/

Hopeful of flying Kaveri engine in next Aero India: DRDO
The issue of safety is involved since the engine is supposed to be used in Light Combat Aircraft.

Reliability and safety are foremost concerns. Now, someone has to audit this engine and say it is safe for flying, said CP Narayanan. (PTI)

With French company Safran agreeing to help India revive its Kaveri combat jet engine project, a senior DRDO official said on Thursday they hope to fly the engine in the next Aero India. The issue of safety is involved since the engine is supposed to be used in Light Combat Aircraft, Defence Research and Development Organisation’s Aeronautical Systems Director General C.P. Narayanan told IANS on the sidelines of the Aero India 2017. “Safety is a concern if you are flying a single-engine aircraft; if it is a twin engine, there is no problem. Reliability and safety are foremost concerns. Now, someone has to audit this engine and say it is safe for flying.”

The Kaveri engine development project was sanctioned in March 1989 but dropped in 2014-15 after repeated failures. The project for an indigenous engine was helmed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) of DRDO for mastering one of the most complex technologies. Narayanan said assistance is required for defining the ‘flight envelop’ for the indigenous engine. “That envelop development related to safety is very critical, we are taking help now,” he said. A flight envelop describes its safe performance limits in regard to factors like minimum and maximum operating speeds and elevation.

He said an updated version of the engine will be developed, which will be called K9. “We have up to now K8 (prototype), now we are going to call it K9,” he said. On Tuesday, Defence Minsiter Manohar Parrikar said the Kaveri fighter engine project will be revived and that the DRDO is in discussions with Safran as part of offsets under the Rafale jet deal, inked between India and France in September 2016.

In a written reply to the Lok Sabha in December 2016, Minister of State for Defence Subhash Bhamre had called the effort of the GTRE in developing the engine as “an attempt to mastering one of the most complex technologies”. The minister said the altitude test and flying test bed trials for the engine had been completed and other developmental problems were being addressed to make the engine flight-worthy through in-house efforts as well with assistance from abroad.

Don't blame scientists. Mohan Rao of GTRE had complained in 2009 itself for insufficient funds and lack of test bed. In 2011, he was arrested by UPA on flimsy grounds.

Don't forget that India does make Al31F engine. So, lack of technology is not a correct excuse.

The ALH Dhruv engine also has french input ,the turbomeca Shakti engine of HAL ,so by that way France has been helping in engines from long time ,we don't have luxury of R&D with a new engine either buy it off the shelf from GE or take the offset deals the French have been offering ,retardness starts with obsessive compulsion of every indigenous sub system in Tejas even chinese don't have indigenous jet engines they buy it from Russia ,they have a much high R&D Base than india

India is now making HTSE1200. France did not help India make anything but just gave engine parts for money. If they had not given, India might have purchased from Russia or made it by itself. Making helicopter engine is rather easy and is 1960-1970 technology without much improvement. The temperature requirement is also low enough to not need 2nd generation SCB. It is more or less like a turboprop engine but with turboshaft.

 

[SanjeevM]

Do we have a test bed/wind tunnels for testing engines now? Or are they planned to come up in next couple of years?

 

[Kshithij]

Do we have a test bed/wind tunnels for testing engines now? Or are they planned to come up in next couple of years?

Yes, we have test bed in Bangalore for engines on the ground. High altitude test is done in Il76 plane in India itself. There is no need to go to Russia anymore

 

[G10]

Yes, we have test bed in Bangalore for engines on the ground. High altitude test is done in Il76 plane in India itself. There is no need to go to Russia anymore

Bhai what kind of weed you take. Let me know please. Or else give me a source for that Il76 plane test in india.

 

[Adioz]

,retardness starts with obsessive compulsion of every indigenous sub system in Tejas

Never said that. Read the line that set me off. The French want(ed?) to form a JV which would "control all future jet engines made in the country". This is what I spoke against.
I would feel bad if Kaveri was "saffranized" and put on Tejas. But it would still be bearable. But if the French lay claim to the hard-won achivements of our scientists, and if the French would dare lay claim to "all future jet engines mad in India", then yeah, I would rather spit in their faces than accept such a JV.

I do have a wish: that all major subsystems in Tejas will be Indian in the future. Although it is not obsession. Yet.

even chinese don't have indigenous jet engines they buy it from Russia

But they are trying to make indigenous jet engines and do have some indigenous jet engines that are actually flying.

 

[darshan978]

Yes, we have test bed in Bangalore for engines on the ground. High altitude test is done in Il76 plane in India itself. There is no need to go to Russia anymore

what il76 testebed in india ? when ? where ? we dont have enough tanker for our iaf i dont think iaf has given up il76 tanker to drdo lol.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Yes, we have test bed in Bangalore for engines on the ground. High altitude test is done in Il76 plane in India itself. There is no need to go to Russia anymore

Bro I found something for you.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

 

[Kshithij]

Bro I found something for you.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

2nd generation SCB means that India is going to use rhenium. Interesting.

 

[darshan978]

do GE-F404 have single crystal blades??

 

[cyclops]

2nd generation SCB means that India is going to use rhenium. Interesting.

................................................

 

[Steven Rogers]

do GE-F404 have single crystal blades??

No but GEF414 DO HAVE

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

 

[Kshithij]

do GE-F404 have single crystal blades??

No, F404 has maximum TET as 1717K which turns out to be 1444 celsius. So, excluding the thermobaric coating, the temperature tolerance comes to be 1144 celsius.
Nickel alloys without rhenium also has temperature tolerance - 1200 celsius with proper cooling vents. and hence TET can reach upto 1500 celsius or 1770K with thermobaric coating. Kabini core itself has TET for 1770K and is higher than that for F404. Kabini core uses 2nd generation Directionally Solidified blades which has slightly better performance than single 1st generation crystal blades.

It does not appear that F404 has rhenium based single crystal alloy. It may have 1st generation SC or 1st generation DS or 2nd generation DS blade, but not rhenium based 2nd generation or above single crystal alloy

 

[tharun]

Interestingly both RD-33 and Kaveri engine falls into same class of 50-55 Kn dry thrust.
Difference between them is RD-33 is lengthier and large in diameter and less in weight compared to Kaveri.
If we can achieve the difference we can replace the RD-33 engines from Mig-29's of IAF and navy.

 

[Adioz]

No, F404 has maximum TET as 1717K which turns out to be 1444 celsius. So, excluding the thermobaric coating, the temperature tolerance comes to be 1144 celsius.
Nickel alloys without rhenium also has temperature tolerance - 1200 celsius with proper cooling vents. and hence TET can reach upto 1500 celsius or 1770K with thermobaric coating. Kabini core itself has TET for 1770K and is higher than that for F404. Kabini core uses 2nd generation Directionally Solidified blades which has slightly better performance than single 1st generation crystal blades.

It does not appear that F404 has rhenium based single crystal alloy. It may have 1st generation SC or 1st generation DS or 2nd generation DS blade, but not rhenium based 2nd generation or above single crystal alloy

GE 404 that is being used on Tejas has 2nd gen single crystal blades. When the GE 404 first came, it had first generation single-crystal blade. See source: (https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1991/1991 - 0980.PDF). The GE404 being used now in Tejas has newer tech including a new hot section(read the sources I have quoted below). Therefore, F404-IN20 variant has 2nd gen SCB with Rhenium. GE414 has 3rd gen SCB with Rhenium. GE has further developed a new version of GE-414 which has CMC blades (source: GE Successfully Tests World’s First Rotating Ceramic Matrix Composite Material for Next-Gen Combat Engine).

The F404-GE-IN20 engine is an enhanced production version of the F404, which is successfully powering India’s Light Combat Aircraft MKI. The highest thrust variant of the F404 family, the F404-GE-IN20 incorporates GE’s latest hot section materials and technologies, as well as a FADEC for reliable power and outstanding operational characteristics.
Source: https://www.geaviation.com/sites/default/files/datasheet-F404-Family.pdf

Based on the F404-GE-402, the F404-GE-IN20 is the highest rated F404 model and includes a higher-flow fan, increased thrust, a Full Authority Digital Electronic Control (FADEC) system, single-crystal turbine blades and a variety of single-engine features.
Source: https://www.geaviation.com/press-re...0-engines-ordered-india-light-combat-aircraft

Bro I found something for you.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk

So looks like Rhenium is not our limitation after all. Its good to know that DMRL is working on 2nd gen SCB.
Thanks for the info buddy. Now we need someone going to DefExpo2018 to confirm if DRDO has indeed succeeded in making these blades and where they got the Rhenium from.

Interestingly both RD-33 and Kaveri engine falls into same class of 50-55 Kn dry thrust.
Difference between them is RD-33 is lengthier and large in diameter and less in weight compared to Kaveri.
If we can achieve the difference we can replace the RD-33 engines from Mig-29's of IAF and navy.

This is enough to show that Kaveri is a more advanced engine.

 

[Steven Rogers]

GE 404 that is being used on Tejas has 2nd gen single crystal blades. When the GE 404 first came, it had first generation single-crystal blade. See source: (https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1991/1991 - 0980.PDF). The GE404 being used now in Tejas has newer tech including a new hot section(read the sources I have quoted below). Therefore, F404-IN20 variant has 2nd gen SCB with Rhenium. GE414 has 3rd gen SCB with Rhenium. GE has further developed a new version of GE-414 which has CMC blades (source: GE Successfully Tests World’s First Rotating Ceramic Matrix Composite Material for Next-Gen Combat Engine).









So looks like Rhenium is not our limitation after all. Its good to know that DMRL is working on 2nd gen SCB.
Thanks for the info buddy. Now we need someone going to DefExpo2018 to confirm if DRDO has indeed succeeded in making these blades and where they got the Rhenium from.


This is enough to show that Kaveri is a more advanced engine.

I guess manufacturing and certification of the blade is only left as new SCB was patented in 2015.

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[Kshithij]

Interestingly both RD-33 and Kaveri engine falls into same class of 50-55 Kn dry thrust.
Difference between them is RD-33 is lengthier and large in diameter and less in weight compared to Kaveri.
If we can achieve the difference we can replace the RD-33 engines from Mig-29's of IAF and navy.

India manufactures RD33 in HAL. So, the replacement is not necessary. There is a saying - why fix something that is not broken.

GE 404 that is being used on Tejas has 2nd gen single crystal blades. When the GE 404 first came, it had first generation single-crystal blade. See source: (https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1991/1991 - 0980.PDF). The GE404 being used now in Tejas has newer tech including a new hot section(read the sources I have quoted below). Therefore, F404-IN20 variant has 2nd gen SCB with Rhenium. GE414 has 3rd gen SCB with Rhenium. GE has further developed a new version of GE-414 which has CMC blades (source: GE Successfully Tests World’s First Rotating Ceramic Matrix Composite Material for Next-Gen Combat Engine).









So looks like Rhenium is not our limitation after all. Its good to know that DMRL is working on 2nd gen SCB.
Thanks for the info buddy. Now we need someone going to DefExpo2018 to confirm if DRDO has indeed succeeded in making these blades and where they got the Rhenium from.


This is enough to show that Kaveri is a more advanced engine.

Are you sure that F404 uses 2nd generation SCB? The latest should mean 3rd generation SCB. I know that F404 uses powder metallurgy to make the turbines.

I have found a source that mentions the latest alloy of F404 - IN718 instead of was Rene 95 in compressor and turbine discs. IN718 is a superalloy meant to be used in powder metallurgy. DSR 80 is used in directionally solidified turbine blades. DSR80, which is DS Rene80 is used for turbine blades which does not have rhenium and is capable of being used in powder metallurgy. So, no SCB is used here:

https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_pdf.cfm?DACH_RECNO=989

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

DMRL have mastered 3rd generation SCB technology DMS4 and DMD4(directionally solidified) in the mid 90s. DMS4 has 6.5 % Rhenium content and Maximum temperature capability of about 1140C. Also developement of thermal barrier coating can increase to to 300C.
Source : https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s12666-010-0036-7.pdf

 

[no smoking]

So how did DRDO come up with single crystal tech in this decade?

Firstly, jet engine includes thousands of metal components, single crystal tech is used by only a part of them. There are still plenty of other components require other cutting-edge materials;


Secondly, when scientists claim that they already have a kind of new tech, it is only half truth. They didn’t mention is there is still long way to go before successfully applying this tech in specific product. If we take the single crystal tech as an example, After the scientists successfully produce this in their lab, they can claim the success. However, it is not over yet, the factory will take it over and start second round R&D on how to produce the single crystal in mass production with acceptable quality, and acceptable cost. This procedure may take even longer time to finish. And the story is not over yet. Since you need to use these new material on your blade, the tooling machine may also need to upgrade since the new material may be stronger, then you have to develop another metal knife, or new mould.

Some facilities are online in India, but we still need to go abroad for testing some things. I believe the government will undoubtedly throw more money at this project, or a new jet engine project, if negotiations with the French fail to bear fruit.

The problem is most of these facilities are made of also cutting-edge techs, there are very few countries can build them. They do not only require fund, but also time. Do recall, some of the test facilities took both Chinese and Japanese more than 10 years to complete.

Kaveri is almost there. This is a fact. We require foreign due to time constraint.

You can only say that when your engine starts to fly on a fighter jet.

GTRE is not close to resolving the last few problems remaining because we still do not have all the test facilities required in India. Remember the blade throw issue? GTRE tried to isolate the cause for 3 years. Then they gave up and went to Russia for some tests. Figured out the problem immediately. Had the facility been present here, we would not have had to waste so much f**king time. So you are absolutely correct when you say that the government has invested nothing in Kaveri.

The way I read this story is: It took Indian scientists 3 years to understand that they will need certain kind of test facilities to fix the problem. It is not their fault, in most of cases, you won’t know what kind of testing facilities you will need before you are developing something by yourselves. These are part of knowledge and experience as well. But it is definitely anyone else fault, people won’t provide fund for something even yourselves don’t know about it.