Kaveri Engine

[Cutting Edge 2]

Is it successful and ready for production??

Not yet.

Engine will take long time before becoming operational ready. Many issues needs to be ironed out. This is only a beginning in the right direction. More prototypes will be built and tested.

Should be noted that Kaveri marine turboshaft is separate development from low bypass turbofan. So now it is confirmed that we have at least 4 jet engines in development. 2 turbofan engines with afterburner, 1 without afterburner and 1 marine turboshaft. Interesting times ahead.

EDIT:
Add one more engine for CMs and number is 5. Not bad!

 

[Steven Rogers]

Not yet.

Engine will take long time before becoming operational ready. Many issues needs to be ironed out. This is only a beginning in the right direction. More prototypes will be built and tested.

Should be noted that Kaveri marine turboshaft is separate development from low bypass turbofan. So now it is confirmed that we have at least 4 jet engines in development. 2 turbofan engines with afterburner, 1 without afterburner and 1 marine turboshaft. Interesting times ahead.

EDIT:
Add one more engine for CMs and number is 5. Not bad!

Marine Gas turbine not Turboshaft....

 

[Vorschlaghammer]

Marine Gas turbine not Turboshaft....

Well technically marine gas turbine engines are turboshaft after a certain point, cause the propeller needs a shaft to turn it.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Well technically marine gas turbine engines are turboshaft after a certain point, cause the propeller needs a shaft to turn it.

Technically you are correct, it's precise to call it Gas turbine shaft driven propulsion.... But we basically use Turboshaft for helicopter engine, so it makes confusion to newbies, you indeed are correct.

 

[torque456]

Had heard somewhere that gtre folks had busted kaveri engine prototype and were sitting doing nothing some months back? Anyone can confirm that.

 

[Vijyes]

Had heard somewhere that gtre folks had busted kaveri engine prototype and were sitting doing nothing some months back? Anyone can confirm that.

Can't they make another one as they made the original prototype themselves.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Had heard somewhere that gtre folks had busted kaveri engine prototype and were sitting doing nothing some months back? Anyone can confirm that.

No its not, they kept on developing even after drdo officially abandoned the project.... They kept working with DMRL on metallurgy.... They need a test bed for testings and if they had got it 10 years back... Kaveri would have operationalized.

 

[torque456]

They had got funding for 20 more prototypes some time back but engines take time. Especially during development cycle. Could take years. Core of kaveri is primitive. That's why they are replacing it with m88 engine core. I guess they will improve and refine the core independent of lga programe. Could take another decade. A truly indigenous kaveri may take 10-15 years according to me.

The prototypes under construction seem to be production variants which will help refine the core. Each new one better than the last.
A lot of areas need improvement. Flying test bed is not much needed right now. We are back to drawing boards for now.

 

[Steven Rogers]

They had got funding for 20 more prototypes some time back but engines take time. Especially during development cycle. Could take years. Core of kaveri is primitive. That's why they are replacing it with m88 engine core. I guess they will improve and refine the core independent of lga programe. Could take another decade. A truly indigenous kaveri may take 10-15 years according to me.

The prototypes under construction seem to be production variants which will help refine the core. Each new one better than the last.
A lot of areas need improvement. Flying test bed is not much needed right now. We are back to drawing boards for now.

M88 old gen core will be used, Noone develops an engine from scratch and future Kaveri will be derived from what we have made today, core in Kaveri is itself a challenging turbojet and is absolutely fine, last I heard it met all its requirements on ground but the new requirements are on increased thrust... Only materials need to be improved, the current DS BLADES WILL be replaced with the newer 2nd gen SCB by indo French jv and later that blade will be replaced by DMRL 3rd gen SCB. Need material improvement in High pressureturbine blade and Low pressure turbine, New super alloys, TiAl, new thermal barrier coatings and bond coat will make the Kaveri engine retain its thrust for longer time. But these developments and implications of these direct on engine is still 5-6 years if we go on our own.

 

[Vijyes]

They had got funding for 20 more prototypes some time back but engines take time. Especially during development cycle. Could take years. Core of kaveri is primitive. That's why they are replacing it with m88 engine core. I guess they will improve and refine the core independent of lga programe. Could take another decade. A truly indigenous kaveri may take 10-15 years according to me.

The prototypes under construction seem to be production variants which will help refine the core. Each new one better than the last.
A lot of areas need improvement. Flying test bed is not much needed right now. We are back to drawing boards for now.

Thank god you didn't say a century. I was so scared. Why India needs a decade more when other countries have done it long back? If you have proper reasons, state them. Or are you simply trying to insult our scientists?

By the way, you appear to be a new comer. So, read the threads properly before making judgement

 

[torque456]

Any new engine development takes years. Manipulating the core of the engine is like building a new engine. All major jet turbines in use today have long histories. They rarely change the core and instead just uprate the engine through change in flow rates etc. Look at the variants of f404 or sukhi engines or of commercial airliners. This is the reason why kaveri was delinked from amca even though it's easily 15 years away. Perfecting kaveri even after development will take a very long time for fighter jets.

Core of kaveri still uses inferior blisks and second generation scbs. Even after investing close to two decades apart from less thrust it has flutter and noise issues.
Our scientists have done a stellar job with extreme constraints but we underestimated the task at hand.

There is a reason barely three companies have the know how to make a complete jet engine.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Any new engine development takes years. Manipulating the core of the engine is like building a new engine. All major jet turbines in use today have long histories. They rarely change the core and instead just uprate the engine through change in flow rates etc. Look at the variants of f404 or sukhi engines or of commercial airliners. This is the reason why kaveri was delinked from amca even though it's easily 15 years away. Perfecting kaveri even after development will take a very long time for fighter jets.

Core of kaveri still uses inferior blisks and second generation scbs. Even after investing close to two decades apart from less thrust it has flutter and noise issues.
Our scientists have done a stellar job with extreme constraints but we underestimated the task at hand.

There is a reason barely three companies have the know how to make a complete jet engine.

Blisk and SCB is no problem in lab, but a problem to repeat the same in industries... DMRL is in final stages of SCB, GTRE has been talking and doing in the field of reliability of superalloys and their operational life.

 

[torque456]

Blisk and SCB is no problem in lab, but a problem to repeat the same in industries... DMRL is in final stages of SCB, GTRE has been talking and doing in the field of reliability of superalloys and their operational life.

That's why I am saying integration of said technologies with production alienation and fine tuning the engine would take a decade at the very minimum.

 

[Steven Rogers]

That's why I am saying integration of said technologies with production alienation and fine tuning the engine would take a decade at the very minimum.

When you have designs and blueprints of your own, you don't a decade to integrate, current techniques such as computational flow analysis, 3rd printing solves most of bad manufacturing problems... All you need is a proven design and proven metallurgy these days.

 

[torque456]

Just a few months back saurav jha had mentioned all issues with kaveri right now. We have barely begun integrating or properly announcing a new engine program. We don't even have the proposed thrust or requisite jet where we are going to put the said engine. We have explicitly said kaveri isn't going to amca.
We have just said that we are going to substitute the core of kaveri with m88. Which will easily take 5 years to completely under best circumstances.

With these all data and past history of developing jet engines even for experienced manufacturers. I doubt any usable engine on any plane before 15 years. Look at russia how their al 41f basically a modification of an older engine is yet to appear. Imagine how would we fare to produce a modern engine with no experience.

CFD and 3d printing is useless at engine core burning at thousands of degrees. Our present core is atleast 300-400 degrees off the mark. Fine tuning even after all metallurgical challenges and flight tests will take up 5 years at very best.

We certainly don't have a blueprint when we don't have all the requisite tech in hand. We have been running around asking for hot engine tech from us and france. Which noone is ready to give.

 

[torque456]

That's why I am saying integration of said technologies with production alienation and fine tuning the engine would take a decade at the very minimum.

We are not even able to solve our current engine problems and have been seeking consultants.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Just a few months back saurav jha had mentioned all issues with kaveri right now. We have barely begun integrating or properly announcing a new engine program. We don't even have the proposed thrust or requisite jet where we are going to put the said engine. We have explicitly said kaveri isn't going to amca.
We have just said that we are going to substitute the core of kaveri with m88. Which will easily take 5 years to completely under best circumstances.

With these all data and past history of developing jet engines even for experienced manufacturers. I doubt any usable engine on any plane before 15 years. Look at russia how their al 41f basically a modification of an older engine is yet to appear. Imagine how would we fare to produce a modern engine with no experience.

CFD and 3d printing is useless at engine core burning at thousands of degrees. Our present core is atleast 300-400 degrees off the mark. Fine tuning even after all metallurgical challenges and flight tests will take up 5 years at very best.

We certainly don't have a blueprint when we don't have all the requisite tech in hand. We have been running around asking for hot engine tech from us and france. Which noone is ready to give.

Noone cares about what Saurav Jha thinks or posts. The thrust is already proposed above 110kN with new Kaveri engine. The exiting core will be modified. Kaveri K9 could easily replace the GEF414 in initial phase and prototypes, not we but French are going to replace the core, and that's a big mistake by this JV, the temperature of the core was already par and achieved the required temperature at hot section, lol AL41f is already flying with Su35, while item 30 is a major and fairly new engine than the AL41f, it is 250kgs lighter and 30kN more thrust THAN THE AL41F, it has 4th gen SCB vanes.... CFD and 3D printing solve the problems In design of Aero engine which were frequently occurred in 90s.... It is also responsible for the precise manufacturing of the parts. "300-400"degress of, are you serious. Their is no such thing Called fine tuning, every Aero engine takes Atleast 5 years of test on testbed before certified for production.

 

[torque456]

Noone cares about what Saurav Jha thinks or posts. The thrust is already proposed above 110kN with new Kaveri engine. The exiting core will be modified. Kaveri K9 could easily replace the GEF414 in initial phase and prototypes, not we but French are going to replace the core, and that's a big mistake by this JV, the temperature of the core was already par and achieved the required temperature at hot section, lol AL41f is already flying with Su35, while item 30 is a major and fairly new engine than the AL41f, it is 250kgs lighter and 30kN more thrust THAN THE AL41F, it has 4th gen SCB vanes.... CFD and 3D printing solve the problems In design of Aero engine which were frequently occurred in 90s.... It is also responsible for the precise manufacturing of the parts. "300-400"degress of, are you serious. Their is no such thing Called fine tuning, every Aero engine takes Atleast 5 years of test on testbed before certified for production.

Do you have any source which talks about 110 kn thrust. Saurav jha has been right about a lot of things in the past and I haven't seen a more reliable source of information than him. Check bharat rakshak sticky for current kaveri status. I was mistaken about fgfa engine but still their progress on that front has not been satisfactory for iaf. Even get engine kept cropping up issues until recently. The 300 400 degree figure is from many knowledgeable people.

Ultimately my point is it's not going to be easy. It's just my opinion based on some open source info and history and some people. Take it or leave it. Even DRDO has not given a deadline for this niche project when they keep drumming up amca which is decades away. Let's see.

 

[Steven Rogers]

Do you have any source which talks about 110 kn thrust. Saurav jha has been right about a lot of things in the past and I haven't seen a more reliable source of information than him. Check bharat rakshak sticky for current kaveri status. I was mistaken about fgfa engine but still their progress on that front has not been satisfactory for iaf. Even get engine kept cropping up issues until recently. The 300 400 degree figure is from many knowledgeable people.

Ultimately my point is it's not going to be easy. It's just my opinion based on some open source info and history and some people. Take it or leave it. Even DRDO has not given a deadline for this niche project when they keep drumming up amca which is decades away. Let's see.

Another old sold crap..... Iaf never said a word against the new engine... And that new engine is developed withing 5years as of now and is now heading to IL76 for testing.... Does saurav jha knows anything about the Gas Turbine engine, 400 degrees, Kaveri hot core section currently withstands 1700K flat rate, which enables Kaveri to generate 81kN thrust, with regards to EU200 it is 100 degrees less while falling the same class. It is also to note that Kaveri requirements was based on 87s not of 2010s.... In the last what Saurav Jha holds Any credible knowledge about the Ghatak UCAV or HTFE-25.

 

[torque456]

Another old sold crap..... Iaf never said a word against the new engine... And that new engine is developed withing 5years as of now and is now heading to IL76 for testing.... Does saurav jha knows anything about the Gas Turbine engine, 400 degrees, Kaveri hot core section currently withstands 1700K flat rate, which enables Kaveri to generate 81kN thrust, with regards to EU200 it is 100 degrees less while falling the same class. It is also to note that Kaveri requirements was based on 87s not of 2010s.... In the last what Saurav Jha holds Any credible knowledge about the Ghatak UCAV or HTFE-25.

We will wait and see then. Would be elated if I am wrong.