Kashmir unfinished agenda of 1947: Pak army chief

Discussion in 'Pakistan' started by Rashna, Jun 4, 2015.

  1. Rashna

    Rashna Senior Member Senior Member

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    Kashmir unfinished agenda of 1947: Pak army chief

    ISLAMABAD: A day after India accused Pakistan of "forcible and illegal occupation" of Gilgit-Baltistan, Pakistan army chief General Raheel Sharif on Wednesday said that Pakistan and Kashmir were "inseparable".


    Describing Kashmir as "an unfinished agenda of Partition" he linked lasting peace in the region to the resolution of the Kashmir problem as per the UN resolutions that call for a plebiscite in J&K.

    "While we wish for peace and stability in the region, we want Kashmir's just resolution in the light of the United Nations resolutions and as per aspirations of the Kashmiri people to bring lasting peace in the region," he said while addressing a seminar at the National Defense University here.

    The remarks came a day after India dismissed June 8 polls in Gilgit-Baltistan as Islamabad's "attempt to camouflage its forcible and illegal occupation of the region", which was part of the princely state of Kashmir before 1947.


    Sharif said that contours of future wars were fast changing. "While our enemies are supporting terrorism to stoke sub-conventional conflicts and destabilize our country, we are fully determined, capable of defeating nefarious designs," he said.

    He claimed Pakistan was opposed to the use proxies against other countries and would not allow any country to use proxies versus his country.

    General Sharif's statement is the latest in the series of statements from Pakistani accusing India of stoking terrorism in Pakistan and destabilizing the country. Top government officials here have said India was attempting to sabotage Pakistan's $46 billion agreements with China.


    Separately, Pakistani foreign office spokesperson Qazi Khalilullah said India maintained "its illegal hold on Jammu & Kashmir by suppressing Kashmiri Muslims and holding sham elections at gunpoint" while responding to his Indian counterpart's statement on Gilgit-Baltistan.

    He echoed Sharif and said the Kashmir dispute stems from India's "constant refusal" to implement the UN resolutions, "which provide for a just solution of the Kashmir issue".

    "Kashmir is an internationally recognized dispute, pending final settlement through a free and impartial plebiscite under the UN auspices, as enshrined in numerous UN resolutions," he said. "Under these resolutions no material change is allowed. Yet India, in complete violation of these resolutions, calls it a state of the union."

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...-1947-Pak-army-chief/articleshow/47535136.cms
     
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  3. Rashna

    Rashna Senior Member Senior Member

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    Yesterday i happened to see one program on BBC where the entire state of Jammu & Kashmir was not shown as part of India... we need to get rid of this so called disputed territory tag because the Britishers and Americans want to keep this part of the world unstable... this has become amply evident by now.
     
  4. argumentum

    argumentum Regular Member

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    The way to do this is for India to unilaterally declare that the only parts of Kashmir up for discussion is gilgit baltistan and aksai chin, and that it considers the other parts of the LOC to be international borders.

    The U.S. and UK don't really care, but because India doesn't take a strong stance the elements within the west that do care (paki immigrants) are able to exert influence.

    Why does the U.S. no longer talk about Taiwan or Tibet? Because China takes a hard line.
     
  5. Rashna

    Rashna Senior Member Senior Member

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    Well that will be a paradigm shift in India's attitude... so far its been like a softie ice cream because we don't really know what support pakistan will garner from these english speaking countries.. Now you know why your whole concept of anglosphere is absurd.. If there was any such thing it would not have been 67 years of struggle and fighting with our own symbiotic twin a creation of the Brits and something that never sees resolution. It is said that Nehru agreed to take this to the UN on advice given by the British who said that they would see to it that the dispute was settled in favor of India... Its been 67 years and we are still waiting.....

     
  6. argumentum

    argumentum Regular Member

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    Nehru also declined an American offer in 1950 for India to replace China at the UN. Nehru didn't understand that in relations of power, you must show strength and confidence in pursuit of self interest.

    Since India repeatedly rejected American support, including an offer of nuclear weapons by Kennedy, America gave up and looked elsewhere.
     
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  7. argumentum

    argumentum Regular Member

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    Also the UN is a worthless organization now. The general assembly is dominated by the OIC, which votes as a block on all "islamic" issues. The security council will never add new members, because some country will always veto (China, in the case of India).

    The existing world order is coming to an end, and the existing global institutions and alliances will end with it. (UN, NATO, EU etc)

    Instead of dwelling on the past, we should be thinking about what new alliances and institutions can be built to create a new world order that benefits our countries.

    This is where the idea of the anglosphere comes in .. With regards to its future utility.
     
  8. Rashna

    Rashna Senior Member Senior Member

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    Nehru made some mistakes is true and our going the Soviet way didn't help issues..But in the long term America hasn't really helped India in any of its security related issues... Do you think this will change any time soon? The US is in principle funding terror against India by allowing the Pakistanis a free run... Where is justice in 26/11?

     
  9. Zebra

    Zebra Senior Member Senior Member

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    Sir, take it in other way......Nehru understand it and that is why he refused that UN offer.

    One another example, good enough to explain Nehru's anti India nature --> how Nehru ignored Kashmir.

    Unfortunately, that is how Indian socialist work. They drag India behind. They don't like fast pace of development in India. And rejecting American support is part of it.

    They use "anti Americanism" as a tool.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2015
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  10. Rashna

    Rashna Senior Member Senior Member

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    Why anglosphere? Why not an Indosphere.... India has the capacity to become a leader in its own right... If the UN is defunct then all the more better, they should drop all these tags of "disputed" territories. NATO, the US and the EU are in a holy alliance for a long time now... Japan was the only Asian power to have gone against them, and now they might consider China to be the next anti alliance power.. China is creating its own circle of influence and India is still struggling with 67 year old disputes and border disputes.. We are responsible for this soft state approach but much of the blame lies with the Janus approach that the "anglosphere" has used against us. With Pakistan our dispute will never end because China is now in the picture too... and the British are playing their own game in AfPak region.....

     
  11. argumentum

    argumentum Regular Member

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    It doesn't matter what it's called (anglosphere / indosphere), actually I prefer the term "empire of liberty", a term coined by Thomas Jefferson. All I'm advocating is that those who believe in classical liberal principles (personal liberty, political equality, republicanism & democracy, rule of law etc) should band together to strengthen and propagate these ideals around the world.
     
  12. argumentum

    argumentum Regular Member

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    Also, if you've read the arthashastra, you will know that China id forever destined to be an enemy state.

    The importance of the anglosphere is that there are powerful Indian origin communities in all the anglosphere countries.

    If India helps us build global institutions like Israel has done with the Jewish diaspora, we can wield greater influence over our countries' policies wrt India.
     
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  13. Rashna

    Rashna Senior Member Senior Member

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    If language is the basis then you know english is an Indo- european language. So if anything we need to call it "Indosphere".... These ideals are in place in countries where they find takers already... The Rest v/s us War has taken on many colors through the ages... How much of it is dictated by economics? To keep the discussion on topic, where does pakistan fit in this classic liberalism? The reason China has managed to seduce pakistan is that they share some anti-liberalism DNA. This after years of being an ally of the US. Much of it is related to economics IMO.

     
  14. argumentum

    argumentum Regular Member

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    Language is not the basis, it's just a facilitator. The basis is shared liberal principles.

    Pakistan chose to go down the illiberal route.

    I think all liberal democratic states should ally with and support each other. Neither the U.S. or India has a perfect record in this respect, but again I'm talking about the future.
     
  15. Mad Indian

    Mad Indian Proud Bigot Veteran Member Senior Member

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    Wow. It must take quite the effort to advocate for pro US stand here when even now US is funding Pakistan. So much for the ideals of US. At the end of the day, political pragmatism trumps wishy washy stuff about liberty or what not. Seriously dude , how can you not see the massive western hypocrisy? And no we are not allied to Saudi Arabia. We do business. Our ties with Iran is similiar to US ties with Saudis. You must be a massive hypocrite to say that we should stop our ties with Iran for its connection to terrorism all the while US is sleeping with Saudis who arguably are worst scum in the world wrt terrorism
     
  16. Rashna

    Rashna Senior Member Senior Member

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    Its all wishing that is all.. In reality we are nowhere near any such sphere.
    Read this.. It kind of encapsulates everything very nicely.... I don't know how influential the Indian diaspora can become to bring about some really serious changes in the US- India relationship. You have a Bobby Jindal who turned Christian.... so what kind of commitment would there be towards India?
    http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/03/06...-will-not-be-pakistan-2-0-in-u-s-asia-policy/

     
  17. genius

    genius Regular Member

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    In politics, nobody 'helps' - nations cooperate based on mutual interest. India has had a diabolical policy regarding the west. India gets thrashed by china, is hated by Pakistan, mistrusted by Lanka (among other Asian nations), and yet without any pragmatism India keeps waxing lyrical on Asian unity, nonalignment, etc, and is skeptical about the west. Makes little sense.
     
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  18. Rashna

    Rashna Senior Member Senior Member

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    Well they can help us by not funding terrorism, that's not too much to ask for... Who likes China with the exception of Pakistan and North Korea? Does China care about that? Then why should India? Smaller neighbours are very well treated by India... their belligerence goes unpunished...

     
  19. Srinivas_K

    Srinivas_K Senior Member Senior Member

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    1) UN resolution is not time bound and compulsory.

    2) Kashmir of today is completely different from Kashmir of 1947.

    3) These guys who are making statements " Kashmir is inseparable" are the same guys who gave part of Kashmir to China --- Hypocrites , these guys talk what suits them and they talk loud.

    4) The resolution only works in 1947 when the population is native, not now since GB and PoK has undergone demographic change due to the influx of Sunni militants and their supporting infrastructure.

    5) Pakistan keeps forgetting Simla agreement which makes this a bilateral issue and Internationally UN or any other nation cannot do mediating --- These guys are trying to fool people.

    6) Regarding peace with Pakistan --- Let there be no delusions ... India should go for talks trusting its strengths and capabilities, not by instincts.

    Pakistan is a different case .... they only call for peace in two instances

    a) Their army cannot fight a war or take on a bigger enemy.

    b) They have won the battle converted the whole region into kingdom of their god slaughtering people who oppose their beliefs or making the people who refuse to convert into second class citizens(dimmis).

    7) India do not have territorial ambitions.
    We are not yet there to confidently defend our interests.... we should take a defensive posture and let our economy grow along with our capabilities.

    8) India is happy with the current status except the chinese incursions into Pok and GB. GB and PoK belong to India.
    9) we should take a stand on chinese aggression in Pok and GB.

    Kashmir is not a part of Pakistan in the past .... these guys talk as if Pakistan was born with kashmir. Kashmir is an independent country and Pakistan recognizes this .... now they have altered the status and conducted elections in PoK ..... this is a signal they are accepting the status quo .... the general is making confusing statements.

    Regarding Kashmiri aspirations Indian democracy will take care of that.
    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2015
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  20. sob

    sob Moderator Moderator

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    Gentlemen and Lady let us not degrees from the topic.
     
  21. sob

    sob Moderator Moderator

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    One has to remember the backdrop of the comment from the PA Chief.

    Recently huge defence deals have been announced, procurement from the US and also the Sub deal with China. There was a growing protest in Pakistan over the huge expenditure on defence while the general economy was in very bad shape. These protests had to be stopped so the Indian Bogey had to be brought forward.

    That is the reason why we saw that immediately after the shooting of the shias in the bus, Paksitan was quick to blame RAW. The recent report of RAW having a budget of US $500 Million to destabilise Chinese Investment in Pakistan, also has to be seen in this context.

    And now we see the Media in Pakistan is no longer questioning the exorbitant purchases. PA is the knight in shining armour once again.
     
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