Kargil poor test of India's air warfare capability: Carnegie Endowment

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Ray, Sep 21, 2012.

  1. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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  3. Blackwater

    Blackwater Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    Re: IAF in the Kargil War

    what was the role of newly obtained su-30 at that time.??


    Did IAF ever used them in kargil??/
     
  4. steel

    steel Regular Member

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  5. Virendra

    Virendra Moderator Moderator

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    Re: IAF in the Kargil War

    "Less room for maneuvre is agreed with. Can't do much about it.

    Followng are some important takeaway for folks familiair with Defense Organizations like DRDO and their work.

    "...IAF’s munitions did not perform aerodynamically to their familiar specifications for lower release altitudes.
    The reduced air temperature and density above the Kargil heights altered drag indices and other performance parameters that had never before been calculated for those conditions,
    causing weapons not to guide as predicted and requiring adaptation of delivery techniques through real-time improvisation.

    "...More to the point, as a result of the reduced aerodynamic drag caused by the surrounding thin air at higher altitudes, unguided munitions tended to overshoot their intended aim points. Precision munitions tended to have greater trajectory inertia, which translated into an increase in the weapon’s normal circular error probable...."

    The author is quoting plenty of contemporary communication and articles/books written later by various men in Army and IA who took part in the battle.

    Regards,
    Virendra
     
  6. wild goose

    wild goose Regular Member

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    Kargil conflict was a “poor test” of India's air warfare capability, a prominent US think-tank has said, warning that with threats of future wars with Pakistan and China persisting, Indian defence establishment has to prepare accordingly.

    “Despite the happy ending of the Kargil experience for India, the IAF's fighter pilots were restricted in their operations due to myriad challenges specific to this campaign. They were thus consigned to do what they could rather than what they might have done if they had more room for maneuver,” said the think-tank in a report released on Thursday.

    The Kargil war, in which India emerged victorious over Pakistan, the 70-page report titles 'Airpower At 18,000: the Indian Air Force in the Kargil War' further brought to light the initial near-total lack of transparency and open communication between Indian Army's top leaders and the IAF.

    The report by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace said the covert Pakistani intrusion into Jammu and Kashmir had exposed a gaping hole in India's nationwide real-time intelligence.

    “On a strategic level, the Kargil War vividly demonstrated that a stable bilateral nuclear deterrence relationship can markedly inhibit such regional conflicts in intensity and scale -- if not preclude them altogether,” it said.

    “In the absence of the nuclear stabilizing factor, those flash points could erupt into open-ended conventional showdowns for the highest stakes. But the Kargil War also demonstrated that nuclear deterrence is not a panacea,” the report said.

    It said the possibility of future conventional wars of major consequence along India's borders with Pakistan and China persists, and the Indian defence establishment must plan and prepare accordingly.

    According to the report, Pakistan's military leaders miscalculated badly in their apparent belief that the international community would press immediately for a cease-fire in Kashmir out of concern over a possible escalation of the fighting to the nuclear level, with the net result that Pakistan would be left with an easily acquired new slice of the terrain on the Indian side of the LoC.

    Carnegie said the nuclear balance between the two countries did not deter a determined Indian conventional response, and the successful reaction that India ultimately mounted on the Kargil heights fell well short of being all out in scale.

    “Furthermore, since the Vajpayee government scrupulously kept its combat operations confined to Indian-controlled Kashmir, the international community had no compelling reason to intervene,” it said.

    As a result, a remote but high-intensity and high-stakes showdown was allowed to run on for more than two months, something the Pakistan Army's leaders all but certainly did not anticipate when they first conjured up their incursion plan.

    The Kargil experience also suggested that if China and Pakistan came to appreciate that India possessed overwhelming conventional force preponderance in the region, that presence could act as a deterrent against such provocations in the future, it said.

    According to the report, prudent Indian defence planners will likely find themselves shortchanged in their preparations for the full spectrum of possible challenges to their country's security in years to come if they draw undue comfort from the happy ending of the Kargil experience and accept that conflict as their only planning baseline for hedging against future contingencies along the Line of Control.



    Kargil was poor test of India's air warfare capability: US think tank - Indian Express
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2012
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  7. trackwhack

    trackwhack Tihar Jail Banned

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    Kargil was redeemed alright. But we have Israel to thank a lot for. I dread the thought of what might have happened if Congress was in power. Not taking sides but there was (and still is) obvious affinity between Israel and BJP.
     
  8. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    if congress was in power, then we wont have gone to Lahore, RAW and IB wont have given the news, which PM of the day wanted to hear, etc, etc.

    any way things could have gone from bad to worse. But victory was finally ours.
     
  9. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    I dont know about Party and Politics, But If we see IAF faults..

    1. They never think about this senerio which is inside Indian borders and was already a conflict zone..

    2. Only Srinagar Airport was used for all types of sorties, There were no plan for other Airbases in the region despite knowing this is a conflict zone..

    3. When IAF lose Chopper and Fighter they stopped there CAS for Army during conflict times..
     
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  10. Bheeshma

    Bheeshma Regular Member

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    Wasn't the cold start formulated after kargil. It is a brilliant concept but must integrate all three arms. Hit the enemy at a place and time of our choosing.
     
  11. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Yes, it is..

    But one should able to hit the targets too.. this is where IAF failed in early days of War..
     
  12. Illusive

    Illusive Senior Member Senior Member

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    Wasn't it after the parliament attack?
     
  13. SADAKHUSH

    SADAKHUSH Senior Member Senior Member

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    What I fail to understand why did India not open other fronts? This was a missed opportunity to take back occupied parts of Kashmir and after the cease fire no peace talks to take place till they move their Army out of entire territory of India.
     
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  14. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    for that people at the control of things need balls of steels, persons at that time did't had them.
     
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  15. ani82v

    ani82v Senior Member Senior Member

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    Makes even more stronger case of Joint Command.
    Back in the days there was Joint Cadet Commission. Now there are no chances of that happening right from bottom to the top. This leaves a lot of room for blame games and finger pointing.
    Cold start is already given a cold shoulder by IAF.

    How difficult is it to put together Joint Strategic Command? I am sure they would find it unworkable right now because dislike of top brass for each other in different wings and tendency to look down upon each other. Now who is supposed to fix this?
     
  16. Blackwater

    Blackwater Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    my Q was deleted by MODS

    anyhow i ask again

    Was Su-30 used in kargil??? if yes, what was their role??if not y not????
     
  17. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    The SU-30K of those times never operated over extreme north most probably due to there Engines & High Maintenance Cost due to there Number which was only 18 ( Imported spares )..

    Where as MIG-29 been operated at those altitude and there had large number so reduced maintenance costs..

    ---------------------

    That is what Media portrait to people..

    In reality there is no problem between IAF or IA on Ground but layout of the system which let things down, The people which are root of this issue are in MOD..
     
  18. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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  19. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Meaning NDA entry?
     
  20. Blackwater

    Blackwater Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    but dont you think SU-30 had better engine and better radars and missile system than mig-29.:sad::sad:


    Only if they are not used becoz they were new and only 18 is ridiculous:rolleyes:
     
  21. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    It matter alot.. why ? :

    There are few aircraft with few engines, If one use the jet for one hour it needs next 4 hours of maintenance, Out on battlefield one need continues eyes and protection in skys, If you use these, this much there will be none in Air all the time hence opportunity for Enemy Air-force..
     

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