Discussion in 'Pakistan' started by Ray, Sep 12, 2014.
Maybe @Neo's and other Pakistanis fundamentals would get cleared by this commentary.
Ray Sir , hope u heard about this below
It's easy to awaken who is really asleep, but impossible to raise those who pretend to sleep. Pakistan cannot learn because only a real state can learn.. not an anti-state..... Pakistan's genesis was as what is opposite Indian state, the anti-state. It was never a nation... only a notion juxtaposed to Indian nation.
Well well, generally you guys deny every report coming out of Pakistan but this blog article becomes a gospel truth because it serves your interests?
How pathetic can you be?
Who would you believe, a Pakistani retired general or his Indian counterpart?
Listen what your own Red Gen Krishan Pal has to say about the embarassement.
I hope Indian chest thumping fundamentals would get cleared by his commentry:
NEW DELHI: An Indian general, who commanded troops during 1999 Kargil war, on Sunday broke his 11-year silence to say that India actually lost the war in strategic terms.
Lieutenant-General (r) Kishan Pal, the then head of Srinagar-based 15 Corps, told a private channel that he did not speak because he was never convinced about this war.
Â“We did gain some tactical victories, we regained the territories, but lost 587 precious lives. I consider this loss of war because whatever we gained from the war has not been consolidated, either politically or diplomatically. It has not been consolidated militarily,Â” he said, when was asked for his assessment of the conflict 11 years later.
Gen Pal was recently in a controversy involving the battle performance report of one of his juniors, Brigadier Devinder Singh. An armed forces tribunal has indicted Pal for showing bias against Brigadier Singh; former 70 infantry brigade commander, and belittled his achievements in the war besides falsifying accounts of battles during the Kargil operations.
Meanwhile, a Chandigarh-based former army major has also come out with a revelation that his inputs on Kargil Â‘intrusionÂ’, sent to his seniors as early as January-February 1999, were ignored and he was asked to stop sending such reports in writing.
Major Manish Bhatnagar, who participated in the Kargil war, said not only were his inputs ignored, later, when a full-scale conflict broke out, he was court martialled on another pretext and made to leave the army.
He said he had informed his senior officers about the heavy presence of hostile forces and had also apprised them of the large number of bunkers and occupation of vital points by them during his posting. Â“Later, when the strength of Â‘intrudersÂ’ was found to be more than the perceptions of the top generals Â— resulting in mass causalities of soldiers Â— officers like me were persecuted to hide their wrongs,Â’Â” Bhatnagar said.
And in the meantime, strategic located Tiger Hill Point 5353 remains in Pakistani hands since the Kargil Conflict.
yeah a balm for aching beggar Pakistan and an eye sore for India % (if that makes you happy), but by my knowledge we never had tiger hill on our side, so dont try to make hero out of your self oN basis of Indian self restrictions. it is just like saying "SO WE LOST EAST PAKISTAN BUT WE SURELY SAVED WEST PAKISTAN".
Cintinue to live in denial.
Near Tiger Hill, Point 5353 still Pak-occupied
Manu Pubby : Drass, Mon Jul 13 2009
Standing tall and dominating the famous Tiger Hill on the Line of Control (LoC) is a grim reminder of the Kargil war. Point 5353, the highest peak in the region which has a clear view of the National Highway 1 D, remains occupied by Pakistan even a decade after the battle.
While the point is clearly on the Indian side of the LoC, it remains in Pakistani control which has fortified it with reinforced bunkers and has even built a special road nearby to carry up supplies for soldiers.
The Indian Army, which made several unsuccessful attempts to occupy the post after the Kargil war, has since given up the post as "untenable" given the geography of the region that makes it fairly easy for Pakistani troops to climb.
What makes Point 5353 so valuable for the two armies is that it has a clear view of the national highway that connects the Kashmir valley with Kargil. The main reason the Army retaliated hard to the Pakistani intrusion in 1999 was that disruption of traffic on the road would cut off supplies to Ladakh and the Siachen glacier.
While officers say that Point 5353 is surrounded by three Indian posts, including Point 5240 and any action from there would be neutralised, the fact remains that artillery observers from the post can easily direct fire on a 25 km stretch of the national highway.
Besides, the most dominating feature in the region has a clear view of the Tiger Hill and surrounding areas. Sources say Pakistan has constructed concrete bunkers at the location and have a special supply base on their side of the LoC that has substantial reinforcements.
Several attempts to dislodge Pakistani troops from the posts with the help of artillery fire remained unsuccessful till action became impossible after the 2003 ceasefire. The Army has since given up the option of retaking the post in the larger interest of peace in the area.
Near Tiger Hill, Point 5353 still Pak-occupied - Indian Express
There are two things I need to say:
1) We Love our Soldier and we treat their lives more precious than land or territory and they have gained the trust that they will not let any one take our land....We never disown our soldiers.......
2)Here Also General Krishan Pal Retired is telling the same thing loss of lives of our soldiers was bigger than victory we gained and its importance....
Embarrassment is about the fact that we trusted our neighbors and when we were talking peace leaving past behind they stabbed us in the back...I wont blame them(our enemies) we should have been cautious.... We could have saved all those lives if we had not trusted our neighbors and taken extra care and paid more attention......
but that lesson has been learnt ....
Wars or conflicts are based on final call... your PM knew how bad the state was that he had to go to US to seek permission for the weapon you proudly say you have.... you have got it .... Finally the objective was met....
So what is the local approach towards the partition of Pakistan?
Point 5353 was our art or not, it is still under whose control I have no idea and no reliable source to claim anything about it ... I have no idea about the strategic importance of the post....
but If not making it a issue leaving aside if that can be reoccupied by us or not if can help in maintaining peace its fine.....
Just a thing in conflicts there is gain some loose some equation.... your ultimate aim was not met and will never be met... gaining and loosng few posts is a big thing but loosing all wars is bigger.....
I know you will hve dispute over it....
So just do tell me whats the status of 1971 war at your side?
If you want to know what embarassment is, ask the families of those Pak soldiers who were killed there but whose existence was denied by your beloved Generals.
If you want to know what embarassment is, ask those Pakistanis who have seen dead bodies of their own soldiers being dumped in middle of night in their hometown like logs of wood with no proper military funeral. This by your own govt and Generals.
So please spare your attempts to "embarass" India, lest of all when it comes to Kargil war.
You are a piece of work.... You report some cooked up news from a paki newspaper about a general's talk on a private channel (no name of a channel) and expect to call that your victory.
Also, what happened to your 'rule of trolling'... the last time we had an exchange, when people responded to your cooked up news of kashmiri students being beaten up in Chandigarh, you went crying to the mods that you were getting trolled and wanted others to respond specifically to your post..... typical paki style...
Now, when the roles are reversed you pull fake news items out of your ass to counter someone, instead of countering the first post word for word...
You are indeed a paki sample....
BTW, you have not responded to the offer of a debate ..
The article with the Pakistani source is a summery of Rtd Gen Kishen Pal's interview to NDTV genius. How very typical trigger happy Indian mentality at display again. Read before you reply.
And save your sarcasm, its lost on me. Where am I trolling?
Why don't you sue your general who talks of embarassement in the first place.
Why don't you give proper burials to those from your end first? That would bring much needed joy to families of soldiers died for Pak.
Don't worry about Generals here, worry about those who died from your side and not even a peep coming out to validate their sacrifices. Embarassing and a disgrace.
So was the Pakistani objective in Kargil to kill about 500 Indian soldiers? Albeit at the loss of double that number of lives?
gen-shahidaziz.blogspot.com - Does that look like an NDTV link......
Its not sarcasm that is lost on you, it is common sense...
The writer is a Retd Lt Gen of the Pak Army and not any old small fry but a person but a Former GOC 4 Corps, Pak Army and he was I was then (during the Kargil Ops) heading the Analysis Wing of Inter Services Intelligence! The last is no mean job at that. Big time in the Pakistan military way of doing things!
For omissions and commissions of the Pak Army and the Pak Army one would believe the Pak General. That assumption surely requires no rocket science, or does it?
And unlike India where we have had the Kargil Review Committee that is in the open forum and host of books written on the Kargil Ops, while in Pakistan a study commenced by GHQ to identify issues of concern at the lowest levels of command, was forcefully stopped by Musharraf!
Kargil was a tactical operation and not a strategic operation. Anyone would know that.
Strategic operations are when strategic objectives are to be met. Therefore, throwing out the Pakistan Army intrusion can hardly be called a strategic aim or operation.
By Strategic loss what Lt Gen Kishen Pal is implying is that since the Govt of India did not allow the Army and Air Force to enlarge the envelope by moving into POK beyond the Shingo, the strategic ambit to what the operation could have achieved has been lost and to that extent he is right.
However, it was not the intention of the Govt of India to extend and enlarge the war, since India had no desire to appear to violate the Simla Agreement as it would be immoral from the point of view of the sacrosanct principles that bind a Treaty.
It is another matter that Pakistan has no compunction in displaying crass immorality in all spheres of international behaviour; Kargil intrusion being one of the many.
Let us say that Pubby is right for the sake of discussion.
In todayâ€™s context, Arty OPs are but add ons. What they achieve, Drones do it better for observation and directing firepower, and interesting being nowhere near the area of operations and thus impossible to interdict/ deny/ neutralise.
And even if one Drone is downed, there will be others replicating and â€˜ridingâ€™ the actions and command so that there is no time lag to take over and act in case the â€˜commandedâ€™ drone is down.
They took away their Sunni dead when we offered that they take their dead and given them a befitting military burial.
They did not take their Shia dead since Shias a non humans to Sunni Pakistan.
We gave the Shia dead respectable military burials with Shia rites.
Read post #4 again.
Separate names with a comma.