Journalism at its worst - attempts to defame DRDO

[Singh]

Nice to know that you have formally ventured in the "arms business" & have developed "vested interests" that see DRDO as a perennial inconvenience :thumb:

Two can play this game.

Are you translating white papers for DRDO now ?

Never been in favour of DRDO. In fact about 4-5 years back I wrote extensively on how to overhaul Defence PSUs, and I had also argued for joint partnerships of private Indians companies with foreign colloborators.

 

[power_monger]

Like what?

Being patriot is one thing and being pragmatic is another.

Like what? Like what? being senior member of this forum,you know better what DRDO has contributed.

Agni/Arihant/Akash/Prithvi/pinaka/Nirbhay/PDV/AAD/LRTR - List goes on. Keeping a blind eye with biasdness does not help anyone.

 

[power_monger]

Two can play this game.

Are you translating white papers for DRDO now ?

Never been in favour of DRDO. In fact about 4-5 years back I wrote extensively on how to overhaul Defence PSUs, and I had also argued for joint partnerships of private Indians companies with foreign colloborators.

Private Indian companies? - TATA which cant make one single good car without rattles even after so many years of experience? Reliance - Do they own any technology related to refineries either? L & T - Have they introduced any technology related to transportation?

Name one complete system developed in any field by Indian private companies which is path breaking?can you?

 

[power_monger]

And when you compare DRDO with ISRO, you can't but want this white elephant gone.

With Technology blue prints received from Russia,they took 14 years to develop a cryogenic engine. In fact they had 7 cryogenic engine in their disposal for reverse engineering.So much so far a technology which was developed 65 years back by US and Russia.

The whole world followed from a semi-cryogenic engine to fully cryogenic engine. because they researched and came up with product.We were the only ones who did it otherwise round why? So much so for the ISRO which is not even able to match up the technology of 1960's NASA.

 

[Singh]

There are a number of technologies which are not easily available from foreign sources. I hope you know that every weapons sale is a political deal. When somebody sells you something which you cannot make, it always comes with conditions attached. The West typically rushes to supply an item where DRDO is close to success, just to ensure that a local industry is not developed for the item.

Simplistic argument. In fact if "The West" is this bad, then it is all the more imperative for DRDO to enlist support of local companies to reverse engineer/copy that product.

And have you ever dealt with a PSU ?

==

None of the missiles that India has today could have been imported. But missiles are not the only example. Even a simple item like a rifle. You are unhappy with INSAS, you can go for imported one. But you know that you have INSAS as fallback in case the import is blocked.

I don't understand the gist of your argument ?

The fact that Pakistan is operating Chinese nukes makes them less lethal ?
Do you think Indian missiles have no foreign components, assistance ?

 

[power_monger]

and I had also argued for joint partnerships of private Indians companies with foreign colloborators.

yeah like the joint partnership of reliance and dassault systems...

 

[Singh]

Like what? Like what? being senior member of this forum,you know better what DRDO has contributed.

Agni/Arihant/Akash/Prithvi/pinaka/Nirbhay/PDV/AAD/LRTR - List goes on. Keeping a blind eye with biasdness does not help anyone.

He is a retired Brigadier with decades of experience, he knows what DRDO has contributed.

Arihant - L&T is manufacturing it, also made with tons of Russian help iirc.
LRTR - Israeli assistance.
Pinaka - Tata product.
Akash - reverse engineered 1950-60s Russian SAM. Not the best SAM in the world to put it mildly.
Nirbhay - under testing
ICBM/SLBM - under development/not in serial production etc.

 

[power_monger]

He is a retired Brigadier with decades of experience, he knows what DRDO has contributed.
Arihant - L&T is manufacturing it, also made with tons of Russian help iirc.
LRTR - Israeli assistance.
Pinaka - Tata product.
Akash - reverse engineered 1950-60s Russian SAM. Not the best SAM in the world to put it mildly.
Nirbhay - under testing
ICBM/SLBM - under development/not in serial production etc.

Do you know the difference between systems and sub systems?The quality of this post does not even warrant a reply.Will ignore this post.

 

[TrueSpirit1]

Two can play this game.

Are you translating white papers for DRDO now ?

You would be surprised, but I have mostly worked for the likes of Lockheed-Martin, Boeing, BAe, EADS etc. Not for DRDO, though. My engg. batchmates & juniors joined ( & are working) in DPSU's, in droves.

Never been in favour of DRDO. In fact about 4-5 years back I wrote extensively on how to overhaul Defence PSUs, and I had also argued for joint partnerships of private Indians companies with foreign colloborators.

Mediocrity is the hallmark of our governance in public sphere. DRDO alone is not to blame. ISRO is NOT the norm, but an exception & operates in a more comfortable space than DRDO. Why don't we start with our rotten education system, becausing isolating DRDO is not the cure for all defence preparedness-related ills. You would hate me for saying this but our the leadership in our forces (at least few arms of it), are corrupt to the core. They are institutionally rotten. Families of many work exclusively for arms-agents, which is hardly a secret & ACR's (for your eyes only) are routinely shared. They are busy scratching each other's back. But, I won't venture in blame-game.

Given the resources at DRDO's disposal (compared to global standards), the quality of technological pool they have access to (willing to work in India), the quality of research output CSIR labs publish annually & the % of R&D spend in GDP, DRDO's performances has not been downright disappointing.

Systematic overhauls are already in motion in DRDO labs. Better project-management skills, once available in their hierarchy, would percolate down & improve the work-culture (which is like any another public institution, i.e. mediocre.)

 

[Singh]

You would be surprised, but I have mostly worked for the likes of Lockheed-Martin, Boeing, BAe, EADS etc. Not for DRDO, though. My engg. batchmates & juniors joined ( & are working) in DPSU's, in droves.

I am flabbergasted that you have worked for LM, Boeing, BAE, EADS etc. Afaik the companies of a same sector usually don't hire the same content writers, but whatever.

Mediocrity is the hallmark of our governance in public sphere. DRDO alone is not to blame. ISRO is NOT the norm, but an exception & operates in a more comfortable space than DRDO. Why don't we start with our rotten education system, becausing isolating DRDO is not the cure for all defence preparedness-related ills. You would hate me for saying this but our the leadership in our forces (at least few arms of it), are corrupt to the core. They are institutionally rotten. Families of many work exclusively for arms-agents, which is hardly a secret & ACR's (for your eyes only) are routinely shared. They are busy scratching each other's back. But, I won't venture in blame-game.

Given the resources at DRDO's disposal (compared to global standards), the quality of technological pool they have access to (willing to work in India), the quality of research output CSIR labs publish annually & the % of R&D spend in GDP, DRDO's performances has not been downright disappointing.

Systematic overhauls are already in motion in DRDO labs. Better project-management skills, once available in their hierarchy, would percolate down & improve the work-culture (which is like any another public institution, i.e. mediocre.)

That's a scathing indictment if I've ever seen one, and yet you are still defending DRDO ? Surprising.

 

[power_monger]

ISRO is NOT the norm, but an exception & operates in a more comfortable space than DRDO.

Actually ISRO space is far far comfortable to what DRDO is.ISRO area of intrest is pretty much limited to space where there are willing partners to help.Mind you ISRO is yet to reach technology levels of NASA in 1960. DRDO on other hand is literally hundreads of area to focus and with no helping hands. DRDO excels in few and fails in few.What is unfortunate is the failures is highlighted to an extent of barnishing the organisation as failed ones.

 

[Singh]

Do you know the difference between systems and sub systems?The quality of this post does not even warrant a reply.Will ignore this post.

Generally people with superior knowledge are willing to educate the rest. I hope you take mercy on me, and explain to me and many ignorant others on why should I not criticise DRDO rather celebrate it ?

 

[Apollyon]

Karan M (brf member) post on chorGupta's yellow journalism: Bharat Rakshak • View topic - Tracking Errors in Defence reporting

 

[Apollyon]

He is a retired Brigadier with decades of experience, he knows what DRDO has contributed.

Arihant - L&T is manufacturing it, also made with tons of Russian help iirc.
LRTR - Israeli assistance.
Pinaka - Tata product.
Akash - reverse engineered 1950-60s Russian SAM. Not the best SAM in the world to put it mildly.
Nirbhay - under testing
ICBM/SLBM - under development/not in serial production etc.

Air-to-Air Missiles:

Air-to-Air Missile (Medium Range): Astra MkI (under trials), Astra MkII (under-development)

Surface to Air Missiles (SAM):

Quick-Reaction Surface to Air Missile (QR-SAM): under-development.

Short-Range Surface to Air Missile (SR-SAM): Akash MkI (in production, orders worth Rs 23,000 Cr from IA and IAF; more to be ordered in future); in future could see surface to air version of Astra AAM with Active Radar homing (also confirmed by the uncle of dodhwala of a brf member ).

Medium-Range (for Air Force)/Long-Range (for Navy) Surface to Air Missile: Barak-8 (in production), Barak-8 with Booster (to be deployed starting 2016)

Long-Range Surface to Air Missile: under-development

Anti-Ballistic Missiles -

For Ballistic Missiles with Range < 2500Km

AAD - endo-atmospheric interceptor (should be in production)

PDV - exo-atmospheric interceptor (in development trials). Note: India is one of the only select few countries to have carried out an exoatmospheric interception.

Air-to-Surface Missiles:

Anti-Radiation Missile: NGARM (under-development)

Air to Ground short range missile with MMW Seeker 'in development trials' (Brimstone/Hellfire equivalent); could be fired from armed UAV, Helicopters (LCH, Rudra), Fighter Jets (Su-30, Jaguars, Tejas) and Ballistic Missiles (Prithvi).

Air to Ground short range missile with IIR Seeker: HELINA (in user trials)

Surface to Surface Missiles:

Heavy ATGM: Nag (in user trials)

Man-Portable ATGM: SAMHO/CLGM (should be in production); man-portable Nag (under development)

Guided Rockets: Pinaka-2 (in user trials), Indian version of BM-30 Smerch (under-development)

Short Range Ballistic Missile: Prahaar/Pragati (will be ordered soon)

Long Range Cruise Missile (Sub-Sonic): Nirbhay (in development trials)

Long Range Cruise Missile (Supersonic-Sonic): LRCM (classified, not much known)

Cruise Missile (Supersonic-Sonic): Brahmos; Brahmos-M (under-development)

Cruise Missile (Hyper-Sonic): Brahmos-2 (under-development)

Edit: For more info read these articles (and other from the same author)

Saurav Jha's Blog : Interview with Dr Avinash Chander, DRDO Chief and Scientific Adviser to Defence Minister

Saurav Jha's Blog : Interview with the Chief of DRDO, Avinash Chander -Part II

Saurav Jha's Blog : Some notes on DRDO's PDV ballistic missile defence interceptor

Saurav Jha's Blog : Seeking the future: An interview with Dr G Satheesh Reddy, Director Research Centre Imarat

Then there are Heavy and Light weight Torpedoes, Hull mounted Sonars, Towed Sonars, ECM/ESM for ships, AEW&C, Radars, Armour, C4I system ...etc., etc.,

and finally -
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[tweet]34927634832977921[/tweet]

PS: I recommend you to read DRDO techfocus to keep up with DRDO's capability: http://drdo.res.in:8080/alpha/drdo/pub/techfocus/tech_focus.htm

PS:

Akash - reverse engineered 1950-60s Russian SAM. Not the best SAM in the world to put it mildly.

This shows why you're ignorant (or choose to be?). Akash was never meant to a high end system. You don't want a million $ missile to take down a $50k PGM ...would you?

INTEGRAL RAM ROCKET (IRR) PROPULSION SYSTEMS

Fuel-efficient air breathing propulsion system was developed exclusively for Project Akash. IRR propulsion system provides powered range right up to target intercept enabling high maneuverability and tail chase capability unlike solid rockets.

Following subsystems were developed ab initio for realizing IRR propulsion system.

Light weight, high pressure rocket motors using indigenous maraging steel, an indigenous high strength alloy steel.
Secondary chamber liner / thermal protection system using carbon phenolic fiber.
Composite propellant booster grain in free standing configuration.
A special grain with variable burn rates was developed and productionised at OF, Itarsi which is also specific to Akash & application.
Air intakes and caps are designed for ramjet application.

The IRR propulsion system is first in the country & it has potential application for long range air launched missile systems for air-to-air and air-to ground role. Not many countries have worked in the complex area of ramjet propulsion.

DRDO

 

[TrueSpirit1]

I am flabbergasted that you have worked for LM, Boeing, BAE, EADS etc. Afaik the companies of a same sector usually don't hire the same content writers, but whatever.

Not a content writer, Technical Architect. The names I mentioned, all crave for domain specialization. So much so, that LM even wants to acquire one division of my company's business (because of my company's deep & established links with Federal/Military accounts in US & EU), but the proposal was a non-starter due higher askance price/share. It is all over the media, anyway. Regarding the work, I do not have much to choose from, as around 60% of my company's clients are arms-manufacturers/federal govt. accounts. So, my projects are invariable from federal or sometimes, healthcare/pharma domain.

That's a scathing indictment if I've ever seen one, and yet you are still defending DRDO ? Surprising.

All I am saying is the rest of our institutions are no better than DRDO.

 

[Singh]

Not a content writer, Technical Architect. The names I mentioned, all crave for domain specialization. So much so, that LM even wants to acquire one division of my company's business (because of my company's deep & established links with Federal/Military accounts in US & EU), but the proposal was a non-starter due higher askance price/share. It is all over the media, anyway. Regarding the work, I do not have much to choose from, as around 60% of my company's clients are arms-manufacturers/federal govt. accounts. So, my projects are invariable from federal or sometimes, healthcare/pharma domain.

I will take your word for this. Which company is this if you don't mind me asking ?

All I am saying is the rest of our institutions are no better than DRDO.

Well then I shall criticise them too. No point in not criticising mediocrity.

Although your point about them being "Arms Agent" is a little incorrect, they are also "Import Agents" if you get the hint .

 

[Singh]

@Apollyon
Dk the chu , when these missiles are inducted then I will treat you to your first decent beer.

 

[Singh]

Actually ISRO space is far far comfortable to what DRDO is.ISRO area of intrest is pretty much limited to space where there are willing partners to help.Mind you ISRO is yet to reach technology levels of NASA in 1960. DRDO on other hand is literally hundreads of area to focus and with no helping hands. DRDO excels in few and fails in few.What is unfortunate is the failures is highlighted to an extent of barnishing the organisation as failed ones.

DRDO is responsible for the protection and security of India and its 1.2 billion inhabitants. You don't go to a war with excuses, you goto a war with weapons.

For this there are no excuses.

Instead of focussing on a 100 different things, and failing and then having to import from abroad, it would've be better and cheaper if DRDO concentrated on essentials and we imported non-essentials from the very start.

 

[charlie]

I think our Research agency are far more better then our Production PSU's, most of the time it's defective product that our military is not happy with. I know one company for sure which is rotten to it's root "BHEL"

 

[sgarg]

Simplistic argument. In fact if "The West" is this bad, then it is all the more imperative for DRDO to enlist support of local companies to reverse engineer/copy that product.

And have you ever dealt with a PSU ?

==



I don't understand the gist of your argument ?

The fact that Pakistan is operating Chinese nukes makes them less lethal ?
Do you think Indian missiles have no foreign components, assistance ?

I have dealt with PSUs and also worked there.
The services look at everything with fogged glasses. Services have no real idea of ground realities.
There is no security if foreign policy is hostage to supplier countries. The first rule of security is self-sufficiency.

PSUs have squandered away nation's wealth. This is a fact. The constant labour problems, no incentives for innovation, and no vision have pushed Indian defence manufacturing into the ground.

HAL is no different from other PSUs. HAL suffers from poor productivity and quality issues.

When the government has come up with plan to buy from private companies, services are making up weird reasons. It is funny to see services who vehemently complained about quality of DPSU and OFB now taking their side.