Joint development of Ship Propulsion system with Russia

[nirranj]

We are hearing news that Russia is pushing for selling the three sanction hit admiral Grigorovich class frigates. Russians cannot afford to pump money into these ships that will be mothballed for at least 5 years until Russia can develop an alternative gas turbine propulsion plant for its conventionally powered ships.

I think this is an excellent opportunity for India to join Russia in developing a marine Propulsion system that can be used in our future ships.

For example we too rely on imported Propulsion systems from Ukraine and other countries. Our Kolkata class ships use the Ukrainian zorya COGAG Propulsion system. Shivalik class uses the GE LM2500. The Kamortas use French systems. The ships under construction and in design boards too rely on imported Propulsion systems.

Now as Russia is already stretched financially by sanctions, multi front combats and low oil prices, I think it's time India to step in and invest money and join the development of Propulsion systems. Just like we did with Brahmos and are doing in MMTA and FGFA aircrafts.

http://www.janes.com/article/55284/...nction-hit-admiral-grigorovich-class-frigates

http://m.economictimes.com/news/def...ates-for-indian-navy/articleshow/48091024.cms

What do you say brothers?

 

[Rowdy]

We are hearing news that Russia is pushing for selling the three sanction hit admiral Grigorovich class frigates. Russians cannot afford to pump money into these ships that will be mothballed for at least 5 years until Russia can develop an alternative gas turbine propulsion plant for its conventionally powered ships.

I think this is an excellent opportunity for India to join Russia in developing a marine Propulsion system that can be used in our future ships.

For example we too rely on imported Propulsion systems from Ukraine and other countries. Our Kolkata class ships use the Ukrainian zorya COGAG Propulsion system. Shivalik class uses the GE LM2500. The Kamortas use French systems. The ships under construction and in design boards too rely on imported Propulsion systems.

Now as Russia is already stretched financially by sanctions, multi front combats and low oil prices, I think it's time India to step in and invest money and join the development of Propulsion systems. Just like we did with Brahmos and are doing in MMTA and FGFA aircrafts.

http://www.janes.com/article/55284/...nction-hit-admiral-grigorovich-class-frigates

http://m.economictimes.com/news/def...ates-for-indian-navy/articleshow/48091024.cms

What do you say brothers?

I like the Idea............ ..............................

 

[Srinivas_K]

It is a good idea, But investing and getting tech help from Ukraine is also a better option.

 

[nirranj]

It is a good idea, But investing and getting tech help from Ukraine is also a better option.

It will be a better option too! Anyways Ukrainians are stretched to their limits!

But Russia can be a better partner as we can jointly develop ships with them. They are able to squeeze in more punching options even in smaller ships. Like the Buyan. And traditionally we are a bit closer to the Russians.

With Ukraine's accession to Euro being imminent, I think their marine industry and aircraft industry will get merged with the existing European joint stock corporations. That situation will not be in our favor.

 

[Kyubi]

It will be a better option too! Anyways Ukrainians are stretched to their limits!

But Russia can be a better partner as we can jointly develop ships with them. They are able to squeeze in more punching options even in smaller ships. Like the Buyan. And traditionally we are a bit closer to the Russians.

With Ukraine's accession to Euro being imminent, I think their marine industry and aircraft industry will get merged with the existing European joint stock corporations. That situation will not be in our favor.

The problem with joint development with russians is that they like to overplay there hand, its not like they have no clue about developing a marine spec gas turbine, but lack of funds is what is preventing them, and India being magnanimous funds it. here lies the problem, A clear definition on work sharing, technology etc needs to be laid out first. Brahmos might have a success, but FGFA isn't

 

[pmaitra]

It is a good idea, But investing and getting tech help from Ukraine is also a better option.

With Ukraine's accession to Euro being imminent, I think their marine industry and aircraft industry will get merged with the existing European joint stock corporations. That situation will not be in our favor.

Given Ukraine's situation, I wonder what condition Ukraine's marine industry is in.

 

[anoop_mig25]

We are hearing news that Russia is pushing for selling the three sanction hit admiral Grigorovich class frigates. Russians cannot afford to pump money into these ships that will be mothballed for at least 5 years until Russia can develop an alternative gas turbine propulsion plant for its conventionally powered ships.

I think this is an excellent opportunity for India to join Russia in developing a marine Propulsion system that can be used in our future ships.

For example we too rely on imported Propulsion systems from Ukraine and other countries. Our Kolkata class ships use the Ukrainian zorya COGAG Propulsion system. Shivalik class uses the GE LM2500. The Kamortas use French systems. The ships under construction and in design boards too rely on imported Propulsion systems.

Now as Russia is already stretched financially by sanctions, multi front combats and low oil prices, I think it's time India to step in and invest money and join the development of Propulsion systems. Just like we did with Brahmos and are doing in MMTA and FGFA aircrafts.

http://www.janes.com/article/55284/...nction-hit-admiral-grigorovich-class-frigates

http://m.economictimes.com/news/def...ates-for-indian-navy/articleshow/48091024.cms

What do you say brothers?

Will if news is true and if russians are facing economic crunch they hire there engineers/scientist instead of co-developing with them.I donot think russians are going to share their technology easily with us.PAK-50 shows us how much russians are relcultant to co-develop with us any thing

 

[NLD]

The problem with joint development with russians is that they like to overplay there hand, its not like they have no clue about developing a marine spec gas turbine, but lack of funds is what is preventing them, and India being magnanimous funds it. here lies the problem, A clear definition on work sharing, technology etc needs to be laid out first. Brahmos might have a success, but FGFA isn't

Will if news is true and if russians are facing economic crunch they hire there engineers/scientist instead of co-developing with them.I donot think russians are going to share their technology easily with us.PAK-50 shows us how much russians are relcultant to co-develop with us any thing

Well i dont think so…
IAF and IN have many difference in them. IN has passed the hurdle of building its own ships unlike IAF, IN know what all are the situation that may or will appear. So i think we cannot mixup the pakfa and this program. Its true IN doesnt know even a little bit about how to build an engine but has an experience and knows the meaning of what designing and constructing on our own means. So going into it is a good deal according to me and i think their will be no problem unlike pak fa/fgfa program.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

From what I hear Russians have problem with metallurgy and control (loop) electronics.
Also their are attempts by private players India to develop a marine-time engine in collaboration/technical consultancy from European companies.
Lets see how it goes with Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine (KMGT) program goes.
For now we should stay away from Russians.
Dealing with Ukrainians will be easier now.

 

[Srinivas_K]

Given Ukraine's situation, I wonder what condition Ukraine's marine industry is in.

which is the correct time to go and invest and get technology from Ukraine.

 

[charlie]

From what I hear Russians have problem with metallurgy and control (loop) electronics.
Also their are attempts by private players India to develop a marine-time engine in collaboration/technical consultancy from European companies.
Lets see how it goes with Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine (KMGT) program goes.
For now we should stay away from Russians.
Dealing with Ukrainians will be easier now.

I heard the complete opposite of what you are saying, I heard Russian are really good in Metallurgy even better then Americans in most of the cases. I don't know anything about Control loops electronics, so can't really comment on that.

Dealing with Ukrainians definitely not easy as of now for Indians, but don't know about the future, in Russia you can get things done if you know the right people so it is easy at-least for Indians.

 

[pmaitra]

which is the correct time to go and invest and get technology from Ukraine.

I wouldn't invest in Ukraine. Buying advanced machines might be useful. I am interested to know what technology Ukraine can offer. From what I have seen, even the trucks they are making are worse than what they used to make in the Soviet times.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

I heard the complete opposite of what you are saying, I heard Russian are really good in Metallurgy even better then Americans in most of the cases.

That particularly was true during cold war that also for particular type of steel for certain however things have changed much. Russia imports specialized steel from Germany and Luxembourg. Russians also tend to have problem in super strength alloys.

I don't know anything about Control loops electronics, so can't really comment on that.

Critical control loop electronics are imported form German companies like Siemens, Berghof, etc. or Swedish companies like ABB. Non-critical electronic development been outsourced to German companies. Just like in India there are lot of small IT companies similarly in Germany their are lots of small companies who do this kind of outsourced work (IT, electronics, semiconductor, mechanical, automotive).

Dealing with Ukrainians definitely not easy as of now for Indians, but don't know about the future, in Russia you can get things done if you know the right people so it is easy at-least for Indians.

Problem with Russian is not getting work done but their greedy and brinkmanship mentality asking more Money or threatening otherwise.

 

[pmaitra]

That particularly was true during cold war that also for particular type of steel for certain however things have changed much. Russia imports specialized steel from Germany and Luxembourg. Russians also tend to have problem in super strength alloys.

Critical control loop electronics are imported form German companies like Siemens, Berghof, etc. or Swedish companies like ABB. Non-critical electronic development been outsourced to German companies. Just like in India there are lot of small IT companies similarly in Germany their are lots of small companies who do this kind of outsourced work (IT, electronics, semiconductor, mechanical, automotive).
Problem with Russian is not getting work done but their greedy and brinkmanship mentality asking more Money or threatening otherwise.

There must be a reason why Soviet made MiG-21 has a robust reputation while the Indian made ones are known as "Flying Coffins."

There must be a reason why Russia exports specialized Lithium alloy based propulsion fuel tanks to the United States which can be used in space landers because Russia has the best technology in building super strength and super light alloys.

There has to be a reason why Boeing has a massive facility right next to one time, and probably even today, the largest Titanium facility in the world, in Sverdlovsk region of Russia. I suppose the import happens in a direction one would not expect.

There has to be a reason why Russian helicopters have gone on the record to take direct RPG hits and still survive.

There has to be a reason why Russia managed to build the world largest swing-wing aircraft.

There has to be a reason why Mercedes-Benz and Maschinenfabrik Augsburg-Nürnberg, two major German truck makers, at any time point between 1945 (when WW2 ended) till now, have not been able to match Russian off-road trucks and prime movers.

Let us see how the automobile braggart Germany compares with Russia. There is a link of the Dakar rally below. How does Germany's performance compare with that of Russia?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakar_Rally

Must be their "greedy and brinkmanship mentality," right?

 

[charlie]

That particularly was true during cold war that also for particular type of steel for certain however things have changed much. Russia imports specialized steel from Germany and Luxembourg. Russians also tend to have problem in super strength alloys.

Critical control loop electronics are imported form German companies like Siemens, Berghof, etc. or Swedish companies like ABB. Non-critical electronic development been outsourced to German companies. Just like in India there are lot of small IT companies similarly in Germany their are lots of small companies who do this kind of outsourced work (IT, electronics, semiconductor, mechanical, automotive).
Problem with Russian is not getting work done but their greedy and brinkmanship mentality asking more Money or threatening otherwise.

My Father-in-law's brother is a Metallurgy Engineer, he is now retired but some times he works for some companies that hire him to finds special alloys or some kind of special metal from Industrial machinery that was being used in soviet times and he also worked in US as some kind of consultant around 2006.

I just met him once and we had a short conversation and he was telling me that US is still lagging behind as far as metallurgy is concerned, he named some kind of an metal or alloy number I don't remember and he was taking about some kind of an metal they use in missile and rocket engine.

"Problem with Russian is not getting work done but their greedy and brinkmanship mentality asking more Money or threatening otherwise."

I don't know if you really did business with Russians or had a bad experience, I can say it from my experience as my uncle has being doing business and I met few people in Moscow itself from India (Ex Indian Army personal to be specific) who gave me some what positive review.

I work for American Defence firm, so don't even compare them with Russian PSU's when it comes to greedy mentality.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

There must be a reason why Soviet made MiG-21 has a robust reputation while the Indian made ones are known as "Flying Coffins."

And when was MiG-21 developed???

There must be a reason why Russia exports specialized Lithium alloy based propulsion fuel tanks to the United States which can be used in space landers because Russia has the best technology in building super strength and super light alloys.

Actually western Constellium and Alcoa Inc. mine the materials in Russia, reprocess them and sell them in western markets. This doesn't means Russians have superior metallurgy.

There has to be a reason why Boeing has a massive facility right next to one time, and probably even today, the largest Titanium facility in the world, in Sverdlovsk region of Russia. I suppose the import happens in a direction one would not expect.

What that has to do with advancement in metallurgy??? Boeing set up a plant because of the mine and not the metallurgy. I hope you get the difference.
Final machining and processing of the forgings will be completed by Boeing's Portland, Ore., fabrication facility and other machining subcontractors.

There has to be a reason why Russian helicopters have gone on the record to take direct RPG hits and still survive.

Total BS. RPG-7 was the first effective countermeasure to the Hind in Afghanistan. Russian helicopter survival was because of its heavy skin. Lets not forget the stingers. Just look at their fuel economy and weight.

There has to be a reason why Russia managed to build the world largest swing-wing aircraft.

So. What has that to do with building an maritime engine.

There has to be a reason why Mercedes-Benz and Maschinenfabrik Augsburg-Nürnberg, two major German truck makers, at any time point between 1945 (when WW2 ended) till now, have not been able to match Russian off-road trucks and prime movers.

Let us see how the automobile braggart Germany compares with Russia. There is a link of the Dakar rally below. How does Germany's performance compare with that of Russia?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakar_Rally

Most stupid point even for pro-Russian propaganda individual. Are we talking about highly specialized metallurgy with respect to martime-engine development or trucks???

Must be their "greedy and brinkmanship mentality," right?

Remember INS Vikramaditya saga?

 

[Dark Sorrow]

My Father-in-law's brother is a Metallurgy Engineer, he is now retired but some times he works for some companies that hire him to finds special alloys or some kind of special metal from Industrial machinery that was being used in soviet times and he also worked in US as some kind of consultant around 2006.

If you read my post carefully I said soviet metallurgy was advance but that was 25 years back. Russian metallurgy is not as advanced as Soviet metallurgy was.

I just met him once and we had a short conversation and he was telling me that US is still lagging behind as far as metallurgy is concerned, he named some kind of an metal or alloy number I don't remember and he was taking about some kind of an metal they use in missile and rocket engine.

I never made any comparison between US and Russian metallurgy instead I have quoted about German metallurgy.
Soviets had advantages with some alloys and American had advantage in some.

"Problem with Russian is not getting work done but their greedy and brinkmanship mentality asking more Money or threatening otherwise."

I don't know if you really did business with Russians or had a bad experience, I can say it from my experience as my uncle has being doing business and I met few people in Moscow itself from India (Ex Indian Army personal to be specific) who gave me some what positive review.

Indian army person are not really best source for customer service review. Russian have screwed us on many matters. ToT for T-90 gun barrel, ammunition, armor plating, INS Vikramaditya, FGFA, etc., etc. etc.

I work for American Defence firm, so don't even compare them with Russian PSU's when it comes to greedy mentality.

Again there was no compassion being made American Defense firm with Russian PSU. I just highlighted Russians are being greedy now days!!! No comparison to American was made.

 

[pmaitra]

And when was MiG-21 developed???

The discussion was about metallurgy, specifically Tumansky R-25 engine, which was built in the USSR and also in India. I was pointing out the difference in metallurgy between the two turbines.

Actually western Constellium and Alcoa Inc. mine the materials in Russia, reprocess them and sell them in western markets. This doesn't means Russians have superior metallurgy.

It was a US interplanetary lander project in which various universities and companies competed. The Lithium was mined in Russia. The ore was refined in Russia. The alloy was made in Russia. The final product, the fuel tank, was fabricated in Russia.

What that has to do with advancement in metallurgy??? Boeing set up a plant because of the mine and not the metallurgy. I hope you get the difference.

Sverdlovsk not only had the mines, but also the Titanium refining plant in Sverdlovsk, long before Boeing came in.

Final machining and processing of the forgings will be completed by Boeing's Portland, Ore., fabrication facility and other machining subcontractors.

Boeing facility is not only limited to the mines, but also R&D, where they hire Russian metallurgists, educated in Russian universities.

Total BS. RPG-7 was the first effective countermeasure to the Hind in Afghanistan. Russian helicopter survival was because of its heavy skin. Lets not forget the stingers. Just look at their fuel economy and weight.

RPG-7 and Stinger had very limited success against the Hind. Fuel economy is not the issue here. Metallurgy is.

So. What has that to do with building an maritime engine.

It has everything to do with metallurgy. Go back and read what you have written.

Most stupid point even for pro-Russian propaganda individual.

Yup, you start talking about metallurgy and then start talking about "greed" and "brinkmanship." It is clear where the stupidity is coming from. Love it when you cannot go after the message and have to go after the messenger.

Are we talking about highly specialized metallurgy with respect to martime-engine development or trucks???

Are you talking about "martime-engine development" or "brinkmanship?"

Most of the things you have written in this conversation is unmitigated drivel. I am countering your assertion that Russia has to import advanced alloys from Europe. If that is the case. why can't the Europeans build better off-road vehicles? Metallurgy is needed for chassis, undercarriage, suspension.

Remember INS Vikramaditya saga?

Yeah, I remember it. Russia offered to refund the initial payment when the first cost escalation happened. India wanted the ship, knowing well that if India didn't buy it, PRC would.

 

[pmaitra]

Again there was no compassion being made American Defense firm with Russian PSU. I just highlighted Russians are being greedy now days!!! No comparison to American was made.

You made no comparison to US defence companies. You just claimed Russian PSUs are being greedy. Now prove it. If you want to prove it, you will have to compare Russia with some other country. The natural choice is the US.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

The problem with joint development with russians is that they like to overplay there hand, its not like they have no clue about developing a marine spec gas turbine, but lack of funds is what is preventing them, and India being magnanimous funds it. here lies the problem, A clear definition on work sharing, technology etc needs to be laid out first. Brahmos might have a success, but FGFA isn't

How is brahmos a completed deal ? Tot has not been given to India.