J20 Stealth Fighter

[Agantrope]

That's the point. India currently possess weapons of similar quality as the ones fielded by China. India used to hold a substantial edge in terms of quality over China in the conventional weapons's department, but all that has now evaporated. China on the other hand still holds advantage in numbers, and more importantly China is nearly 100% self-reliant.

Our real concern is the russian weapons and on the other we are not worried about the chinese weapons, instead we are happy that you people are cutting the order and making some inferior quality goodies and also selling it to our neighbours.

 

[IBRIS]

That's the point. India currently possess weapons of similar quality as the ones fielded by China.

Our weapons platform maybe the same or somewhat similar, but in term of sophistication, Advanced Avionics and Radar systems are substantially for more modern than chinese. Chinese third grade copy, pasted weapons are nothing but a hyped up garbage.

India used to hold a substantial edge in terms of quality

China on the other hand still holds advantage in numbers, and more importantly China is nearly 100% self-reliant.

At the Indo-China border you cannot bring your goodies in treacherous terrain that leaves china to only use ballistic missiles or hilli-bound foot crawlers to eventually face the Indians on foot. China is at huge disadvantage with all it's rolling machinery unable to reach to the border.

P.S: You should look at the map and terrain before giving your personal opinion on the Indo-Tibetan Border plans.

 

[Vladimir79]

Just about the whole range of Chinese tech is based on clones of late 70s early 80s Soviet and Western models. To say China can skip from being 25-30 years behind to the latest fighter in one try is quite absurd. To say China is beyond Russia is outrageous. Russia has yet to give China technology that is post CCCP, for the obvious reason of IP theft. Combine that with the Tienanmen embargo and closure of Israeli exports, China has screwed herself out of all sources of advanced technology. Perfect example of how bad it is for China is the need to import old UKRAINIAN technology. We know J-XX will be "modified J-10", so J-XX is in fact J-10B and in no way is it 5th generation or any match for PAK FA. If China is lucky it will be analog to a modern F-16, not an early block like the current J-10.

 

[redragon]

this might be off topic
A lot respectable members here made conclusion that Vayag can never move again because of this and that, but I found that recently more and more evidences showing Vayag is right on track to enter service in the coming 2-3 years, for example: China coyied su-33, test the engine on Vayag and now fitting in Radar and Chinese copy of Ram. And guess what, the Chinese government never mentioned anything regarding all these. On the other hand, Indian government has much better transparency, it broadcast any progress on those military projects world wide.
So, here I bet Mr Vladimir is wrong on "We know J-XX will be "modified J-10", so J-XX is in fact J-10B", and we can see the result in no too long time, please be patience.
P.S
Badguy, I really appreciate when you post real pictures to support your claim on Chinese high speed train, hopefully you do the same thing for other chinese project, let's not to exagerate the progress, wait till you see a real picture.

 

[Shaitan]

J10 as it stands now compares favourably with anything IAF has except for for Su30 MKI.

What about the MIG 29s? All MiG-29s will be upgraded to MiG-29SMT level with latest avionics, engine, Zhuk-ME radar, weapon control systems by 2013. And also the MIG 29Ks that are coming.

:special16::special10:

 

[Vladimir79]

A lot respectable members here made conclusion that Vayag can never move again because of this and that, but I found that recently more and more evidences showing Vayag is right on track to enter service in the coming 2-3 years

Varyag was a rusted empty hulk when China bought it; no boilers, no engines, no electrical fittings, deteriorated bulkheads which is why it was planned for the scrap yard. To make her operational, she will have to be put in dry dock for years, total rewiring, set of boilers and engines cut into the hull, reinforced bulkheads, replace any deteriorated sections of the hull. It is a total disaster area that makes Gorshkov's restoration a piece of cake. China doesn't make the engines needed to run it nor has it been cut open to place anything they could get from Ukraine. It was only in dry dock for 9 months before they towed her back to pier side, isn't enough time to do anything but clean off the barnacles.

for example: China coyied su-33, test the engine on Vayag and now fitting in Radar and Chinese copy of Ram. And guess what, the Chinese government never mentioned anything regarding all these. On the other hand, Indian government has much better transparency, it broadcast any progress on those military projects world wide.
So, here I bet Mr Vladimir is wrong on "We know J-XX will be "modified J-10", so J-XX is in fact J-10B", and we can see the result in no too long time, please be patience.

You mean that picture of the Su-30MK with canards? That isn't a copy of a carrier borne aircraft but a serving fighter with PLAN. We know J-XX will be a modified copy of J-10 because PLAAF says it will. Or maybe you can't read Chinese??

Air Force department heads: "4th generation machine" means a modified J -10 series aircraft

http://chn.chinamil.com.cn/xwpdxw/2009-11/23/content_4084111.htm

 

[badguy2000]

Our weapons platform maybe the same or somewhat similar, but in term of sophistication, Advanced Avionics and Radar systems are substantially for more modern than chinese. Chinese third grade copy, pasted weapons are nothing but a hyped up garbage.



At the Indo-China border you cannot bring your goodies in treacherous terrain that leaves china to only use ballistic missiles or hilli-bound foot crawlers to eventually face the Indians on foot. China is at huge disadvantage with all it's rolling machinery unable to reach to the border.

P.S: You should look at the map and terrain before giving your personal opinion on the Indo-Tibetan Border plans.

just on the contary, Chinese avionics and radars are better than Russia's,because CHinese electronics industry base now is far consolidated than Russia's.

What Russia's is better than China is absolutely not avionics and eletronics,but airdynamic and engine.

 

[badguy2000]

this might be off topic
A lot respectable members here made conclusion that Vayag can never move again because of this and that, but I found that recently more and more evidences showing Vayag is right on track to enter service in the coming 2-3 years, for example: China coyied su-33, test the engine on Vayag and now fitting in Radar and Chinese copy of Ram. And guess what, the Chinese government never mentioned anything regarding all these. On the other hand, Indian government has much better transparency, it broadcast any progress on those military projects world wide.
So, here I bet Mr Vladimir is wrong on "We know J-XX will be "modified J-10", so J-XX is in fact J-10B", and we can see the result in no too long time, please be patience.
P.S
Badguy, I really appreciate when you post real pictures to support your claim on Chinese high speed train, hopefully you do the same thing for other chinese project, let's not to exagerate the progress, wait till you see a real picture.

well, those really pictures are usually not what many of Indians here like facing.

 

[Agantrope]

just on the contary, Chinese avionics and radars are better than Russia's,because CHinese electronics industry base now is far consolidated than Russia's.

What Russia's is better than China is absolutely not avionics and eletronics,but airdynamic and engine.

FYI, India uses most of the French, Israel and Indian avionics, a very little of the Russian ones. So, still india has a edge over the avionics which is the heart of the modern warfare.

On the other hand Chinese tried to reverse the Phalcon but failed miserably and they got the KLJ (dont remember the name). Better try to stop reversing and can burn some money in the R&D to make some quality items.

 

[Ray]

'putting cart before the donkey' is an old english phase, thought you guys are better than us in english, i'm really dissappointed

I am sure you made the error because of your lack of grasp over the English Language. You could be forgiven for that since there is no doubt that you all are rather handicapped in this area of expertise.

The actual saying is putting the cart before the horse.

Therefore, I find it amusing that you should be observing donkeys wherever you see.

In England, donkeys did not pull carts. Horses did. Hence, the saying is of horse and not donkey. But then, those who see donkeys everywhere and hardly any horse as beasts of burden, can obviously make the mistake.

As regards our PM, Manmohan, he is done a good job so much so that by pursuing Narishimha Rao's 'Look East' Policy, he has spooked Wen and China so much so that the latter is alarmed and the former coming hotfoot to India to iron out the recent dadagiris, committed by China.

The chicken are coming home to roost as they say in English!

 

[badguy2000]

FYI, India uses most of the French, Israel and Indian avionics, a very little of the Russian ones. So, still india has a edge over the avionics which is the heart of the modern warfare.

On the other hand Chinese tried to reverse the Phalcon but failed miserably and they got the KLJ (dont remember the name). Better try to stop reversing and can burn some money in the R&D to make some quality items.

you had better fix your indigenous AWAC and satellite navigation system first ,then talk loudly. otherwise it is just another "putting the cart before the donkey".

 

[Vladimir79]

just on the contary, Chinese avionics and radars are better than Russia's,because CHinese electronics industry base now is far consolidated than Russia's.

What Russia's is better than China is absolutely not avionics and eletronics,but airdynamic and engine.

Russian electronics are COTS, mostly from Taiwan and S. Korea integrated the way we need them into our more advanced systems. So no, Chinese avionics are not better than Russian when we have better software engineers and labs that can integrate that technology into weapons grade application. Our mechanical, software and radar engineering are far superior to what China can provide.

 

[SHASH2K2]

you had better fix your indigenous AWAC and satellite navigation system first ,then talk loudly. otherwise it is just another "putting the cart before the donkey".

I think you are not aware that we are first country to get military grade signal from Glonass. so forget about our Satellite navigation systems we have better than yours. Regarding Awacs its waiting for delivery of planes and sub systems are ready .

 

[pmaitra]

you had better fix your indigenous AWAC and satellite navigation system first ,then talk loudly. otherwise it is just another "putting the cart before the donkey".

True, we have to gain capability in developing many thing indigenously, but we have developed many things indigenously already, haven't we? Don't you think PRC needs to first develop at least one thing indigenously without copying, pirating and reverse engineering from others, before sermonising others loudly?

just on the contary, Chinese avionics and radars are better than Russia's,because CHinese electronics industry base now is far consolidated than Russia's.

What Russia's is better than China is absolutely not avionics and eletronics,but airdynamic and engine.

Really? Could you provide some references please? I know Chinese companies mass produce laptops and cell phones. However, a RADAR is a different ball game. I was under the impression that all the Chinese Electronics Industry, and the consolidation thereof, is by virtue of US companies setting up manufacturing plants in PRC for commercial products. I really doubt China has made some enviable progress in defense related electronics.

I could be wrong, but you have to convince me with some references.

 

[pmaitra]

Russian electronics are COTS, mostly from Taiwan and S. Korea integrated the way we need them into our more advanced systems. So no, Chinese avionics are not better than Russian when we have better software engineers and labs that can integrate that technology into weapons grade application. Our mechanical, software and radar engineering are far superior to what China can provide.

That is quite true. The kind of software that is being developed only in the city of Novosibirsk itself is mind boggling. It will be off topic because I know only of non-military projects, but PRC is in no way ahead of Russia in electronics and software when it comes to defense.

 

[Ray]

you had better fix your indigenous AWAC and satellite navigation system first ,then talk loudly. otherwise it is just another "putting the cart before the donkey".

May I enlighten you that is it 'putting the cart before the horse'.

Am I to understand that because possibly there is a surfeit of donkeys in China, that this error is repeatedly being made.

As far as Chinese avionics is the best, so long as you are satisfied, it is OK for China even if others feel it otherwise.

To use another English saying - the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Note: Pudding and not Noodles and since English is not a Chinese discovery or invention, it would do well to do in Rome as the Romans do!

 

[badguy2000]

True, we have to gain capability in developing many thing indigenously, but we have developed many things indigenously already, haven't we? Don't you think PRC needs to first develop at least one thing indigenously without copying, pirating and reverse engineering from others, before sermonising others loudly?



Really? Could you provide some references please? I know Chinese companies mass produce laptops and cell phones. However, a RADAR is a different ball game. I was under the impression that all the Chinese Electronics Industry, and the consolidation thereof, is by virtue of US companies setting up manufacturing plants in PRC for commercial products. I really doubt China has made some enviable progress in defense related electronics.

I could be wrong, but you have to convince me with some references.

haha. electronic industry is the base the military-related electronics.
it is not occasional that global fastest supercomputer once was made in Japan and USA and now is made in CHina.

Soviet selected electron tube ,instead of integrated circuit,when electronic industry revolution took place in 1960s-1970s.
So,from the start, the electronics industry of Soviet/Russia missed the chance and is doomed to be out of the race.

 

[Ray]

Just to help people on the way to horse sense and forgive me for this off topic diversion.

English Horse Quotes:

* "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride."
- English Proverb

* "A horse hired, never tired."
-English Proverb

* " A horse made and a wife to make."
-English Proverb

* "A horse may stumble though he have four legs."
-English Proverb

* "Better ride on ass that carries me, than on a horse that throws me."
-English Proverb

* "For want of a nail the shoe is lost, for want of a shoe the horse is lost, for want of a horse the rider is lost."
-English Proverb

* "Gamesters and race-horses never last long."
-English Proverb

Now, a Chinese proverb that says what is OK for the Horse is not OK for the donkey:

"Donkey's lips do not fit onto a horse's mouth."
-Chinese Proverb

 

[SHASH2K2]

haha. electronic industry is the base the military-related electronics.
it is not occasional that global fastest supercomputer once was made in Japan and USA and now is made in CHina.

BG there is a lot of diffrence between building something from scratch and assembling various components .of that super computer how many components are made in China? may be racks where they are assembled and display and input devices but all processing units will be imported .

just to let you know that military grade electronics has to work under extreme conditions and hence are diffident from civilian ones.

 

[badguy2000]

BG there is a lot of diffrence between building something from scratch and assembling various components .of that super computer how many components are made in China? may be racks where they are assembled and display and input devices but all processing units will be imported .

just to let you know that military grade electronics has to work under extreme conditions and hence are diffident from civilian ones.

the core tech of supercomputer is never the chips,but "intercom" between chips.
besides, quite a part chips of the supercomputers are indigenous CHips.

BTW, CHinese can design and produce most chips,but because their costperformance is not as good as Intell and AMD,Intel and AMD can occupy the civilian market.

However,miliatry industry is another case. reliablity is a much important consideration than costperformance,so Chinese indigiou chips are widely used by PLA.