J20 Stealth Fighter

[Armand2REP]

Is that really an update?

China continues to purchase military aircraft engines in Russia
October 25, 2016 00:27

• Alexey Nikolsky
  
• / Vedomosti

Between Rosoboronexport and the Chinese side, new contracts were recently concluded for the delivery of Russian aircraft engines AL-31 and D-30 to China, a man close to Rosoboronexport and a manager of an aviation industry enterprise told Vedomosti. We are talking about three-year contracts for the supply of about a hundred engines of each type, the manager specified. The cost of such a number of engines can be about $ 1 billion, says Deputy Director of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies Konstantin Makienko. The cost of only one engine of the AL-31 type is likely to have already exceeded $ 5 million per unit, the cost of the D-30 is unlikely to be less, believes Makienko. The official representative of Rosoboronexport declined to comment.

D-30 engines have been purchased by China since 2010, as a result of several contracts, as previously announced by their manufacturer NPO Saturn, a total of 239 such engines were delivered. They were purchased to equip the Chinese medium bomber H-6K, which is a modern upgrade of the Soviet Tu-16 bomber of the 1950s. and remains the only Chinese carrier of long-range cruise missiles. In addition, the same engines equipped with Chinese military transport aircraft Y-20, similar in their characteristics to the Russian Il-76 and developed with the help of the Ukrainian "Antonov".

Basis of the park
273 Su-27 and Su-30 aircrafts were delivered from Russia to China since 1992, of which 105 Su-27s were assembled in China under license

The AL-31 engines of several modifications were also delivered to China from the 1990s. - first as part of the Su-27 and Su-30 fighters, and from the beginning of the 2000s. and for installation on a Chinese fighter J-10 and Chinese copies of Su-27 and Su-30. At the same time, China developed its own WS-10 engine for these purposes, and the development of its D-30 engine for the military transport aircraft Y-20 is also being actively pursued.

Continued purchases of Russian aircraft engines for Chinese military aircraft may mean that, despite the significant efforts of Chinese industry, it still can not develop their analogues of the same degree of reliability, says Vasily Kashin, an expert at the Institute of Far Eastern Studies of the Russian Academy of Sciences. In his estimation, engines of the AL-31 type can be used both for replacing engines for Russian fighters remaining in the air force of the People's Liberation Army of China and for equipping their own production vehicles. It can be assumed, the expert continues, that more reliable and more powerful Russian engines are better suited for carrying out service and training in peacetime. With regard to the purchase of D-30 engines, that the total production of H-6K and Y-20 will be at least 100 units for each machine and while they are designed for Russian engines. According to Kashin, the new purchases can also mean that China is not satisfied with the quality of its engines for the fourth generation fighters, and that means that there is still the possibility of cooperation with Russia in the field of engines for the fifth generation fighters. It is already known that the newest Chinese fighter J-20 was tested not only with Chinese engines, but also with one of the modifications of AL-31, the expert concludes.

https://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/articles/2016/10/25/662267-voennih-aviadvigatelei-rossii

New Update on Engine

 

[albertshen]

Is that really an update?

China continues to purchase military aircraft engines in Russia
October 25, 2016 00:27

• 
  
  
  • Alexey Nikolsky
  • / Vedomosti

Between Rosoboronexport and the Chinese side, new contracts were recently concluded for the delivery of Russian aircraft engines AL-31 and D-30 to China, a man close to Rosoboronexport and a manager of an aviation industry enterprise told Vedomosti. We are talking about three-year contracts for the supply of about a hundred engines of each type, the manager specified. The cost of such a number of engines can be about $ 1 billion, says Deputy Director of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies Konstantin Makienko. The cost of only one engine of the AL-31 type is likely to have already exceeded $ 5 million per unit, the cost of the D-30 is unlikely to be less, believes Makienko. The official representative of Rosoboronexport declined to comment.

D-30 engines have been purchased by China since 2010, as a result of several contracts, as previously announced by their manufacturer NPO Saturn, a total of 239 such engines were delivered. They were purchased to equip the Chinese medium bomber H-6K, which is a modern upgrade of the Soviet Tu-16 bomber of the 1950s. and remains the only Chinese carrier of long-range cruise missiles. In addition, the same engines equipped with Chinese military transport aircraft Y-20, similar in their characteristics to the Russian Il-76 and developed with the help of the Ukrainian "Antonov".

Basis of the park
273 Su-27 and Su-30 aircrafts were delivered from Russia to China since 1992, of which 105 Su-27s were assembled in China under license

The AL-31 engines of several modifications were also delivered to China from the 1990s. - first as part of the Su-27 and Su-30 fighters, and from the beginning of the 2000s. and for installation on a Chinese fighter J-10 and Chinese copies of Su-27 and Su-30. At the same time, China developed its own WS-10 engine for these purposes, and the development of its D-30 engine for the military transport aircraft Y-20 is also being actively pursued.

Continued purchases of Russian aircraft engines for Chinese military aircraft may mean that, despite the significant efforts of Chinese industry, it still can not develop their analogues of the same degree of reliability, says Vasily Kashin, an expert at the Institute of Far Eastern Studies of the Russian Academy of Sciences. In his estimation, engines of the AL-31 type can be used both for replacing engines for Russian fighters remaining in the air force of the People's Liberation Army of China and for equipping their own production vehicles. It can be assumed, the expert continues, that more reliable and more powerful Russian engines are better suited for carrying out service and training in peacetime. With regard to the purchase of D-30 engines, that the total production of H-6K and Y-20 will be at least 100 units for each machine and while they are designed for Russian engines. According to Kashin, the new purchases can also mean that China is not satisfied with the quality of its engines for the fourth generation fighters, and that means that there is still the possibility of cooperation with Russia in the field of engines for the fifth generation fighters. It is already known that the newest Chinese fighter J-20 was tested not only with Chinese engines, but also with one of the modifications of AL-31, the expert concludes.

https://www.vedomosti.ru/politics/articles/2016/10/25/662267-voennih-aviadvigatelei-rossii

Seriously? Don't try to be a smartass because you are not! We all know J-20 used Russian Engine for the most part. However, your article is from LAST YEAR and the picture I provided just leaked a few weeks ago. It is only matter of time when they are finally able to build their own engine.

 

[Armand2REP]

Seriously? Don't try to be a smartass because you are not! We all know J-20 used Russian Engine for the most part. However, your article is from LAST YEAR and the picture I provided just leaked a few weeks ago. It is only matter of time when they are finally able to build their own engine.

The whole point was to show it was NOT AN UPDATE so of course it would be from THE PAST. It also shows Chinese reliance on Russia for engines is still ongoing as a 3 year long lead contract has been negotiated for further AL-31F engines.

 

[albertshen]

The whole point was to show it was NOT AN UPDATE so of course it would be from THE PAST. It also shows Chinese reliance on Russia for engines is still ongoing as a 3 year long lead contract has been negotiated for further AL-31F engines.

How is it not an update? Do you even check the picture bro? Any changes are considered. Like I said the photo was recently leaked. If you want to prove J-20 lack of capability due to its engine, sure we can agree. I'm pretty sure the engine from the picture provided is not AL-31F and it is most likely an upgrade version of WS-10. J-20 still has a long way but it won't takes more than 30 years like some other Indian project. In case you don't know what update is, it is to "make (something) more modern or up to date". What I posted is what the newest changes to J-20.

 

[albertshen]

AND do not give me a Russian source when you can't even read Russian! (PS no google translate).

 

[Armand2REP]

AND do not give me a Russian source when you can't even read Russian! (PS no google translate).

I know you don't read Russian so I saved you the trouble. Am I supposed to tell anything from this blurry picture of WS-10? Does China make the worst cameras on the planet?

 

[J20!]

The whole point was to show it was NOT AN UPDATE so of course it would be from THE PAST. It also shows Chinese reliance on Russia for engines is still ongoing as a 3 year long lead contract has been negotiated for further AL-31F engines.

All Su30MKK and Su27/J11A's bought from Russia or assembled from kits in China are still operational and still fly on AL-31F's. That's 200+ twin engine fighters active with the PLAAF/PLANAF.

Not to mention that all the 56 in service J10B's all use AL-31F as does the J10C production line which has delivered 50+ J10C's since 2015 and is still going.

OF COURSE THERE IS A LONG LEAD CONTRACT FOR NEW ENGINES.

Why are you trolling this thread AGAIN @Armand2REP?

 

[J20!]

I know you don't read Russian so I saved you the trouble. Am I supposed to tell anything from this blurry picture of WS-10? Does China make the worst cameras on the planet?

Blurry or not, the picture clearly depicts a J20 air frame equipped with a WS10 variant. Its clearly a positive development; more-so that the WS10 has been modified to include stealth shaping around the exhaust nozzles.

Why are you always so butt-hurt by any Chinese technological developments?

 

[Armand2REP]

The WS-10 was made interchangeable with AL-31F, in fact it was designed to replace it. If you are still buying AL-31Fs, it means WS-10 is not ready. It is well known that Chinese inferiority in engines is a national shame and embarrassment that the CCP is desperate to wean itself off of the Russian teat. Especially after investing $15.8 billion into turbofan research since 2012. So all that money has bought saw toothed edges on an engine nozzle?

All Su30MKK and Su27/J11A's bought from Russia or assembled from kits in China are still operational and still fly on AL-31F's. That's 200+ twin engine fighters active with the PLAAF/PLANAF.

Not to mention that all the 56 in service J10B's all use AL-31F as does the J10C production line which has delivered 50+ J10C's since 2015 and is still going.

OF COURSE THERE IS A LONG LEAD CONTRACT FOR NEW ENGINES.

Why are you trolling this thread AGAIN @Armand2REP?

 

[J20!]

The WS-10 was made interchangeable with AL-31F, in fact it was designed to replace it. If you are still buying AL-31Fs, it means WS-10 is not ready. It is well known that Chinese inferiority in engines is a national shame and embarrassment that the CCP is desperate to wean itself off of the Russian teat. Especially after investing $15.8 billion into turbofan research since 2012. So all that money has bought saw toothed edges on an engine nozzle?

OF COURSE the WS10 turbofan is continuously being upgraded. Why shouldn't it be? And why would the only development on the WS10 variant in that picture be its nozzle?? Are you sure there haven't been any other improvements made on that variant? Max thrust, fuel consumption, weight? T:W ratio? How can you tell from a photo that the only improvement on it are saw-tooth nozzles? Would that even make sense?

The WS10A is one engine in a long list of aero engines produced and being developed in China mate. It alone powers all the J11B's in PLAAF and PLANAF service, accounting for 200+ airframes. Not to mention that it equips all aircraft currently coming out of the J16 production line which is at more than 48 already.

"a national shame"? You're laying it on a bit thick mate. There are dozens of engine development projects ongoing in China, the WS10A/? included. Some military and some civilian with tens of billions invested in R&D across the board. I wouldn't call them a "national shame", a step in the right direction maybe. It's certainly better than any other developing country, and most developed countries too. So what if the military has Russian/Ukrainian engines in its inventory?

 

[no smoking]

The WS-10 was made interchangeable with AL-31F, in fact it was designed to replace it.

Who tell you that?
Firstly, when first prototype of WS-10 was assembled, the Su-27 with AL-31F for Chinese were not rolling out from Russian production line yet. No, on the contrast, AL-31F was bought as plan B;
Secondly, no, WS-10 has never been made interchangeable with AL-31F, in fact, the J-10 designer had to re-design the whole back half J-10 to accommodate AL-31F. No, you can't replace the AL-31F engine with WS-10 in any plane in service without great adjustment on the structure of plane.

If you are still buying AL-31Fs, it means WS-10 is not ready.

Sure, more than 500 WS-10 series engines are currently in service, it is not ready. I love fanboy.

It is well known that Chinese inferiority in engines is a national shame and embarrassment that the CCP is desperate to wean itself off of the Russian teat.

Is that how Indians think of their Kaveri engine -- a national shame? Well, you shouldn't.

Especially after investing $15.8 billion into turbofan research since 2012.So all that money has bought saw toothed edges on an engine nozzle?

Since 1940s, Americans, Russians, British, French, each of them have spent hundreds billions dollars in engine area, only fanboy will think $15.8 billion can bridge the gap within 5 years.

The funny thing is this fanboy is entitled with "Chini expert". No wonder he is so popular here

 

[Armand2REP]

Who tell you that?
Firstly, when first prototype of WS-10 was assembled, the Su-27 with AL-31F for Chinese were not rolling out from Russian production line yet. No, on the contrast, AL-31F was bought as plan B;
Secondly, no, WS-10 has never been made interchangeable with AL-31F, in fact, the J-10 designer had to re-design the whole back half J-10 to accommodate AL-31F. No, you can't replace the AL-31F engine with WS-10 in any plane in service without great adjustment on the structure of plane.

Pictures of the J-10, J-11 and J-20 with both engines tell me that.

Sure, more than 500 WS-10 series engines are currently in service, it is not ready. I love fanboy.

I love fanboy that has no pictures to prove hundreds of J-11s flying with WS-10 but have hundreds of orders for more AL-31F.

Is that how Indians think of their Kaveri engine -- a national shame? Well, you shouldn't.

I am not Indian but we will fix Indian engines. We won't fix yours because you massacre peaceful protesters.

Since 1940s, Americans, Russians, British, French, each of them have spent hundreds billions dollars in engine area, only fanboy will think $15.8 billion can bridge the gap within 5 years.

Safran spends $1.7 billion annually which is pretty much the total expenditure of aviation engine R&T of the whole country. We sell the most aviation engines in the world so that little goes a long way. AVIC has been around since 1951 so what have they been spending their hundreds of billions on?

The funny thing is this fanboy is entitled with "Chini expert". No wonder he is so popular here

I can dissect Chinese propaganda very well.

 

[Aghore_King]

Pictures of the J-10, J-11 and J-20 with both engines tell me that.



I love fanboy that has no pictures to prove hundreds of J-11s flying with WS-10 but have hundreds of orders for more AL-31F.



I am not Indian but we will fix Indian engines. We won't fix yours because you massacre peaceful protesters.



Safran spends $1.7 billion annually which is pretty much the total expenditure of aviation engine R&T of the whole country. We sell the most aviation engines in the world so that little goes a long way. AVIC has been around since 1951 so what have they been spending their hundreds of billions on?



I can dissect Chinese propaganda very well.

Only chinese public is fooled by chinese propoganda...

 

[shiphone]

LOL.... hopeless loser..
the others in the world are advancing , the loser could only whining there....
but this scene is quite enjoyable for us...

---------------------
the new and latest prototype of J-20 project, the PT-2021

the high speed taxi happened yesterday and the maiden flight took place this afternoon around 1pm. it lasted around 27 minutes...

the first show of WS-10B powered J20 ... the serrated edges of the nozzle is the another highlight.

 

[J20!]

I love fanboy that has no pictures to prove hundreds of J-11s flying with WS-10 but have hundreds of orders for more AL-31F.
I can dissect Chinese propaganda very well.

Off-topic, but I cant help correcting your "mistakes":

I love "French"(ie Indian) "CHINI-EXPERTS" who have 0 knowledge of the Chinese Military Industrial complex despite claiming to have lived in the PRC.

I unlike some, rely on fact-based evidence for my assertions.

There are hundreds of pictures of WS10A equipped J11B's.and twin seater J11B/H's.

I know you'll ignore any evidence regardless of how strong it is, but for those enthusiasts who are ACTUALLY interested in the PLAAF/PLANAF inventory of J11B/BH airframes, there are 84 J11B/BH pics available in the link below:

http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/p/gallery-i.html

Also available on th galery page above are the initial batch of J11B's which were in inducted in the 2000's powered by AL31F's. Every J11B produced from batch 2 till the last has been powered by a pair of WS10A's.

Hutong, who runs the blog linked above keeps a collection of pics of Chinese military aircraft showing their serial numbers to track the numbers of aircraft actually in service. Not every aircraft in service has been photographed, but whenever a pic showing a serial number is available on the net, the Chinese Aviation Blog add it to the list.

Just as a bonus, here's a J11B pictured intercepting a US Navy Boeing P8 off Hainan island. Note: its flying on WS10A's.

Despite what Mr. CHINI EXPERT here claims, the WS10A has been in frontline service for years.

 

[J20!]

Only chinese public is fooled by chinese propoganda...

Many Indians on this forum have this problem of equating India with China. If the Indian defense sector is incapable of some technological feat, they immediately project that shortcoming onto the Chinese military industrial complex.

The PLAAF has been flying military jets with Chinese designed and produced Turbo Fan and Turbo jet engines for years. That's just a fact, not "propaganda". Now Chengdu is flying a Chinese designed and produce stealth fighter with a Chinese designed and produced turbofan engine.

That too is a fact. The pictures are posted above for you to see. But hey, who am I to interfere with fanboy denial ie ostrich syndrome..

 

[Armand2REP]

Just click through the pictures of fighters claiming to be WS-10A when they are clearly AL-31F.

I am getting tired of finding AL-31Fs, I can't click anymore! If it was such a reliable engine it would be flying on J-10.

Off-topic, but I cant help correcting your "mistakes":

I love "French"(ie Indian) "CHINI-EXPERTS" who have 0 knowledge of the Chinese Military Industrial complex despite claiming to have lived in the PRC.

 

[Aghore_King]

Many Indians on this forum have this problem of equating India with China. If the Indian defense sector is incapable of some technological feat, they immediately project that shortcoming onto the Chinese military industrial complex.


The PLAAF has been flying military jets with Chinese designed and produced Turbo Fan and Turbo jet engines for years. That's just a fact, not "propaganda". Now Chengdu is flying a Chinese designed and produce stealth fighter with a Chinese designed and produced turbofan engine.

That too is a fact. The pictures are posted above for you to see. But hey, who am I to interfere with fanboy denial ie ostrich syndrome..

I am not equating India with China...nor i am denying Chinese technological advances....i am only stating that Chinese media often overhypes their achievements....Like the exaggeration of new light tank and many things like that...

 

[J20!]

Just click through the pictures of fighters claiming to be WS-10A when they are clearly AL-31F.

I am getting tired of finding AL-31Fs, I can't click anymore! If it was such a reliable engine it would be flying on J-10.

Why are you such a troll @Armand2REP? As I said:

Also available on the gallery page above are the initial batch of J11B's which were in inducted in the 2000's powered by AL31F's. Every J11B produced from batch 2 till the last has been powered by a pair of WS10A's.

So from a list of 117 serial numbers in 6 different batches of J11B/BH's, you "just happened" to post pictures from just Batch 1?

Every serial number you have posted above: 10021, 10022, 10023 and 10025 you purposefully selected from the list of 27, batch 1 J11B's powered by AL31F's.

For anyone else with the eyes to read, there are 5 more batches (2-6) with 90 different J11B serial numbers flying on WS10A's.

I've never seen you admit that you were wrong. Wont hold my breath for you to do so today. Stop trolling.

 

[Armand2REP]

You think your achievements are so much greater than India when you both face the same problems. Your turbofan is no better than Kaveri, the difference is the Indians aren't dumb enough to risk the lives of their pilots on engines that don't meet specs. Apparently China isn't so confident as they keep importing AL-31s by the hundreds. It is technically easier to make a non-afterburning turbofan like WS-20( based on WS-10), but China still has to import D-30s. That is enough evidence for anyone to prove that the Chinese core is rotten.

Many Indians on this forum have this problem of equating India with China. If the Indian defense sector is incapable of some technological feat, they immediately project that shortcoming onto the Chinese military industrial complex.

The PLAAF has been flying military jets with Chinese designed and produced Turbo Fan and Turbo jet engines for years. That's just a fact, not "propaganda". Now Chengdu is flying a Chinese designed and produce stealth fighter with a Chinese designed and produced turbofan engine.

That too is a fact. The pictures are posted above for you to see. But hey, who am I to interfere with fanboy denial ie ostrich syndrome..