J-21/J-31 Chinese 5th Generation Stealth Fighter

G90

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@G90 Very smart ......
Pictures worth thousands of words, sometimes you need to believe your own eyes and be honest to your own heart.

Putting a PAK-FA together with a F-15, you can barely tell which one looks more advanced, without any prior knowledge, if someone tell you actually PAK-FA and F-15 belong to the same generation, you will believe that without any doubts.

Thats why I say its pretty obvious to everyone the reason why some fanboys here keep trying to play down Chinese stealth fighters is due to their huge insecurity, and have a look at the russian's pathetic attempt at design a stealth fighter, no one can blame them for their huge insecurity, especially considering the fact their future airforce depends on these pseduo-stealth fighters.
 
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AprilLyrics

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well,IMO T50 of course is to be a 4th(5th) gen fighter.but its disorder lines of belly and air inlet frustrate me.i am not eye-rcs watcher but i still consist smooth belly like F22 and J20 is better.
 

sayareakd

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Lets call a spade a spade, basically PAK-FA is a 3rd generation fighter with a third generation airframe, it should not even count as a stealth fighter, it is basically a very poor attempt at trying to be stealth.

It is estentially a rolled su-27.
i know what you are doing, still beta Rusi have all the experience in making aircraft, long before you guys started using their aircraft, they have perfected the art in every aspect, unlike you guys who are struggling with aircraft engine. Just having air frame with engine does not prove much, if this is not the case why are you guys still buying engines from them.
 

G90

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i know what you are doing, still beta Rusi have all the experience in making aircraft, long before you guys started using their aircraft, they have perfected the art in every aspect, unlike you guys who are struggling with aircraft engine. Just having air frame with engine does not prove much, if this is not the case why are you guys still buying engines from them.
Eninstein's high school physics teacher may be older and start his career eariler learning physics, but that doesnt mean he is better at physics than Eninstein.
 

pankaj nema

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Chinese are the MASTERS of LIES ; CONS And Manipulations

They have to keep intact the ILLUSION of a super power in the making
 

G90

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Not necessary to include T50 into discussion here, too noisy.
Bringing out PAK-FA is like hitting the nail of many of the restless fanboys here, thats their brittlest nerve, without understanding the root of the enomous insecurity some fanboys here demonstrated, there is no point to have any meaningful discussions.

These fanboys dont want to debate with you for the sake of chasing truth and knowledge, they are simply in some serious denial mode and using debate as way to hide their huge complexity, and I bet they themselves know that.

Never waste any of your time on someone who is in serious denial mode, since actually both you and them have the same opinions, the only difference is they try them best to pretend as if it were otherwise, which makes themselves looks desperate and acts restless.
 
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huaxia rox

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I don't know if you plan on getting this working on your carrier, but this is definitely not the aircraft that competed with J-20. The two aircraft simply don't mix.

This is more in the 10 ton weight category while the J-20 is above 15 tons weight category, empty weight.

F-22/F-35
PAKFA/AMCA
J-20/J-31

So, no chance of competition between these two different classes of aircraft.

This is what I am talking about.
High end : CAC J-20 / SAC J-xx competition. Winner J-20.
Low end : CAC J-xx / SAC J-xx competition. Yet to be seen if it is being done this way.

Export market >>> J-31. It is possible a derivative of this aircraft may be used for low end competition. But considering there is no govt funding, this is a in house project only for the export market and hence won't be as good as what PLAAF may need.
the way u judge the whole thing is merely based on the size of j-31........but u can never rule out the possibility of 601 having reduced the size of j-31
after their defeat......and the way i speculate the who thing is basically based on the fact that j-31 is said to be the former compititor of j-20....if it really is its impossible j-31 is just some low end product....and 1 thing my indian friends probably dont know is j-20 is the 1st fighter jet (not in service yet) 611 has made with twin engine design so far while 601 has very good exprience in making twin engine jets....apart from being smaller in size than j-20 i dont see any point that can prove j-31 is actually lower end than j-20 (canopy not in 1 piece is a pretty minor issue and its maybe a better choice for a navy fighterjet supposed to be put on AC).......getting no PLA vibe may just mean some sort of disinformation and the budget is limited in deed and for those old generation officers in PLA they may not know how important a AC based fighter jet can mean......

There are two Su-35s. One which was developed very early on.

Su-27M >>> Su-35 with canards >>> Su-37... all three are experimental aircraft. MKI used flight control laws developed from these aircraft.

Su-27M2 >>> Su-35BM >>> Su-35S... Russian production version for VVS. Modified from the same Su-27SK aircraft that was exported to PLAAF.

Both are totally different aircraft. It is just that they have the -35 designation.
the point is i fail to see which part of my post is wrong which made u jump out to make your point.......this is what said before:
3 i agree with some of posters in prc.....the engine part of j-31 seems to be demonstrating some TVC tech....not mature enough but at least some gap can be observed clearly between the engines and the rear part of the fuselage.....this tech is even crucial for j-20 coz i my self m expecting j-20s canard can finally be dismounted becoz of the TVC tech....and as a consequence the RCS of j-20 can be largely minimized.....similar developments can be found in su-35 design....the initial su-35 was with canard and TVC but along with the engine upgrade the final su-35 is using TVC only without canard design.....
 

huaxia rox

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Mate IAF is well placed even NOW

Mig 29 ; Su 30 MKI and Mirage 2000 will kick your A $$
the problem here is the porfermence IAF just showed in kargil war really doesnt seem to back your point up at least from a chinese point of view my indian friend......
 

huaxia rox

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Pictures worth thousands of words, sometimes you need to believe your own eyes and be honest to your own heart.

Putting a PAK-FA together with a F-15, you can barely tell which one looks more advanced, without any prior knowledge, if someone tell you actually PAK-FA and F-15 belong to the same generation, you will believe that without any doubts.

Thats why I say its pretty obvious to everyone the reason why some fanboys here keep trying to play down Chinese stealth fighters is due to their huge insecurity, and have a look at the russian's pathetic attempt at design a stealth fighter, no one can blame them for their huge insecurity, especially considering the fact their future airforce depends on these pseduo-stealth fighters.
the layout of inlet of T-50 which bears strong traditional sukhoi hallmark is indeed good for unstealth planes.......and i guess it may finally be redesigned....apart from that sukhoi still has good exprience in making good planes....and all the subsystems like radar or engine of russia r still advanced......of coz the engine or its sensor system that controls the engine may need to be checked and modified a bit after the flameout accident in front of the world......anyway i think indians always have extra money and time to support russians on this kind of projects as usual......
 

p2prada

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the way u judge the whole thing is merely based on the size of j-31........but u can never rule out the possibility of 601 having reduced the size of j-31
This assumption has the least possibility of happening. There is no "smaller" version of Eagle or Flanker.

after their defeat......and the way i speculate the who thing is basically based on the fact that j-31 is said to be the former compititor of j-20....if it really is its impossible j-31 is just some low end product
Let's just say, if SAC really used J-31 as a competitor to J-20, then it stood no chance right from the beginning.

the point is i fail to see which part of my post is wrong which made u jump out to make your point.......this is what said before:
This part is wrong,
the initial su-35 was with canard and TVC but along with the engine upgrade the final su-35 is using TVC only without canard design
There is no "initial" and "final" Su-35 design. They were both wholly different designs evolved from different aircraft and a different history.
 

huaxia rox

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There is no "initial" and "final" Su-35 design. They were both wholly different designs evolved from different aircraft and a different history.
while all the assumption parts about j-31 r indeed something i cant just prove it nor can i prove u r wrong.....for this bit i can just use smilie for the 1st time my indian friend.....:facepalm:
 

p2prada

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The Flanker has 6 distinct aircraft types.

Su-27K >>> Su-33 >>> J-15(carrier)

Su-27IB >>> Su-34 (strike)

Su-27M >>> Su-35 >>> Su-37 (supermaneuverability, experimental)

Su-27SK >>> J-11A >>> J-11B(basic air superiority/partial multirole) 16 ton airframe

Su-27SM >>> Su-35BM >>> Su-35S (advanced air superiority, supermaneuverability) 19 ton airframe

Su-27UB >>> Su-30 >>> Su-30K >>> Su-30MK >>> MKK >>> MK2 >>>MKI >>> J-16 etc(strike or multirole and/or supermaneuverability) (evolution)

Would you agree if I say Su-27, Su-30, Su-33, Su-34, Su-35S, Su-37 are entirely different aircraft. You can check pictures on the internet for each of these.

Su-27 formed the base for all, but none of the others are close to it in design outside of looking a little alike. That's why the different designation numbers rather than simply call it the same Su-27 A, B, C, D etc.

With designations like J-11, J-15, J-16, J-17(?) you are following similar designation structure as Sukhoi too, accepting the fact that they are wholly different aircraft.

Hypothetical stuff,
I have a feeling it would be the same with J-20 and J-31. J-20 may have been assigned the numbers from 20 to 29 for different versions. Similarly J-31 will have numbers from 30 to 39 and so on. So, the next version may be a J-4x.

Looking at the distribution of even and odd numbers J-20 may be CAC's prototype while J-21 may have been SACs, like YF-22/YF-23 or X-32/X-35. Now J-31 seems to be SAC's while there could be a J-30 for CAC. I dunno, just guessing.
 

navkapu

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Pictures worth thousands of words, sometimes you need to believe your own eyes and be honest to your own heart.

Putting a PAK-FA together with a F-15, you can barely tell which one looks more advanced, without any prior knowledge, if someone tell you actually PAK-FA and F-15 belong to the same generation, you will believe that without any doubts.

Thats why I say its pretty obvious to everyone the reason why some fanboys here keep trying to play down Chinese stealth fighters is due to their huge insecurity, and have a look at the russian's pathetic attempt at design a stealth fighter, no one can blame them for their huge insecurity, especially considering the fact their future airforce depends on these pseduo-stealth fighters.
@G90 Very Very Smart...... I think you are correct and i think Chinese stealth is true stealth ...... I think we need to see more of chinese stealth and also pakistani stealth in the future on this forum. Quality of the forum would definitely improve.
 

Armand2REP

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J20!

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This may not necessarily be the case. It all depends on how much you are willing to spend in RCS reduction measures. RCS depends on 3 major factors; size, reflectivity and directivity.

Size, well it is not a large aircraft and hence will have a small RCS. Reflectivity is stealth shaping which is adequate on all 3 airframes, J-31, J-20 and PAKFA.

However what you haven't considered at all is probably the most important of the three. This is what makes the F-22 the king of the hill while the others are only trying to catch up. This is Directivity or the materials that go into making the airframe and the radar absorbent materials including paints. F-35 uses a jacket made of carbon nanotubes and covered with RAM. PAKFA, currently unknown, what we have seen is only the outer shell. J-20 may be doing well with what it already has today.

So, you see just looking at an airframe and claiming it is as stealthy as fully funded programs is not enough. As a matter of fact there is nobody on the planet who can claim the aircraft has this and this RCS just by eyeballing the airframe, especially if you are comparing two different airframes.

The reason I came to this opinion of mine is not because of size or reflectivity. It is because of directivity. Considering SAC built the frame for export out of their own pocket, how much would they be able to spend on materials if aircraft like J-20, PAKFA and F-22 require Billions just to get prototypes flying in the air. Sukhoi/Russia alone have been speculated to have spent $2Billion on the 3 PAKFA prototypes. Would SAC spend Billions for an export customer they may never get?

Even getting JF-17 to fly cost $500Million, all that money on just an airframe, FCS and engine.

As of today we cannot say whether SAC has been involved in a govt funded stealth program like CAC to claim they have been researching materials since sometime. All we know is they had a design as a competitor to J-20. There is no information if actual prototypes were built, like the YF-22 and YF-23 or whether they were flight tested. Perhaps it was a direct jump to the J-20 prototype after a paper competition. If SAC is able to use these expensive materials and built their own prototype after spending Billions all on their own funding, then be my guest, believe anything you want.



It's primary role may be air superiority.



Only if there is confirmation that it is a state funded project and not a company funded project.



Your oldest J-10As will be old enough for replacement, nearing 20 years by the time J-31 or equivalent is ready. Your newest J-10Bs don't have to be replaced at the same time. As J-31s or equivalent's production continues the older J-10s will be subsequently replaced. Or are you suggesting the J-10As will receive service life extension programs to keep it relevant. Unless of course China is not able to manufacture the jets fast enough to replace older ones.
You' seem to be over-looking two things:

1. AVIC, like any other company in the world would not invest billions of dollars into developing a stealth aircraft without concrete agreements with potential customers. You're basically sugesting that they developed this jet in the faith that a customer would come up somewhere.

Even when developing the JF17, AVIC was assured of a substantial order from the PAF. The only customer AVIC can look to, to order this aircraft in numbers high enough to make a profit is the PLA(whether its the PLAN or PLAAF). No export customers could order any substantial numbers(even Pakistan could probably only afford 2 squadrons), so you cant designate this fighter an export jet in the same way as the JF17. They would never embark on such a venture without concrete assurance of large orders from the PLA..

2. AVIC is an ENORMOUS corporation, of which Chengdu and 601 institute are just fractions of. It's revenues have already crossed 300 billion CNY (ie $47.5 billion) this year. It can easily afford a project that at most would cost $500 million a year, for not a very long period of time (this project is said to have started in 2008).

And considering that both Chengdu and Shengyang are arms of AVIC, the RAM on the J20 could easily be used as input in designing the J31's RAM, there's no need to re-invent the wheel within the same corporation on products that are separated by 6 years. Same as on the F22 and F35. The improvement offered by the F35's nanotube jacket RAM over the F22's is in terms of durability of the RAM, which is pretty maintenance intensive on the F22. Two projects give the advantage of benig able to correct weaknesses on the first design when working on the second as technologies mature.

Considering that its been officially leaked(it was obviously a purposeful leak by the CCP), it should not be discounted that maybe PLA funding has already been approved.

This IS the medium weight compliment to the J20. It would be erroneous to assume that China will produce yet another stealth, A2A airframe, which would be an enormous waste as this airframe, considering its stealth shaping could easily fulfill the medium weight fighter requirement and the export fighter requirement (just as the PAK FA is essentially an export fighter). The only other manned stealth airframe we can look towards seeing coming out of China in the foreseeable future would have to be Xian's bomber prototype, not another medium weight fighter(unless its STOVL).

PS. The J10 is there to replace the J7 of which there are hundreds of examples.. Even the first J10's are no where near 20 years old. remember that they entered service in only in circa 2004 2005. Add to that the J10B and they wont need replacing until the 2030's.
 
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