J-21/J-31 Chinese 5th Generation Stealth Fighter

farhan_9909

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this has nothing to do with Pakistan

but the fact is After 2015 paf must be looking for a 5th gen fighter

2 Possible contenders

j2x single engine from cac
or
J31 twin engine from sac

but beyond 2015
 

p2prada

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They will be lucky to deliver by 2015, more like post 2020 options. J-20 itself is claimed to be inducted in 2018. The other aircraft are yet to fly.

A little realism is nice, no?

J-10s seem to be a more sensible option beyond 2015, your economy won't turn around in just 3 years.

But, yeah. Seems like PAF may have options now when 5th gen comes into play. Twin engine vs Single engine will see only one winner though, single engine.

Maybe both, one to replace JF-17s, the other to replace F-16s.
 

farhan_9909

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They will be lucky to deliver by 2015, more like post 2020 options. J-20 itself is claimed to be inducted in 2018. The other aircraft are yet to fly.

A little realism is nice, no?

J-10s seem to be a more sensible option beyond 2015, your economy won't turn around in just 3 years.

But, yeah. Seems like PAF may have options now when 5th gen comes into play. Twin engine vs Single engine will see only one winner though, single engine.

Maybe both, one to replace JF-17s, the other to replace F-16s.
i meant beyond 2015 paf to think about 5th gen fighter
and Possible induction by 2020

well economy is doing much better than the past few years(2012 growth rate 3.7% up from 2.4% in 2011 with next year expected growth 4.6%)
most of indication are positive

f16 is to remain in service Atleast TILL 2030

recently fatman has indicated that jft block 1 will be upgraded to block 2 standard later on

while beyond 2016 jft 3 production to start
which means no jft replacement TILL Atleast 2040-45

my rough estimate for 2025

250 jft (block 2 and 3)
odd 80 f16
Atleast 60 j10(36 confirmed as of now)
and 2 squadrons of 5th gen

this is pretty much a good defensive force
 

huaxia rox

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1 if this j-31 is the 1 said to be a former compitor of j-20 project and then got defeated i will have to think while its to some extent inferior to j-20 from PLAAFs point of view it wont be like f-22 vs f-35 but more like f-22 vs f-23 by which i mean it shouldnt be some real cheap stuff mainly for export market although it can be exported....actually what cant?besides nuke related stuff and missiles can go 300 kms above?

2 i dont think prc now has any engine techs that can make fighter jet perform vertical landing which is not a must but quite important if the jet is to be put on our future real AC.....so if this part can be finally developed (of coz within 10 year not a century) will be what i m interested with.....

3 i agree with some of posters in prc.....the engine part of j-31 seems to be demonstrating some TVC tech....not mature enough but at least some gap can be observed clearly between the engines and the rear part of the fuselage.....this tech is even crucial for j-20 coz i my self m expecting j-20s canard can finally be dismounted becoz of the TVC tech....and as a consequence the RCS of j-20 can be largely minimized.....similar developments can be found in su-35 design....the initial su-35 was with canard and TVC but along with the engine upgrade the final su-35 is using TVC only without canard design.....

4 is there any pic about j-20-01 in yanliang??? i thought yanliang was more important place for plane testing where photo shooting is not allowed.........
 

p2prada

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1 if this j-31 is the 1 said to be a former compitor of j-20 project and then got defeated
I don't think this is the case since the aircraft seems to be smaller. This could very well be the low component of PLAAF.

similar developments can be found in su-35 design....the initial su-35 was with canard and TVC but along with the engine upgrade the final su-35 is using TVC only without canard design.....
You are talking about Su-37, but that was a different experimental project, also called Su-27M. Su-35 or more specifically Su-27M2 is an entirely different aircraft compared to the Su-37.

Atleast 60 j10(36 confirmed as of now)
this is pretty much a good defensive force
While I would like to discuss these things, let's not make it a PAF thread. :)
 

Zebra

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yeah you remind me.T-50 still dont have a single piece canopy.

and T-50 is also a export fighter.is it a cheap stuff that russian prepared for india?
There is one another example of export fighter.
MKI, compare with any other Su-30.

If I am not wrong, the T- 50 will also end up like that.
 

shiphone

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Yeah. Now it looks like a real aircraft.


@shiphone


Is there official confirmation that this fighter is for export? Or is it a smaller twin engine version to complement the bigger J-20? Or is it possible there was a third project for the "low" end? Or will the same version be used by PLAAF and export market?

1,I thought it had a project name as 'AMF' appeared in one of the AVIC news press last year. this news indicated that this was for export, along with J10 export version and JF17 two seat version



2,It is a completely new project from another r&d unit although both teams belong to AVIC.they might share some newly developed tech like 'dsi intake','avionics...But they are competitors...and both teams have their own design style and tridition.

3,so far we don't hear anything about the third one---so called single engine ,medium weight version like f35...we don't think we could develop something as powerful as F135/136 in near future...but if the navy open a new bid for naval 4th gen fighter. the southern team might have its project .the northern team might use the naval model of the this 31001 jet for bidding.and if PLAAF want a low end project besides J20 ,this jet will be a strong competitor as well if it performs well in the following test . but both bidding haven't began yet...

4.in PLAAF .3.5 gen stands for J10B ,J16...all new fighter project will be 4 gen(chinese standard). so is this new jet.

--------------------------------
some details about the internal weapon bay....



-------------------------------
about nickname: it is 鹘鹰 (Hu Ying) not 鹞鹰 (Yao Ying)

 
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p2prada

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Interesting, so we are looking at what could be at least four 5th gen prototypes from China.

J-20 and the SAC prototype that lost to it for PLAAF.

J-31 for export.

Possible J-31 vs J-xx for PLAAF and PLAN.

Maybe even 5 if we discard J-31 as a possible contender to PLAAF/PLAN requirements, SAC may develop a whole new aircraft with state funding to compete against CAC.

@shiphone

What about the news that a 4.5th gen aircraft will also be built for export. Were they talking about J-10B?

And the news about a smaller single engine jet for export? JF-17 B3 or a new 4th gen design?
 

p2prada

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China's New Stealth Fighter. Not a repeat from December 2010.
Posted by Bill Sweetman 9:38 AM on Sep 16, 2012

The US defense secretary is on his way to Beijing. Time to unveil a new stealth fighter...

Short take-off and vertical landing has been one of the two driving requirements behind the Joint Strike Fighter design, the other being stealth.

STOVL dictated the single engine, and the STOVL solution chosen for the F-35 demands a big vertical bay behind the cockpit, and a main engine located unusually far forward, to keep the driveshaft length within reason and to put the lift-cruise nozzle in the right longitudinal location for balance.

This constrains the weapon-bay volume and shape, and effectively subdivides the bays into four zones - two AAM bays and two heavy store sections. As Amy Butler reports in Aviation Week this week, too, the weapon bays, wrapped around the engine, get hot and noisy.

If you ever wondered what a JSF might look without those constraints, we now have a live, physical example.

Unfortunately...

..it's Chinese.

One of the photos of the new Shenyang stealth fighter, apparently designated J-31, that appeared on Chinese defense websites over the weekend is such a colossal gimme that it has to have been deliberate. Direct head-on shot? Check. Commercially available aircraft tug? Check. Extreme telephoto, so that perspective effects are lost in the noise? Check.

Sheesh, guys, can't you make it a challenge?

The J-31's wingspan is an F-35-like 37.5 feet, unless my Soviet-watching skills have deserted me. This makes it smaller than the F-22 and considerably smaller than the Chengdu J-20. A good early guess is that the engines are Klimov RD-93s - imported in large numbers for the JF-17 - with a Chinese-built engine to follow.

Turning to the side view of the jet, it looks as if the engines are installed to the rear of the bulkhead that carries the main landing gears. And with no lift fan bay to worry about, the designers have been able to install long weapon bays on the centerline: what will be interesting is how the inlet ducts are routed to optimize internal space.

Overall, the most important point is that the J-31 does not look like a competitor for the J-20 - but as a complement to it. Which, again, might point to the new fighter being a JSF to the J-20's F-22.

And if you wonder about the detail similarities of the shape to the F-22 and F-35, remember this quote from 2010:

In the past year (2009) alone, Lockheed Martin found "six to eight companies" among its subcontractors "had been totally compromised – emails, their networks, everything" according to Lockheed Martin chief information security officer Anne Mullins.
 

AprilLyrics

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rather than some people's opinion,i dont believe J-31 mean to be some downgrade fighter.
not every export fighter is inferior to self use one.better fighter means more money.clever people know how many coins in their pocket and use it properly.
for example,jf-17.it was the best choice Pakistan could make.F-16 was expensive,which can not be mass equiped.j-10 just came out and its output cant even meet plaf's need.so jf-17 became an effective complement.
for this J31,we know it has more potential as it is not only an export fighter,but also a competitor for PLANAF,which means j31 is bound to have more compatibility.for example,it can develop to an air interceptor,multirole fighter,shipboard fighter.just like F-35A/B/C.and all of this depend on consumer's need.the components on it should also have flexibility,from high-level expensive ones to low-level cheap ones.china dont mind sell some of its best weapon.for instance,J10 can be sold to Pakistan.that contains many of china's most advanced technology.i think J20 can be also sold in the future.i say this because i have faith in our R&D industry.our tech improves fast.
its not easy to just consider j31 to be inferior to j20.is F22 better than F-15E when it comes to air-ground mission?so will be it with J20 and j31.it would be definitely different to see whether PLANAF use it to counter KF-16,F-2,F-15J, or F-35.this would be also like PAF use it to counter rafale, su30mki, or T50.if enemy fighter is a 5th generation fighter,client of J31 will demand a high-end version.
high-end version doesnt mean changing a lot.maybe just a radar,or engine.simple modification makes it feasible to give rise to different J31 variants.
 

p2prada

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rather than some people's opinion,i dont believe J-31 mean to be some downgrade fighter.
not every export fighter is inferior to self use one.better fighter means more money.clever people know how many coins in their pocket and use it properly.
Are you talking about Bill Sweetman?

I am not sure what you understood, but he is praising the aircraft, claiming it to be a better design than the F-35.
 

Oracle

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Questions Abound as China Unveils Another Stealth Jet



Here we go again.

Twenty-one months after China's Chengdu aerospace firm unveiled its J-20 jet fighter prototype — Beijing's first stealth warplane — the rival Shenyang company has revealed what appears to be a competing, radar-evading plane.

Over the weekend photos of increasing resolution leaked online depicting a previously unknown, black-painted warplane with the distinctive qualities of a stealth design. Perhaps it's only a coincidence that the stealth jet was revealed right before U.S. Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta was due to arrive in China. But the Beijing government is known to use these online leaks to show off its military advancements.

So China now possesses two potentially combat-capable stealth jets. But — and we can't emphasize this enough — it's not at all certain that either will make it through development, testing and full-scale production and into front-line service. Just ask the U.S. Air Force, which since the 1980s has overseen creation of no fewer than four different stealth fighter prototypes, but so far has only managed to equip just six war-ready squadrons with fewer than 200 operational jets. And at an extremely high price: up to $700 million per plane, depending on how you count.

The J-21 that appeared this weekend is outwardly similar to the nearly two-year-old J-20. Both have two engines, two tails, big trapezoidal wings and the sharp, faceted features of a radar-evading plane. In that sense the J-21 and the J-20 evoke America's first batch of stealth prototypes, the twin-tail, twin-engine Lockheed YF-22 and Northrop YF-23.


Those two planes flew head-to-head in 1991, vying for an Air Force construction contract. The YF-22 won and, 14 years, a major redesign and some $70-billion later, entered service as the F-22 Raptor. Ten years later the Pentagon ran a second competition pitting the Boeing X-32 versus Lockheed's X-35 — both single-engine stealth designs. Again, Lockheed won, and is today developing the F-35 into a combat-ready warplane, though painfully slowly.

It's unclear whether Beijing intends to compete the J-20 against the J-21 for a single acquisition program. It's equally possible both jets are meant for production. It's also conceivable that neither is — that they're both strictly test vehicles. "Feng," an analyst writing for Information Dissemination, believes Beijing can only afford to manufacture one of the new planes and will be forced to choose. But that's conjecture. As with any Chinese weapons initiative, among outsiders there are more questions than answers.

For example, just how stealthy is the J-21 — and for that matter, the slightly older J-20? Both share the general shape of the U.S. F-22. But American stealth design relies on more than shape. Special radar-absorbing materials, sophisticated heat-absorption systems, "silent" electronic gear plus extreme high speed and altitude performance all combine to give the F-22 its so-far unique ability to evade enemy defenses. It's hard to say whether China has mastered, or even attempted, those techniques.

Moreover, if the airplane revealed this weekend is the new J-21, then what exactly is the partially-disassembled, shrink-wrapped airplane photographed being trucked through Chinese cities back in June? When that plane first appeared, some observers thought it was the J-21 being shipped in pieces to an airfield for assembly and testing. But the differences between it and Shenyang's new prototype are too big and numerous for the two to be directly related. Whatever the June jet is, it remains mostly unseen and, to outsiders, entirely unknown.

In other words, China has just pulled the cover off its second type of stealth fighter. But it may already have a third in the works. And it's even possible one or more of them will eventually evolve into a useful front-line warplane.

Wired
 

AprilLyrics

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Are you talking about Bill Sweetman?

I am not sure what you understood, but he is praising the aircraft, claiming it to be a better design than the F-35.
i mean J31,which SAC provide potential consumers with,is more a platform than a fighter.a platform can be add on different components from consumers' need.
the reason is easy:J31 is a program by SAC not PLA.it is for sale.it has no clear objective like J20
 

p2prada

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i mean J31,which SAC provide potential consumers with,is more a platform than a fighter.a platform can be add on different components from consumers' need.
the reason is easy:J31 is a program by SAC not PLA.it is for sale.it has no clear objective like J20
Yes. It is something that can be customised by the client. So, this offers it a better option to clients who cannot buy American for political or financial reasons.

Now, the question is whether this "export" version will be as capable as the F-35 or not...
 

AprilLyrics

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Yes. It is something that can be customised by the client. So, this offers it a better option to clients who cannot buy American for political or financial reasons.

Now, the question is whether this "export" version will be as capable as the F-35 or not...
well,comparing it with F35 can be interesting while not necessary.i dont think they could meet in war.for china,we use J20 to counter F35.for other clients of J31,they wont be faced with F35,too.
 

p2prada

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well,comparing it with F35 can be interesting while not necessary.i dont think they could meet in war.for china,we use J20 to counter F35.for other clients of J31,they wont be faced with F35,too.
Hehe! Here is the catch.

Export J-31 to PAF. IN chooses F-35 during the N-MRCA competition. So, the differences between the two platforms will be crucial here.

It is yet to be seen which countries will the JF-17 and J-10 be exported to. You can say these countries will be future buyers of J-31.

For eg: If Egypt buys J-31, then F-35 becomes the automatic competitor from Israel.

Apart from these two, I can't think of any other F-35/J-31 showdown. Maybe Syria/Israel too.
 

AprilLyrics

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Hehe! Here is the catch.

Export J-31 to PAF. IN chooses F-35 during the N-MRCA competition. So, the differences between the two platforms will be crucial here.

It is yet to be seen which countries will the JF-17 and J-10 be exported to. You can say these countries will be future buyers of J-31.

For eg: If Egypt buys J-31, then F-35 becomes the automatic competitor from Israel.

Apart from these two, I can't think of any other F-35/J-31 showdown. Maybe Syria/Israel too.
i dont think India would buy F35.you already have T50,AMCA,MRCA.will u buy them all?even if you buy F35,probably you would use T50 rather than F35 to deal with J31
but i didnt thought of Egypt.you are more optimistic than me on its selling
 

GromHellscream

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A mid-sized stealth fighter with two mid-thrust engines is not a good idea at all.

Also it's very strange that India, Korea, Japan and SAC all want to develop this kind of fighter at the very beginning.

The cost will not be reduced too much by developing it a mid-sized one, cause the cost of 5th gen is mainly decided by its electronic systems (both hardware and software), not the body structure and engines.

It will lose too much capabilities while only saving a little money.

F35A is a bomb truck with the best electronic systems, long-legged, less agile, no supercruise.

J31 might be a point-defence fighter with fairly good electronic systems, short-legged, more agile, no supercruise.
Even the engines of J31 provide it the potential of supercruise, it will make no sense considering the limited oil being carried.

If someone want a multi-role AMF with all 4S, it's just unrealistic under current technologies.
 

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