Italy will send Marines Back to India for Trial

drkrn

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Sir do you have any website link for this?
i am sorry
i couldn't get any
probably those statements are removed from internet or i couldn't find it.

nevertheless these are statements of a minister of italy then..when asked him again why italy has to send back marines he said they couldn't risk an international isolation
 

drkrn

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That's what I was referring to when following the whole marines' case. I was surprised as to why Italy issued that statement considering that we never had any colonial era animosity with them (which is being duly compensated post-independence).



Ain't Madam G proof enough of that? :D
italy once used to be one of the most powerful economies head to head with other european states.seem they are still in illusion of their supremacy
 

LurkerBaba

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I asked management forum to be able to post links and images.
If approved I will send all links and images needed to support what I say.
You need to make 10 posts (which you have) before you can post links
 

Grifo

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You need to make 10 posts (which you have) before you can post links

Thank you very much, I did not know

This is the report of Enrica Lexie (the notes I put myself)
http://rapidshare.com/files/2067233567/cap01.JPG

This is the mail sent by the Coast Guard
http://rapidshare.com/files/3074803787/cap03.JPG

This is the mail were the Enrica Lexie communicates to go to Cochin
http://rapidshare.com/files/4164880849/cap04.JPG

It is clear that there was no escape and no hunting. The story has been romanticized.
 

Grifo

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Verify what the witnesses said.

Second statement to The Hindu, 17/02/2012 - we were 14 nm off the coast in front Allepey. The proof is that cell phones were taking. We were in territorial waters.
http://rapidshare.com/files/1849269463/the_hindu_170212.pdf

Third statement to Deccan Chronicle, 04/03/2012 - We were off Cherthala, about 35 km south of Chokin. (about 40 km north of Lexie)
http://rapidshare.com/files/3996868119/Deccan_Chronicle_040312.pdf

Fourth statement on "OGGI" (Italian newspaper), 21/03/2012 - We were at 20.5 miles from the coast, in front of Kollam. (about 50 km south of Lexie) (he never goes to sign, chases her all over Indian Ocean)
http://rapidshare.com/files/3207930109/oggi_210312.JPG

This image shows these three positions. In front of Allepey, facing Chertala, facing Kollam, always at 16:00 IST. The yellow signal indicates the position of Enrica Lexie at 16:00 IST. You can go on Google Earth and check the positions.
http://rapidshare.com/files/911215484/posizioni5.JPG

First statement, about 23:00 IST, on landing, Mr. Freddy Bosco owner of St. Antony: When it was around 9:30 PM, I heard a huge noise!
(I did translate from 4 different people native language Malayalam, the Italian television RAI 1 have been translated and finally a few weeks ago Mr. Bosco has admitted to the ANSA agency in New Delhi have said "9:30", but does not know explain why)
http://rapidshare.com/files/2524225758/neendakara01.JPG

In this picture you see Mr. Bosco, who speaks in front of cameras and a graduate of the Maritime Police Station of Neendakara, which will make the FIR where it is written that St. Antony was struck at 16:00 PM
http://rapidshare.com/files/3423469394/neendakara02.JPG

According to the statement "9:30 PM" the timing of events is this, and you understand where it may have been made the mistake of evaluation. But that had to be corrected by calling into port also the Olympic Flair. They would come out the Contractors, weapons and rockets.
http://rapidshare.com/files/1149769880/timing.JPG

- I heard a huge noise! - This may be "the huge noise," the hand-rockets used by Contractors of Diaplous, which had embarked (for one year was denied) on the Greek tanker Olympic Flair, who denounces a pirate attack on the same day, the same area at 22:20 IST (22:20 IST is the time at which it sends the complaint)
http://rapidshare.com/files/340120798/razzi_greci.jpg

Here you can watch movies where the Contractors Diaplous use the rockets.
The rockets are used just because they make a huge noise and frighten people.
DIAPLOUS Maritime Services

In this article in The Hindu, 08/03/2012 (twenty days after) we have the testimony of another accident, still ahead of Kollam, in which a tanker also shoots with "ball of fire" (still the rockets) against two Indian vessels, fortunately without casualties .
http://rapidshare.com/files/4284285456/the_hindu_080312.pdf

Now everything should be clearer.
 
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drkrn

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Thank you very much, I did not know

This is the report of Enrica Lexie (the notes I put myself)
http://rapidshare.com/files/2067233567/cap01.JPG

This is the mail sent by the Coast Guard
http://rapidshare.com/files/3074803787/cap03.JPG

This is the mail were the Enrica Lexie communicates to go to Cochin
http://rapidshare.com/files/4164880849/cap04.JPG

It is clear that there was no escape and no hunting. The story has been romanticized.
thanks for posts.will cross check them
 

drkrn

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Thank you very much, I did not know

This is the report of Enrica Lexie (the notes I put myself)
http://rapidshare.com/files/2067233567/cap01.JPG

This is the mail sent by the Coast Guard
http://rapidshare.com/files/3074803787/cap03.JPG

This is the mail were the Enrica Lexie communicates to go to Cochin
http://rapidshare.com/files/4164880849/cap04.JPG

It is clear that there was no escape and no hunting. The story has been romanticized.
1.definitely unbelievable.the captain of ship said that the boat with 6 people looked un-armed now the mail shows that they are armed.

"It has been reported to this Directorate that the Italian flagged MV Enrica Lexie, resorted to firing on an Indian fishing vessel in position 09 20N 075 52E"

looks like made up one.

2.the second jpg is a mail sent by marine rescue center a branch of indian coast guard not indian coast guard itself.their purpose is to help/rescue ships in distress,dangers.
probably someone on your side might have informed them as a pirate attack so they replied you.nothing much

3.cap04jpg.
i didn't find anything special about this too

chronology of events by your points

IST
4.00 pm-suspicion of pirate attack
4.06 pm-mrcc contacted ship
4.17 pm-ship mailed that it will be moving to cochin

instead it didn't go to cochin,it moved into international waters.just posting 3 mails which might be authentic or not doesn't make what happened a story which is romanticized

in this day of technological world its not that difficult to produce these kind of mails.these can't be taken as authentic
 

drkrn

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Verify what the witnesses said.

Second statement to The Hindu, 17/02/2012 - we were 14 nm off the coast in front Allepey. The proof is that cell phones were taking. We were in territorial waters.
http://rapidshare.com/files/1849269463/the_hindu_170212.pdf

Third statement to Deccan Chronicle, 04/03/2012 - We were off Cherthala, about 35 km south of Chokin. (about 40 km north of Lexie)
http://rapidshare.com/files/3996868119/Deccan_Chronicle_040312.pdf

Fourth statement on "OGGI" (Italian newspaper), 21/03/2012 - We were at 20.5 miles from the coast, in front of Kollam. (about 50 km south of Lexie) (he never goes to sign, chases her all over Indian Ocean)
http://rapidshare.com/files/3207930109/oggi_210312.JPG

This image shows these three positions. In front of Allepey, facing Chertala, facing Kollam, always at 16:00 IST. The yellow signal indicates the position of Enrica Lexie at 16:00 IST. You can go on Google Earth and check the positions.
http://rapidshare.com/files/911215484/posizioni5.JPG

First statement, about 23:00 IST, on landing, Mr. Freddy Bosco owner of St. Antony: When it was around 9:30 PM, I heard a huge noise!
(I did translate from 4 different people native language Malayalam, the Italian television RAI 1 have been translated and finally a few weeks ago Mr. Bosco has admitted to the ANSA agency in New Delhi have said "9:30", but does not know explain why)
http://rapidshare.com/files/2524225758/neendakara01.JPG

In this picture you see Mr. Bosco, who speaks in front of cameras and a graduate of the Maritime Police Station of Neendakara, which will make the FIR where it is written that St. Antony was struck at 16:00 PM
http://rapidshare.com/files/3423469394/neendakara02.JPG

According to the statement "9:30 PM" the timing of events is this, and you understand where it may have been made the mistake of evaluation. But that had to be corrected by calling into port also the Olympic Flair. They would come out the Contractors, weapons and rockets.
http://rapidshare.com/files/1149769880/timing.JPG

- I heard a huge noise! - This may be "the huge noise," the hand-rockets used by Contractors of Diaplous, which had embarked (for one year was denied) on the Greek tanker Olympic Flair, who denounces a pirate attack on the same day, the same area at 22:20 IST (22:20 IST is the time at which it sends the complaint)
http://rapidshare.com/files/340120798/razzi_greci.jpg

Here you can watch movies where the Contractors Diaplous use the rockets.
The rockets are used just because they make a huge noise and frighten people.
DIAPLOUS Maritime Services

In this article in The Hindu, 08/03/2012 (twenty days after) we have the testimony of another accident, still ahead of Kollam, in which a tanker also shoots with "ball of fire" (still the rockets) against two Indian vessels, fortunately without casualties .
http://rapidshare.com/files/4284285456/the_hindu_080312.pdf

Now everything should be clearer.
2nd- statement of witness.we are 14nm of alleppey.can be a possibility because incident occurred 20.5 nm to cochin. total of around 35 nm=63 kms taking from alleppy-scene of crime- cochin
direct distance is 50 kms from alleppey to cochin.
so more or less witness is coherent about his location and matches with my points.

the new point for me here is
"The fact that we could establish range on a mobile phone showed that we were well within territorial waters, he said.
He soon informed the crew of an associate fishing boat about the development and they in turn informed the Coast
Guard. Freddy said the ship from which they were fired was not sailing in the prescribed shipping channel but
beyond east of the channel."

another act of violation from ship

3rd-he said they were off to sea from a position 35 km south of kochi,charthela coast.so whats your point here.look on google maps.this too is near scene of crime
matches my points
he saw few tankers going south.again your point??

4th-italian language.the news says quarter past 4 in afternoon again my points here

5th- so even your jpg image shows that italian ship is 20 nm from coast.but why did you post 3 flags on image i didn't get the point

1st-what nonsense.you have posted in 2nd one where on board crew called the incident to occur at around 4.15pm even the italian paper quotes similarly
should have been a translation error

[- I heard a huge noise! - This may be "the huge noise," the hand-rockets used by Contractors of Diaplous, which had embarked (for one year was denied) on the Greek tanker Olympic Flair, who denounces a pirate attack on the same day, the same area at 22:20 IST (22:20 IST is the time at which it sends the complaint) ]

the last but one pdf-a detailed one .will post my comments after reading

last one-look how that ship responded by firing a warning shot.making more sound to threaten the ship rather than to shoot- no casualties
but the coast guard denies firing of bullets

everything is crystal clear from beginning itself
 

Grifo

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2nd- statement of witness.
2nd- statement of witness.we are 14nm of alleppey.can be a possibility because incident occurred 20.5 nm to cochin. total of around 35 nm=63 kms taking from alleppy-scene of crime- cochin direct distance is 50 kms from alleppey to cochin. so more or less witness is coherent about his location and matches with my points.

We can argue the position that we like, but in the process is important that witnesses indicate various position. Even the relative position to "9:30 PM" would still be different, in a radius of 12 nm from Neendakara (1.5 hours x 8 kts).
It is not credible that people who lived for years on that area of the sea does not know if it's in front of Chertala, in front of Allepey or in front of Kollam.
I in order to acquit the Italian marines do not have to find the truth (this is for the court), but I have to prove that the allegations have no evidence.
The witnesses are unreliable, their testimony at the trial is zero


the new point for me here is "The fact that we could establish range on a mobile phone showed that we were well within territorial waters, he said.
He soon informed the crew of an associate fishing boat about the development and they in turn informed the Coast Guard. Freddy said the ship from which they were fired was not sailing in the prescribed shipping channel but beyond east of the channel."
another act of violation from ship


Of course, but committed by whom? Even the Supreme Court says that Enrica Lexie was 20.5 nm from the coast, not to 14 nm.


3rd-he said they were off to sea from a position 35 km south of kochi,charthela coast.so whats your point here.look on google maps.this too is near scene of crime matches my points

You use Google Earth, not Google Maps. Google Earth allows you to enter positions such as geographical location and has many features to measure angles and distances.
If St. Antony was 35 km south of Cochin, in front Cherthala, had opened up the Enrica Lexie 30 nm away off the coast, at 18:00 IST.


he saw few tankers going south.again your point??

Mr. Freddy declares to the Deccan Chronicle, on 04/03/2012:
- At some distance I could see four huge tanker swimming past, towards the south, but did not pay much heed.
Mr. Bosco refers to the four suspicious vessels (Enrica Lexie, Ocean Breeze, Victoria Kamome and "Giovanni") on which the Coast Guard would investigate in relation to the incident, at 18:25 IST before leaving for the hunt.
But Mr. Woods may not have seen the four "huge tanker"
- With respect to the point that indicates (35 km south of Chochin, front Cherthala) the Enrica Lexie is at 16:00 IST, 28 nm south (50 km). And so he could not see her.

Writes the Coast Guard (Journal of June 2012)

At about 1825 h on 15 Feb 12, MRCC(MB) analysed space based AIS (AIS-SB) plot and identified four probable merchant ships which could have transited from the incident position
http://rapidshare.com/files/104487149/guardia_costiera.JPG

But we can all see AIS data on one of the many specialized sites.
- Ocean Breeze and Kamome Victoria, heading south, at 18:25 they were already almost in Sri Lanka. (had passed in front of Neendakara at 9:30 AM IST)
- The "Giovanni" was at 18:25 in front of Cochin, but 800 km off in the middle of the Arabian Sea.
http://rapidshare.com/files/941047875/posizioni9.JPG
You go on one of many websites that specialize on the maritime traffic and controls.

And then Mr. Bosco may not have seen any "huge tanker" Why were not there.
This, in addition to disqualify Mr. Bosco still as a witness, is also a response to the fact that the escape and hunting there have never been.


5th- so even your jpg image shows that italian ship is 20 nm from coast.but why did you post 3 flags on image i didn't get the point

Why the three flags are three different positions in three declarations of St. Antony sailors, February 17, March 4 and March 21. There is not the relative position at 9:30 PM because Mr. Bosco not says.
The position of Enrica Lexie never changes.


last one-look how that ship responded by firing a warning shot.making more sound to threaten the ship rather than to shoot- no casualties
but the coast guard denies firing of bullets
everything is crystal clear from beginning itself


I am happy that there were no victims. It 'obvious that on March 8, someone shot the same rockets that on the evening of February 15 scared Mr. Bosco.
 

sayareakd

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you guys should check

OPERATED FOR COMMERCIAL PURPOSES

Article27

Criminal jurisdiction on board a foreign ship

1. The criminal jurisdiction of the coastal State should not be exercised on board a foreign ship passing through the territorial sea to arrest any person or to conduct any investigation in connection with any crime committed on board the ship during its passage, save only in the following cases:

(a) if the consequences of the crime extend to the coastal State;

(b) if the crime is of a kind to disturb the peace of the country or the good order of the territorial sea;

(c) if the assistance of the local authorities has been requested by the master of the ship or by a diplomatic agent or consular officer of the flag State; or

(d) if such measures are necessary for the suppression of illicit traffic in narcotic drugs or psychotropic substances.

2. The above provisions do not affect the right of the coastal State to take any steps authorized by its laws for the purpose of an arrest or investigation on board a foreign ship passing through the territorial sea after leaving internal waters.

3. In the cases provided for in paragraphs 1 and 2, the coastal State shall, if the master so requests, notify a diplomatic agent or consular officer of the flag State before taking any steps, and shall facilitate contact between such agent or officer and the ship's crew. In cases of emergency this notification may be communicated while the measures are being taken.

4. In considering whether or in what manner an arrest should be made, the local authorities shall have due regard to the interests of navigation.

5. Except as provided in Part XII or with respect to violations of laws and regulations adopted in accordance with Part V, the coastal State may not take any steps on board a foreign ship passing through the territorial sea to arrest any person or to conduct any investigation in connection with any crime committed before the ship entered the territorial sea, if the ship, proceeding from a foreign port, is only passing through the territorial sea without entering internal waters.
UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF THE SEA

Local Penal Law (IPC) says

Central Government Act
Section 4 in The Indian Penal Code, 1860
4. 8[ Extension of Code to extra- territorial offences.-- The provisions of this Code apply also to any offence committed by--
(1) 9[ any citizen of India in any place without and beyond India;
(2) any person on any ship or aircraft registered in India wherever it may be.]
Section 4 in The Indian Penal Code, 1860

and Hon'ble Supreme Court of India based on above has already decided that India has Jurisdiction to entertain criminal case.
 

tramp

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Hey, can somebody change the thread title to something like "Italy will not send Marines witnesses to India'.
 

Grifo

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in this day of technological world its not that difficult to produce these kind of mails.these can't be taken as authentic
Send the link to the Coast Guard and ask if the mail is true or false.

You may not argue that from 20:45 escorting the ship to the port, and at 21:36 you ask to go to port. It is absurd.

Trial there must be no contradictions, the trial lives only certainty.
 

drkrn

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Send the link to the Coast Guard and ask if the mail is true or false.

You may not argue that from 20:45 escorting the ship to the port, and at 21:36 you ask to go to port. It is absurd.

Trial there must be no contradictions, the trial lives only certainty.
first,why should i?
second as the matter is sub-judice i doubt that coast guard will comment on such.
 

Grifo

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first,why should i?
second as the matter is sub-judice i doubt that coast guard will comment on such.

1) because this is not just a trial in India, but a trial on the web. Do not just say who is guilty, you must prove that he is guilty.
International public opinion will give his judgment and I will be on the network for twenty years to explain things. How do I here, I've already prepared everything.
I also commissioned an Indian lawyer to go to court, the day that begins the trial, to take all the cards (autopsy, ballistics, AIS data etc, not the chatter of Mr. Bosco).
They may deny it, but will have to write it.

2) I have the same problem with the Italian judicial authorities. I asked three months ago to have the radar recordings of Lexie (they have them, they told the press 03.20.2013). There is evidence that the boat was not the St. Antony, I explained. But still not decided.
Not this well: if you have items to defense can not get them to leave in the drawer, and leave convict two innocent men. The Italian public opinion will not be happy about that.
And they know that I know the craft.
http://rapidshare.com/files/3483291831/ioedc9.jpg

We should begin to discuss the ballistic investigation, do not you think?
 

drkrn

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1) because this is not just a trial in India, but a trial on the web. Do not just say who is guilty, you must prove that he is guilty.
International public opinion will give his judgment and I will be on the network for twenty years to explain things. How do I here, I've already prepared everything.
I also commissioned an Indian lawyer to go to court, the day that begins the trial, to take all the cards (autopsy, ballistics, AIS data etc, not the chatter of Mr. Bosco).
They may deny it, but will have to write it.

2) I have the same problem with the Italian judicial authorities. I asked three months ago to have the radar recordings of Lexie (they have them, they told the press 03.20.2013). There is evidence that the boat was not the St. Antony, I explained. But still not decided.
Not this well: if you have items to defense can not get them to leave in the drawer, and leave convict two innocent men. The Italian public opinion will not be happy about that.
And they know that I know the craft.
http://rapidshare.com/files/3483291831/ioedc9.jpg

We should begin to discuss the ballistic investigation, do not you think?
1.the accused accepted the shooting
2.had there been an evidence that the ship is not antony,why is italian govt not siding your view?
 

Grifo

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1.the accused accepted the shooting
2.had there been an evidence that the ship is not antony,why is italian govt not siding your view?

The defendants say they have shot in the water, on a boat that was not the St. Antony, who came from the rigth-bow, and that was on a collision course.
To be on a collision course from 5km you have to drive the boat on a collision course, and I will see this on the radar recordings. But they have to open the drawer.
http://rapidshare.com/files/3446031397/dc93d4.gif


Why are imbeciles, and they believe they can save both ways. Pompous imbeciles.

We want to talk about autopsy and ballistics?
 

drkrn

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The defendants say they have shot in the water, on a boat that was not the St. Antony, who came from the rigth-bow, and that was on a collision course.
To be on a collision course from 5km you have to drive the boat on a collision course, and I will see this on the radar recordings. But they have to open the drawer.
http://rapidshare.com/files/3446031397/dc93d4.gif


Why are imbeciles, and they believe they can save both ways. Pompous imbeciles.

We want to talk about autopsy and ballistics?
.had there been an evidence that the ship is not antony,why is italian govt not siding your view?

are you calling your gov imbeciles??
 

sayareakd

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why you guys discussing the distance or location of ship ?

What should be discussed is why unarmed innocent fishermen were killed by Italian marines without any provocation ? and top of that why Italian are acting as if nothing has happen and why they are not cooperating in Investigation and trial ?

May be Indian Court will ask hard way to Italians to cooperate in the matter.
 

drkrn

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why you guys discussing the distance or location of ship ?

What should be discussed is why unarmed innocent fishermen were killed by Italian marines without any provocation ? and top of that why Italian are acting as if nothing has happen and why they are not cooperating in Investigation and trial ?

May be Indian Court will ask hard way to Italians to cooperate in the matter.
@Grifo says they were not killed by italians and to support his view he is presenting some points.
 
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