Italy will send Marines Back to India for Trial

Grifo

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Things which surely go against the marines

1.Running away from scene of incident-being caught on run

2.Refusing to return back to country -where their credibility have gone down.ruling out any chance for decreasing the term of punishment for such persons

both are of serious in nature

apart from which pls look into these
I had documents contrary to this hypothesis.

About three months ago an Italian journalist in a television spoke ill of the master of Enrica Lexie Cap Vitelli and his decision to go to the port of Cochin.

The owner of Enrica Lexie was offended and instructed his lawyer to ask for a correction. The lawyer wrote to the journalist, and to give more strength to his request attaching two e-mails, not realizing the importance of the same.
- The first email was the request of the Coast Guard to return to Cochin
- The second email was the communication of the Com Vitelli to owner, who had turned and directing to Cochin.

The Italian journalist sent me everything. I know well the story and I realized that those two e-mails changed the whole scene.

The Coast Guard (from: icgmrcc "at" mtnl.net.in CC "DELHI HEADQUARTERS ...) asks politely (Dear Master...) to go to Cochin at 9:36 PM IST (4:06 PM UTC)
He asked to call (91 484 2217 164 and 2218969) and communicate ETA (Estimated Time of Arrival)

After only 11 minutes (9:47 PM IST (4:17 PM UTC) the Com Vitelli communicates to its owner, to UKMTO and MSCHOA, CC "D'Amato SAFETY, have changed course and headed to stay in Cochin.

Is that lawyers and journalists do not understand utc or IST times, but is clear that there was no escape and no hunting, like months instead have written to the Italian and Indians newspaper, indeed, the media all over the world.
It denies the same mail of Coast Guard. It is in my possession legitimate and verifiable.
If I could I would post on the forum, but who wants copies just ask.

So I think that it is to review the whole story.
 
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drkrn

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I had documents contrary to this hypothesis.

About three months ago an Italian journalist in a television spoke ill of the master of Enrica Lexie Cap Vitelli and his decision to go to the port of Cochin.

The owner of Enrica Lexie was offended and instructed his lawyer to ask for a correction. The lawyer wrote to the journalist, and to give more strength to his request attaching two e-mails, not realizing the importance of the same.
- The first email was the request of the Coast Guard to return to Cochin
- The second email was the communication of the Com Vitelli to owner, who had turned and directing to Cochin.

The Italian journalist sent me everything. I know well the story and I realized that those two e-mails changed the whole scene.

The Coast Guard (from: icgmrcc "at" mtnl.net.in CC "DELHI HEADQUARTERS ...) asks politely (Dear Master...) to go to Cochin at 9:36 PM IST (4:06 PM UTC)
He asked to call (91 484 2217 164 and 2218969) and communicate ETA (Estimated Time of Arrival)

After only 11 minutes (9:47 PM IST (4:17 PM UTC) the Com Vitelli communicates to its owner, to UKMTO and MSCHOA, CC "D'Amato SAFETY, have changed course and headed to stay in Cochin.

Is that lawyers and journalists do not understand utc or IST times, but is clear that there was no escape and no hunting, like months instead have written to the Italian and Indians newspaper, indeed, the media all over the world.
It denies the same mail of Coast Guard. It is in my possession legitimate and verifiable.
If I could I would post on the forum, but who wants copies just ask.

So I think that it is to review the whole story.
There are a lot of things you need to clarify here..

you said that its a wrong decision to go back to port of cochin on part of both owner and captain.first the owner is not at the scene and is always ships captain's decision
here the captain has no other decision except to surrender

"The Indian Coast Guard stated that while it was accepted procedure to report piracy events or suspicious activities immediately to Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre (MRCC), the Enrica Lexie continued sailing for 70 km on its route to Egypt without reporting the incident. The ship reported the shooting only when contacted by the Coast Guard about two and a half hours after the incident, upon which they were asked to proceed to Kochi."

clearly the ships captain intentionally didn't report and is on the run from indian waters into international waters.

"The Indian Directorate General of Shipping stated: "It has been reported to this Directorate that the Italian flagged MV Enrica Lexie, resorted to firing on an Indian fishing vessel in position 09 20N 075 52E (heading 345 speed 14 kts) at 1700 Hrs on 15th February 2012."

where does this 9.46 pm come from??.the incident happened in broad daylight

"After the incident, the Enrica Lexie continued sailing for almost three hours and covered a distance of 39 NM from the original position."

1."intentional" non compliance to rules of the land
2.intentional non-reporting of the incident to responsible authorities

you say that the vessel is not on the run,but there is a dornier aircraft launched for search along with two offshore patrol vessels.what does it say??hmm

the vessel might have changed course after 11 minutes after being stopped by indian cost guard,but there is actually 3 hour time gap from incident to arrest.

probably media from all over "italy" is airing such news,but indeed its a "ship hunt"

i do not understand "e-mail of coast guard".please clarify
do you mean that coast guard sent an e-mail before arrest or after?never heard our police sending e-mails to accused :confused:.there will only be an official document from court for arrest,at max

e-mails in your possession might be having no value at all,or else it would have been used as a strong deterrent in court already

pls post their content if possible.i am amazed to hear about our police sending e-mails




so regarding my second point-not sending marines back to the country,and italian ambassador losing his credibility there is a no chance from side of court to reduce the intensity of punishment or giving importance to their statements.

i forgot the legal term used for such persons.probably@sayakareed may help me.just google about indian laws.
 

drkrn

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[The Admiral Piroli report looks at the state of the Indian investigation to 11/5/2012, and is disclosed in part by the Italian newspaper La Repubblica on 06/04/2013.
I asked the report Piroli the Italian navy, and they replied that they have not (Piroli is the second in a position in the Navy). In April 2013 the Italian Foreign Minister Giulio Terzi said on television that he had never received ... Italian mysteries.
It is not clear why a document went public on a government newspaper must be kept secret. However, I can show you many pictures of fishing boats very similar to St. Antony.
Instead, it is very interesting that the ballistics of Kerala is said to have fired the gun with the serial number of the marines Andronico and Voglino, not those of the two accused Girone and Latorre.
Can you give me an opinion on this? How is this possible? ]

those are your persons statements.if such documents went into public media its not their fault.its your personal enquiry-it has no value in indian courts except the judge may consider contents of it under his jurisdiction/discretion.

again [On 6 April 2013, a military investigation report of the Enrica Lexie shooting was leaked to the media in Italy. The report compiled by Rear Admiral Alessandro Piroli contains facts-based opinions of the five-member team of Italian military investigation officials who arrived in India immediately after the Enrica Lexie shooting incident. The Italian team composed of Major General Paolo Romano, Admiral Alessandro Piroli, Major Luca Flebus, Major Paolo Fratini and Commander Geam Paul, reported their findings to the military tribunal in Rome. The Alessandro Piroli investigative dossier was formally remitted to the Italian government on 11 May 2012.
Appearing in In Onda programme aired on Italian television channel La 7, the former Italian Foreign Minister Giulio Terzi acknowledged the existence of the Alessandro Piroli investigative dossier adding that he "did not know in detail the report" but conceded that "We knew that there was a high probability, but not absolute certainty, that the guns used in the murder belonged to soldiers on Enrica Lexie."]

[Italian media questioned the intentions of the Mario Monti Government in keeping the report secret and expressed surprise that salient facts uncovered by the military investigators have been shielded from public scrutiny. The Italian Government was severely criticized for allowing controversies to pollute the general public's understanding of the happenings on board the ENRICA LEXIE oil tanker despite the findings of the Rear Admiral Alessandro Piroli's report about the time & location of the incident as well as the chronology of events and the Italian military opinion on the ballistic & forensic examination of the weapons and ammunition which were involved in the incident. The leaked portions of the Alessandro Piroli report have already set to rest numerous speculative controversies that have surrounded the shooting incident involving the VPD team of the Enrica Lexie.]


even though there are many similar vessels to antony what does it confer??
there is only one vessel similar to antony,i.e antony itself at the scene .to support my view its easy as all those ships are given individual identity for any help from authorities,any social welfare programmes by the local govt

poor defence

the ballistic reports confirm that guns belong to members of ship.and two members in that ship admitted to shooting.please read again carefully.the confirmation of the report is given by two officers of ship that the guns belong to accused and bullets recovered from dead bodies belong to those two accused.



[The accident at the Enrica Lexie is 20.5 nautical miles from the coast, at 16/16: 30 IST (4/4: 30 PM IST), and in a specific geographical location also accepted by the Indian authorities.
The position of the vessel St. Antony do not know, because the fishermen witness positions and times always different
- At 9:30 PM IST upon landing at Neendakara (Mr. Freddy Bosco, front of the media and a policeman )
- At "Evening" on 17/2/2012 in The Hindu. At 14 nm off Alappuza, the evidence is that cell phones were taking (says Mr. Clemens, all fishermen present)
- At 4:00 PM IST on 04/03/2012 to Deccan Chronicle, "off Cherthala coast" (in this position they are about 40km north of Enrica Lexie) (Mr. Freddy Bosco)
- At 4:15 PM IST 21/3/2012 to the "Oggi" (Italian newspaper), 20.5 nm off Kollam (in this position they are about 50km south of Enrica Lexie) (all fishermen)
]

the local news agencies always in a hurry to report the news first,released the news without verifying with authorities probably.they are not official statements.not of much value

[The case was initially tried in Kerala.] according to our constitution-law and order of a state is sole responsibility of state,thats why initial court proceedings happened in kerala.shifted to supreme court probably at request of italian govt.


[We only found a difference between the Italian and the Indian judicial system.
In Italy is not at the discretion of the judge. During the preliminary investigation the prosecutor may appoint its own experts and technical investigations to be carried out, but with the prohibition of carrying out acts unrepeatable. When was an offense any expert's report ordered by a court must have present the experts appointed by the judge together with those of the defense and the victim. I myself in various tasks I have covered all the roles, the contradiction between the parties is also and mainly on technical analysis. For example a few weeks ago in a serious car accident to examine a bus plunged off a bridge, the judge appointed three experts, and the investigates owner of the bus one expert, and together they examined the bus producing two separate reports.
So no offense, only the evidence of two different legal systems. What for us is a defect of the rights of defense for you it is not.
Evidently in India the Judge has more power than in Italy.]

The law of the land rules.

i don't know anything about italy, but here the judgement from supreme court is final,courts even have the authority to order the parliament to act according to its orders
 

drkrn

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Four Italian marines refuse to come to India for deposition - Times Of India

NEW DELHI: Four Italian marines, who were witness to the killing of fishermen off Kerala coast allegedly by two of their colleagues, have refused to come to India for deposing as witness, which will further delay the case.

The four marines, who were summoned by the National Investigation Agency, were onboard Italian vessel 'Enrica Lexie' and were present at the spot when their colleagues Massimiliano Latorre and Salvatore Girone allegedly shot dead two fishermen on February 15, 2012.
 

Grifo

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There are a lot of things you need to clarify here..
.
you said that its a wrong decision to go back to port of cochin on part of both owner and captain.first the owner is not at the scene and is always ships captain's decision
here the captain has no other decision except to surrender


In fact, after only 11 minutes from the mail of the Coast Guard the master announced that he had tacked to Cochin. Dear master...


"The Indian Coast Guard stated that while it was accepted procedure to report piracy events or suspicious activities immediately to Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre (MRCC), the Enrica Lexie continued sailing for 70 km on its route to Egypt without reporting the incident. The ship reported the shooting only when contacted by the Coast Guard about two and a half hours after the incident, upon which they were asked to proceed to Kochi."

This is not accurate.
- Accident 16:00 IST (4:00 PM), end accident at 16:30 IST (4:30 PM), output of the men from the citadel 17:00 IST (5:00 PM)
- Report of the commander by e-mail at 19:16 IST (7:16 PM IST - 13:46 UTC) addressed to owner (D'amato Safety), to MSCHOA, UKMTO and a war ship Grecale (Italian military ship at about 1.000 km )
The report is also written that "We contact owner, and sent the SSAS alert."
SSAS is an automatic signal warning for piracy and terrorism, and the Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre (MRCC) received it in real time, at 4:00 PM IST
I have the original copy of this report.

clearly the ships captain intentionally didn't report and is on the run from indian waters into international waters.
"The Indian Directorate General of Shipping stated: "It has been reported to this Directorate that the Italian flagged MV Enrica Lexie, resorted to firing on an Indian fishing vessel in position 09 20N 075 52E (heading 345 speed 14 kts) at 1700 Hrs on 15th February 2012."

where does this 9.46 pm come from??.the incident happened in broad daylight


Yes, in broad daylight. I can not do anything, the email of the Coast Guard that recalls the Enrica Lexie in the harbor is 21:36 IST, the turn towards Cochin has already occurred at 21:47 IST. I sent the email to the Prosecutor of Rome and I was questioned by the Carabinieri about it.
The documents are the lawyer of the owner and have been attached to a request for rectification, then have legal value. Am I not to have them made "‹"‹public but the reporter when he realized their importance.
This thing will disentangle to the lawyers in the process (if defense lawyers are paid by us to work, instead of doing nothing)


"After the incident, the Enrica Lexie continued sailing for almost three hours and covered a distance of 39 NM from the original position."

Not three hours, five and a half hours (from 16:00 to 21:36 IST), not 39 nm but 77 nm (14kts x 5.5). Three hours is the time when sending the report (from 16:00 to 19:16 IST)
So it can not be arrived at Cochin at 23:00 IST as claimed by the Indian authorities, but at least at 02 the next day February 16.

1."intentional" non compliance to rules of the land
2.intentional non-reporting of the incident to responsible authorities

No, the report was sent to UKMTO and MSCHOA, and by means of SSAS alert the MRCC was informed in real time.
The Enrica Lexie headed to Cochin soon as it was asked, at 21:36 IST.


you say that the vessel is not on the run,but there is a dornier aircraft launched for search along with two offshore patrol vessels.what does it say??hmm

I also believed in the hunt until I saw the email.


The italian witnesses have their mouths closed, I could not get a single word. There is some evidence against the hypothesis of the hunt.
the vessel might have changed course after 11 minutes after being stopped by indian cost guard,but there is actually 3 hour time gap from incident to arrest.


They are your hypotheses. I asked the prosecutor's office in Rome to examine the records radar. I am a specialist in this (for the investigation of aeronautical disasters). Still nothing.


probably media from all over "italy" is airing such news,but indeed its a "ship hunt"

Absolutely not. Speaks of innocence only on some minor newspapers and on the web. The major government's newspapers are silent or only shows the hypothesis of guilt. Unofficially, at who speak of innocence, it is recommended to shut up "for not peeve the Indians". I judge this shameful thing, and offensive for us and for you.


i do not understand "e-mail of coast guard".please clarify
do you mean that coast guard sent an e-mail before arrest or after?never heard our police sending e-mails to accused .there will only be an official document from court for arrest,at max

e-mails in your possession might be having no value at all,or else it would have been used as a strong deterrent in court already

Deterrent! Can I laugh? So far, the defense lawyers have not filed a single act in defense. Here we can not speak of Italian politics.

pls post their content if possible.i am amazed to hear about our police sending e-mails

Again, if you want I'll send you, it is not secret. I can not do anything from here, if you want to find you the way.
My account is not enabled for email, links or pictures.
 
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Grifo

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those are your persons statements.if such documents went into public media its not their fault.its your personal enquiry-it has no value in indian courts except the judge may consider contents of it under his jurisdiction/discretion.

is what I hope.

even though there are many similar vessels to antony what does it confer??
there is only one vessel similar to antony,i.e antony itself at the scene .to support my view its easy as all those ships are given individual identity for any help from authorities,any social welfare programmes by the local govt

poor defence

If I could analyze the radar recordings could demonstrate that the boat approaches the Lexie was not the St. Antony.
One of the elements is that the Italian witnesses according boat approaching from starboard bow, and then always shows the left side of the Enrica Lexie.
The shots on the St. Antony are just on the right side, the opposite side. And there is much more to see.
This is not matter of lawyers or judges, are technical analysis. Even God can say that 2+2 is different to 4.
If the prosecutor in rome let me analyze the radar recordings I can prove that the boat was not the St. Antony, I'm quite sure.

the ballistic reports confirm that guns belong to members of ship.and two members in that ship admitted to shooting.please read again carefully.the confirmation of the report is given by two officers of ship that the guns belong to accused and bullets recovered from dead bodies belong to those two accused.

The ballistic report is kept secret until now. We know what we read in the newspapers, not the ballistic report. The technical analysis of a process must be public, anyone who has to read. And what I read is to be verified.
- There is a probabilistic absurd. A Marine fires, misses the target, and puts a shot on a victim and a shot on the vessel. The other marine shoots, misses the target, and puts a shot on the other victim and a shot on the vessel. If they do it again for a thousand years could not do it again.
- Indian investigators accuse of murder marines Latorre and Girone, but the ballistic report says they fired their guns in each of the Marines Andronico and Voglino. Why?

The Italian marines have supplied each his own weapon, and use that. The guns do not exchange, the Beretta AR 70/90 in tilt and elevation adjustable sight, that every military adapts to himself.
Not there was excitement, because the boat was sighted at 2.8 nm (5km) with the radar, so they had plenty of time to prepare.
There was not intention to kill, because the Beretta AR 70/90 fires 11 rounds per second, and all were made in two seconds of fire. If there was a willingness to kill made a massacre.

the local news agencies always in a hurry to report the news first,released the news without verifying with authorities probably.they are not official statements.not of much value

This is not news agencies, but public statements made by the fishermen to the media, verifiable. All different in time and geographic location, and this never coinciding with the position of Enrica Lexie at the time of the accident.
You say that we have to ask the right version to the police? What, the n. 1, 2, 3 or 4? Or even a new one that tells us the police? I remind you that Mr. Freddy Bosco has confirmed a few weeks ago that he had said at the time of the landing at Neendakara, that he was shot at 9:30 PM (says he does not know why he said it!).
I found, four months ago, the video where he said 9:30 PM on landing.
The witnesses are unreliable, including the police officer of Neendakara, he hears 9:30 PM and writes on report 4:00 PM. Or was deaf?
 
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Grifo

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Four Italian marines refuse to come to India for deposition - Times Of India

NEW DELHI: Four Italian marines, who were witness to the killing of fishermen off Kerala coast allegedly by two of their colleagues, have refused to come to India for deposing as witness, which will further delay the case.

The four marines, who were summoned by the National Investigation Agency, were onboard Italian vessel 'Enrica Lexie' and were present at the spot when their colleagues Massimiliano Latorre and Salvatore Girone allegedly shot dead two fishermen on February 15, 2012.
The Italian government has decided to deny the return to India, not the Marines.

They thought that they would be arrested during the testimony, and then denied re-entry.
was offered to have them witness in the embassy in Rome, or by teleconference, but was refused.
Evidently the purpose was not the testimony
 

drkrn

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The Italian government has decided to deny the return to India, not the Marines.

They thought that they would be arrested during the testimony, and then denied re-entry.
was offered to have them witness in the embassy in Rome, or by teleconference, but was refused.
Evidently the purpose was not the testimony
what ever the reason might be,such decision taken by italian govt/soldiers means leaving the 2 sailors in indian custody for their fate.
till now there is no official comment from govt of italy,making it their personal decision not to testify.
there is no info that they wished to testify via video conference,embassy in rome
any links?


what will they do if red corner notice is issued,will this increase italian govt's prestige?
 

drkrn

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those are your persons statements.if such documents went into public media its not their fault.its your personal enquiry-it has no value in indian courts except the judge may consider contents of it under his jurisdiction/discretion.

is what I hope.

even though there are many similar vessels to antony what does it confer??
there is only one vessel similar to antony,i.e antony itself at the scene .to support my view its easy as all those ships are given individual identity for any help from authorities,any social welfare programmes by the local govt

poor defence

If I could analyze the radar recordings could demonstrate that the boat approaches the Lexie was not the St. Antony.
One of the elements is that the Italian witnesses according boat approaching from starboard bow, and then always shows the left side of the Enrica Lexie.
The shots on the St. Antony are just on the right side, the opposite side. And there is much more to see.
This is not matter of lawyers or judges, are technical analysis. Even God can say that 2+2 is different to 4.
If the prosecutor in rome let me analyze the radar recordings I can prove that the boat was not the St. Antony, I'm quite sure.

the ballistic reports confirm that guns belong to members of ship.and two members in that ship admitted to shooting.please read again carefully.the confirmation of the report is given by two officers of ship that the guns belong to accused and bullets recovered from dead bodies belong to those two accused.

The ballistic report is kept secret until now. We know what we read in the newspapers, not the ballistic report. The technical analysis of a process must be public, anyone who has to read. And what I read is to be verified.
- There is a probabilistic absurd. A Marine fires, misses the target, and puts a shot on a victim and a shot on the vessel. The other marine shoots, misses the target, and puts a shot on the other victim and a shot on the vessel. If they do it again for a thousand years could not do it again.
- Indian investigators accuse of murder marines Latorre and Girone, but the ballistic report says they fired their guns in each of the Marines Andronico and Voglino. Why?

The Italian marines have supplied each his own weapon, and use that. The guns do not exchange, the Beretta AR 70/90 in tilt and elevation adjustable sight, that every military adapts to himself.
Not there was excitement, because the boat was sighted at 2.8 nm (5km) with the radar, so they had plenty of time to prepare.
There was not intention to kill, because the Beretta AR 70/90 fires 11 rounds per second, and all were made in two seconds of fire. If there was a willingness to kill made a massacre.

the local news agencies always in a hurry to report the news first,released the news without verifying with authorities probably.they are not official statements.not of much value

This is not news agencies, but public statements made by the fishermen to the media, verifiable. All different in time and geographic location, and this never coinciding with the position of Enrica Lexie at the time of the accident.
You say that we have to ask the right version to the police? What, the n. 1, 2, 3 or 4? Or even a new one that tells us the police? I remind you that Mr. Freddy Bosco has confirmed a few weeks ago that he had said at the time of the landing at Neendakara, that he was shot at 9:30 PM (says he does not know why he said it!).
I found, four months ago, the video where he said 9:30 PM on landing.
The witnesses are unreliable, including the police officer of Neendakara, he hears 9:30 PM and writes on report 4:00 PM. Or was deaf?
[If I could analyze the radar recordings could demonstrate that the boat approaches the Lexie was not the St. Antony.
One of the elements is that the Italian witnesses according boat approaching from starboard bow, and then always shows the left side of the Enrica Lexie.
The shots on the St. Antony are just on the right side, the opposite side. And there is much more to see.
This is not matter of lawyers or judges, are technical analysis. Even God can say that 2+2 is different to 4.
If the prosecutor in rome let me analyze the radar recordings I can prove that the boat was not the St. Antony, I'm quite sure.
]
by posting such comments ,you are understating the work done by your agencies.can't they be able to differentiate left to right?you may approach indian courts in person if you wish for defence.

[The ballistic report is kept secret until now. We know what we read in the newspapers, not the ballistic report. The technical analysis of a process must be public, anyone who has to read. And what I read is to be verified.
- There is a probabilistic absurd. A Marine fires, misses the target, and puts a shot on a victim and a shot on the vessel. The other marine shoots, misses the target, and puts a shot on the other victim and a shot on the vessel. If they do it again for a thousand years could not do it again.
- Indian investigators accuse of murder marines Latorre and Girone, but the ballistic report says they fired their guns in each of the Marines Andronico and Voglino. Why? ]

in indian judiciary you are not allowed to make your investigation reports to public,if done so its a crime.

thats why we call the persons accused not murdered.ballistic analysis only speaks about source of bullet,speed,direction,etc not the shooter.ballistic report said,guns and bullets of both italians matched with those found on dead bodies and the vessel.
they confessed the shooting,confirmed by the ship captain.

[The Italian marines have supplied each his own weapon, and use that. The guns do not exchange, the Beretta AR 70/90 in tilt and elevation adjustable sight, that every military adapts to himself.
Not there was excitement, because the boat was sighted at 2.8 nm (5km) with the radar, so they had plenty of time to prepare.
There was not intention to kill, because the Beretta AR 70/90 fires 11 rounds per second, and all were made in two seconds of fire. If there was a willingness to kill made a massacre.
]

by pointing out the boat was identified and sure it identified early,failure of the ship to competent authorities about a possible pirate attack,and start evasive maneuvers the captain is at fault.

when the shooting took place the boat is only hundred metres or so away from the vessel only making it an easy target.
Vice-Admiral K.N. Sushil, Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Southern Naval Command and Commander-in-Chief (Coastal Defence) of the Southern Zone, opined that the Italian marines erred in judgement :
"If they thought they were being chased by a pirate vessel, they should have carried out evasive manoeuvres to alter the course of the ship, as enunciated by the guidelines. If the skiff was still after them, they would've fired a few warning shots well above the bow of the pirate vessel to deter it. Unfortunately, they do not seem to have done any of this. The Italians are claiming that this was a successful anti-piracy operation, but it is crystal clear that the fishermen were unarmed and were not attempting to come alongside the tanker to board it. As the tanker crew claims to have been fired upon, I sent INS Kabra to ascertain if there were bullet marks on it. It went around the ship to find that there was none. I've also asked my men to verify the tanker's logbook to account for the number of rounds fired by the guards. This is to see if they had fired any warning shot at all. What are you talking about the fishing vessel giving you a chase when the maximum speed it can attain is just about eight knots?"[7]
how ever the ballistics recovered 15 bullet marks from the ship 2 from dead people.

[This is not news agencies, but public statements made by the fishermen to the media, verifiable. All different in time and geographic location, and this never coinciding with the position of Enrica Lexie at the time of the accident.
You say that we have to ask the right version to the police? What, the n. 1, 2, 3 or 4? Or even a new one that tells us the police? I remind you that Mr. Freddy Bosco has confirmed a few weeks ago that he had said at the time of the landing at Neendakara, that he was shot at 9:30 PM (says he does not know why he said it!).
I found, four months ago, the video where he said 9:30 PM on landing.
The witnesses are unreliable, including the police officer of Neendakara, he hears 9:30 PM and writes on report 4:00 PM. Or was deaf?]

very glad to see any links if you have any info that these are public statements given by fishermen in the scene of crime.
let me remind you there are some series of events i would like to add up for you.

had your version of shooting at 9.30pm IST been correct there has been a 3 hour delay in arresting the vessel with crew.taking it to 12.30pm.after which they are handed over to police for fir.Thats the time when FIR is lodged.
so FIR should be filed on next day early hours,not day before.
Just the fir itself is enough to prove it as even the president of india do not have authority to change what is written in a FIR

why you keep on posting comments with out proper sources/links.please post credible sources from next time
 

drkrn

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you said that its a wrong decision to go back to port of cochin on part of both owner and captain.first the owner is not at the scene and is always ships captain's decision
here the captain has no other decision except to surrender


In fact, after only 11 minutes from the mail of the Coast Guard the master announced that he had tacked to Cochin. Dear master...


"The Indian Coast Guard stated that while it was accepted procedure to report piracy events or suspicious activities immediately to Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre (MRCC), the Enrica Lexie continued sailing for 70 km on its route to Egypt without reporting the incident. The ship reported the shooting only when contacted by the Coast Guard about two and a half hours after the incident, upon which they were asked to proceed to Kochi."

This is not accurate.
- Accident 16:00 IST (4:00 PM), end accident at 16:30 IST (4:30 PM), output of the men from the citadel 17:00 IST (5:00 PM)
- Report of the commander by e-mail at 19:16 IST (7:16 PM IST - 13:46 UTC) addressed to owner (D'amato Safety), to MSCHOA, UKMTO and a war ship Grecale (Italian military ship at about 1.000 km )
The report is also written that "We contact owner, and sent the SSAS alert."
SSAS is an automatic signal warning for piracy and terrorism, and the Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre (MRCC) received it in real time, at 4:00 PM IST
I have the original copy of this report.

clearly the ships captain intentionally didn't report and is on the run from indian waters into international waters.
"The Indian Directorate General of Shipping stated: "It has been reported to this Directorate that the Italian flagged MV Enrica Lexie, resorted to firing on an Indian fishing vessel in position 09 20N 075 52E (heading 345 speed 14 kts) at 1700 Hrs on 15th February 2012."

where does this 9.46 pm come from??.the incident happened in broad daylight


Yes, in broad daylight. I can not do anything, the email of the Coast Guard that recalls the Enrica Lexie in the harbor is 21:36 IST, the turn towards Cochin has already occurred at 21:47 IST. I sent the email to the Prosecutor of Rome and I was questioned by the Carabinieri about it.
The documents are the lawyer of the owner and have been attached to a request for rectification, then have legal value. Am I not to have them made "‹"‹public but the reporter when he realized their importance.
This thing will disentangle to the lawyers in the process (if defense lawyers are paid by us to work, instead of doing nothing)


"After the incident, the Enrica Lexie continued sailing for almost three hours and covered a distance of 39 NM from the original position."

Not three hours, five and a half hours (from 16:00 to 21:36 IST), not 39 nm but 77 nm (14kts x 5.5). Three hours is the time when sending the report (from 16:00 to 19:16 IST)
So it can not be arrived at Cochin at 23:00 IST as claimed by the Indian authorities, but at least at 02 the next day February 16.

1."intentional" non compliance to rules of the land
2.intentional non-reporting of the incident to responsible authorities

No, the report was sent to UKMTO and MSCHOA, and by means of SSAS alert the MRCC was informed in real time.
The Enrica Lexie headed to Cochin soon as it was asked, at 21:36 IST.


you say that the vessel is not on the run,but there is a dornier aircraft launched for search along with two offshore patrol vessels.what does it say??hmm

I also believed in the hunt until I saw the email.


The italian witnesses have their mouths closed, I could not get a single word. There is some evidence against the hypothesis of the hunt.
the vessel might have changed course after 11 minutes after being stopped by indian cost guard,but there is actually 3 hour time gap from incident to arrest.


They are your hypotheses. I asked the prosecutor's office in Rome to examine the records radar. I am a specialist in this (for the investigation of aeronautical disasters). Still nothing.


probably media from all over "italy" is airing such news,but indeed its a "ship hunt"

Absolutely not. Speaks of innocence only on some minor newspapers and on the web. The major government's newspapers are silent or only shows the hypothesis of guilt. Unofficially, at who speak of innocence, it is recommended to shut up "for not peeve the Indians". I judge this shameful thing, and offensive for us and for you.


i do not understand "e-mail of coast guard".please clarify
do you mean that coast guard sent an e-mail before arrest or after?never heard our police sending e-mails to accused .there will only be an official document from court for arrest,at max

e-mails in your possession might be having no value at all,or else it would have been used as a strong deterrent in court already

Deterrent! Can I laugh? So far, the defense lawyers have not filed a single act in defense. Here we can not speak of Italian politics.

pls post their content if possible.i am amazed to hear about our police sending e-mails

Again, if you want I'll send you, it is not secret. I can not do anything from here, if you want to find you the way.
My account is not enabled for email, links or pictures.
[This is not accurate.
- Accident 16:00 IST (4:00 PM), end accident at 16:30 IST (4:30 PM), output of the men from the citadel 17:00 IST (5:00 PM)
- Report of the commander by e-mail at 19:16 IST (7:16 PM IST - 13:46 UTC) addressed to owner (D'amato Safety), to MSCHOA, UKMTO and a war ship Grecale (Italian military ship at about 1.000 km )
The report is also written that "We contact owner, and sent the SSAS alert."
SSAS is an automatic signal warning for piracy and terrorism, and the Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre (MRCC) received it in real time, at 4:00 PM IST
I have the original copy of this report. ]
the procedure followed by the ship from beginning is faulty.didn't inform authorities about its presence & no permission taken for its stay.
first the contact should have been made to indian authorities not his owner.emails describing such incident have no value

in your other post you said that incident happened at 9.30 pm now you say it happened at 4.00pm....gone sleepy?double tongue?

[Not three hours, five and a half hours (from 16:00 to 21:36 IST), not 39 nm but 77 nm (14kts x 5.5). Three hours is the time when sending the report (from 16:00 to 19:16 IST)
So it can not be arrived at Cochin at 23:00 IST as claimed by the Indian authorities, but at least at 02 the next day February 16.
]
any links will be appreciated

[No, the report was sent to UKMTO and MSCHOA, and by means of SSAS alert the MRCC was informed in real time.
The Enrica Lexie headed to Cochin soon as it was asked, at 21:36 IST. ]

are they indian authorities??no
the ship was not asked to return ,it was accompanied to the coast by coast guard

[Deterrent! Can I laugh? So far, the defense lawyers have not filed a single act in defense. Here we can not speak of Italian politics]

so no defence from your lawyers still?

[Again, if you want I'll send you, it is not secret. I can not do anything from here, if you want to find you the way.
My account is not enabled for email, links or pictures.]
upload to rapidshare etc...then

[They are your hypotheses. I asked the prosecutor's office in Rome to examine the records radar. I am a specialist in this (for the investigation of aeronautical disasters). Still nothing. ]
you still dont have anything authentic in hand and you are calling mine a hypothesis??:facepalm:
 

tramp

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what ever the reason might be,such decision taken by italian govt/soldiers means leaving the 2 sailors in indian custody for their fate.
till now there is no official comment from govt of italy,making it their personal decision not to testify.
there is no info that they wished to testify via video conference,embassy in rome
any links?


what will they do if red corner notice is issued,will this increase italian govt's prestige?
Ever since the shooting -- perhaps including the shooting incident -- the cavalier Italian attitude has got exposed several times. In fact this attitude is not accidental, but a throwback of European colonial past when dealing with Asian countries.

If Italian government is holding back the witnesses, India need not be bound by any undertaking it might have made while getting back the accused for trial.
 

Tshering22

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Why is this being made such a Europe VS India thread? WTF is wrong with Italians? Their Vatican mentality seems to be making them think that Europe still rules the entire world. While Italians are pretty cool normally (except for their loud and animated conversations and their hands emphasizing their words), don't know what is the problem with their government.

They seem to think that Sonia Gandhi is the new emperor Chandragupta of India and that they can call in all the shots as they want.

If the same thing our Sagar Prahari Bal officers had done against two Italian fishermen in Mediterranean Sea, entire Italy would be screaming for NATO to invade us and impose Level 3 sanctions on our economy.
 

Grifo

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you still dont have anything authentic in hand and you are calling mine a hypothesis??:facepalm:
I asked management forum to be able to post links and images.
If approved I will send all links and images needed to support what I say.
 

drkrn

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Why is this being made such a Europe VS India thread? WTF is wrong with Italians? Their Vatican mentality seems to be making them think that Europe still rules the entire world. While Italians are pretty cool normally (except for their loud and animated conversations and their hands emphasizing their words), don't know what is the problem with their government.

They seem to think that Sonia Gandhi is the new emperor Chandragupta of India and that they can call in all the shots as they want.

If the same thing our Sagar Prahari Bal officers had done against two Italian fishermen in Mediterranean Sea, entire Italy would be screaming for NATO to invade us and impose Level 3 sanctions on our economy.
do you know what italy said when india threatened of serious consequences if the sailors are not sent back??
"we are a member of nato and any threat to us will be regarded as war on nato":rofl::rofl:

its an official statement which left international diplomats surprised.they literally begged to take their citizens back with a sovereign guarantee of their ambassador but failed to keep up their promise

what a morally bankrupt govt.:facepalm:
 

drkrn

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Ever since the shooting -- perhaps including the shooting incident -- the cavalier Italian attitude has got exposed several times. In fact this attitude is not accidental, but a throwback of European colonial past when dealing with Asian countries.

If Italian government is holding back the witnesses, India need not be bound by any undertaking it might have made while getting back the accused for trial.
as the investigations are proceeding further intentional negligence on part of ship's captain is coming more to surface.for a better knowledge we asked for other 4 soldiers on ship to be present as witness,they are simply refusing for fear of arrest

we should wait and see if govt/IB issues a red corner notice at the direction of Supreme court of india
 

Tshering22

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do you know what italy said when india threatened of serious consequences if the sailors are not sent back??
"we are a member of nato and any threat to us will be regarded as war on nato":rofl::rofl:

its an official statement which left international diplomats surprised.they literally begged to take their citizens back with a sovereign guarantee of their ambassador but failed to keep up their promise
That's what I was referring to when following the whole marines' case. I was surprised as to why Italy issued that statement considering that we never had any colonial era animosity with them (which is being duly compensated post-independence).

what a morally bankrupt govt.:facepalm:
Ain't Madam G proof enough of that? :D
 

Abhijeet Dey

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do you know what italy said when india threatened of serious consequences if the sailors are not sent back??
"we are a member of nato and any threat to us will be regarded as war on nato":rofl::rofl:
Sir do you have any website link for this?
 

Abhijeet Dey

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Italy is also a member of Coffee Club or Uniting for Consensus. Alongside Pakistan the Italians don't want India to become a permanent member of the UN Security Council.

Link:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniting_for_Consensus
 

Grifo

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use rapidshare to do so
I try. Usually posting on my web site

Nothing, it says: - An error has occurred Grifo! You are not allowed to post links.

I await the response of the administration
 

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