It is a Crime to be a Christian in Pakistan

[tramp]

Your point that Pakistan was created to be a secular state, then the very idea of Pakistan becomes questionable. And if a secular state was the idea, it lost the very raison d'etre and right to exist on the day it was named Islamic Republic of Pakistan in 1956. So Jinnah's Pakistan died on that day and you are talking about another Islamic Pakistan now. So your observation about secularism in this Pakistan is invalid.

In fact the Zia regime was not the initiator of that radical change ... It only gave a push to what was on a steady slide that started before ZAB and gathered strength during his time through the militant Islam that he/his minions nurtured to whip the daylight out of the Bengalis. Radical religion is like a corrosive radioactive waste kept close to the body... finally it corrodes through the vessel and starts eating the very innards of the nation. The Pakistanis tried to leak some of the jihadi stuff into Kashmir which resulted in India reacting strongly and permanently mothballing the Kashmir question. Again Pakistani generals continued to play with fire with deep involvement in Afghanistan and is reaping the storm that they sowed in the mountains of the tribal belt. And they persisted with it and now the rot is spreading into the intelligence community and armed forces.

So don't try to fool the world by saying it is a secular nation and the minoriites are safe there. They will be safe only if they are either dead or have fled.

Pakistan was created as a secular nation protecting the constitutional rights of minorites to certain level. Depite dominance by muslims, the minorities remained well protected and well 'tollerated' till the Zia era when Pakistani society started to radicalise due wrong policies and diktat from Arab masters and the rise of extremism.
What Tufail is tryin to say that we are aware of our wrongdoings and good changes are to come as Pakistan finds itself on crossroads of make or break dillema.
Pakistanis are fed uo with the system and want changes.
If we succeed in taking our Pakistan back from these corrupt political feudals, its a matter of tine that we will emerge again as a moderate and strong society with high noral values as we did till the late eightees.

 

[tramp]

So you are admitting that Jinnah's Pakistan met with an untimely death in 1956. That puts to rest any more debate about the present day Pakistan and its right to exist.

I can understand your desperation in trying to prove that everything is hunky dory and that the present distractions are only a minor aberration and not the norm. it is not, it is systemic.

And the global environment in which ISIS is on the rise changes the situation radically for Pakistan and it has little time left to correct its course. ... ISIS is more potent than Al Qaida or Taliban and will spread though the network of radical NGOs and the so-called non-state actors embedded in the state.

Pakistan became an Islamic Republic in 1956, nine years after her birth. This is also the year our first constitution was written.

Numerous quotes by Jinnah prior to the independence support the fact that Pakistan was meant to be a secular country:


Speaking to the Central Legislative Assembly in 1935 Jinnah said: "Religion should not be allowed to come into politics"¦.Religion is merely a matter between man and God." Jinnah drew a clear line between politics and religion, with religion clearly limited to being "between man and God". This statement should have laid the foundation of a secular Pakistan.


As late as November 14, 1946, 9 months prior to independence, Jinnah said: "I am not fighting for Muslims, believe me, when I demand Pakistan." Jinnah pursued Pakistan neither in the name of Islam, nor exclusively for Muslims. The Father of Pakistan was more than willing to endorse an undivided India, which he openly did when he accepted the Cabinet Mission Plan. All Jinnah wanted was to ensure that the social and economic interests of the conglomerate of the Muslim-majority states remained secure.

"No distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one state," said Jinnah at his presidential address to the first Constituent Assembly of Pakistan in 1947. He went on:oSeldom has anyone described a secular state in words better than these. Jinnah spoke of the state recognizing the status of these denominations as "citizens of the state" and ignoring religious identity.

"You are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed. That has nothing to do with the business of the state."

Speaking about the Shudras, or Untouchables, during his address at the All India Muslim League session at Delhi, in 1934 he said: "In the name of humanity, I care more for [the Untouchables] than for the Muslims." These words were not uttered before a Hindu gathering, which could have led some to argue that perhaps he was trying to win their favour. These words were, in fact, openly stated during his address at a Muslim League session.

"The constitution of Pakistan has yet to be framed by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly"¦Islam and its idealism have taught us democracy. It has taught equality of men, justice and fairplay to everybody"¦In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non-Muslims – Hindus, Christians and Parsis – but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan."-

In February 1948, just months before his death, Jinnah said: "But make no mistake, Pakistan is not a theocracy or anything like it."

 

[Ashutosh Lokhande]

Deny the quotes if you can ot the fact that Pakistan became an Islamic Republic in1956 only, nine year after its birth. Pakistan came into being as a secular nation.

If its true than i wonder what was the need to carve out pakistan in 1947 as a secular and tolerant country.

plz enlighten me of your version why was pakistan carved out as democratic secular nation from already democratic secular india.


a non paki independent source plz.
As i proved from above sources that pakistan govt feeds its people with lies and fabricated distorted history inorder to keep them in dark and denial. Hence have NO credibility.

 

[Blackwater]

Your point that Pakistan was created to be a secular state, then the very idea of Pakistan becomes questionable. And if a secular state was the idea, it lost the very raison d'etre and right to exist on the day it was named Islamic Republic of Pakistan in 1956. So Jinnah's Pakistan died on that day and you are talking about another Islamic Pakistan now. So your observation about secularism in this Pakistan is invalid.

In fact the Zia regime was not the initiator of that radical change ... It only gave a push to what was on a steady slide that started before ZAB and gathered strength during his time through the militant Islam that he/his minions nurtured to whip the daylight out of the Bengalis. Radical religion is like a corrosive radioactive waste kept close to the body... finally it corrodes through the vessel and starts eating the very innards of the nation. The Pakistanis tried to leak some of the jihadi stuff into Kashmir which resulted in India reacting strongly and permanently mothballing the Kashmir question. Again Pakistani generals continued to play with fire with deep involvement in Afghanistan and is reaping the storm that they sowed in the mountains of the tribal belt. And they persisted with it and now the rot is spreading into the intelligence community and armed forces.

So don't try to fool the world by saying it is a secular nation and the minoriites are safe there. They will be safe only if they are either dead or have fled.

Yara bhains ke agay been bajane ka kya faida? Jinki nazron mein taab-e-nazaraa nahi, unko jalwa dikhane se kya faida?

 

[Ashutosh Lokhande]

@Neo @ahsan Do you think hindus;sikhs;cristians;jews;muslims and other religion can coexist?

If yes then theres no reason for pak to exist as of today. (Acc to your secular pak theory)

If no then plz look at india on how its done.

 

[Neo]

this problem arise when there is a difference in action and speech........Jinnah created a separate nation for Muslims of subcontinent, but he said (purportedly) that this new nation is for every one...see the difference, jinnah said a thing and did entirely opposite of that, even his close confides were having different view ...the changed the national anthem because it was penned by hindu, so much for secularism

Have you read my post #10? It also explains why Jinnah created Pakistan.
The new nation was indeed for everyone including the sizeable section of the non muslims residing in the territories assugned to Pakistan.

 

[Ray]

If Jinnah was taken seriously by Pakistanis, then Pakistan would not be in the sorry state it is in.

He was too free wheeling for the conservatives to accept his free wheeling ideas and lifestyle.

Even before Jinnah's bone had turned cold, Pakistan commenced its tailspin.

It took years and IIRC it was in 1956 that the Pakistan Constitution was accepted.

And soon the Army under Ayub took over and started the game of musical chair for governance and even when there was a democracy, it was the Army that called the tune.

Zia and his introduction of the Sharia applicable to all, killed any hope of a decent existence of anyone, but a Muslim, not that they were better off as equal citizens before.

It became worse with Ahmediyas declared as kaffirs and Shias taken as second class and not worthy of Pakistan.

I just cannot fathom what makes Pakistanis think that Muslims are the only human beings fit to walk Planet Earth, and that too, Sunni Muslims?

Are they the new avatar of Hitler and his untermenschen theory?

 

[anupamsurey]

Have you read my post #10? It also explains why Jinnah created Pakistan.
The new nation was indeed for everyone including the sizeable section of the non muslims residing in the territories assugned to Pakistan.

yeah i did read it, and thats why i said that jinnah was trying to juggle too many balls at a same time and when he did something he did it on entirely opposite planes. it was just like building a new structure on a rotten base.
what seizable minority...the large population of non muslims was forced to flee under gruesome violence to make muslims a majority. the only thing the Pakistani (both east and west) did was entirely opposite of secularism (and truly enough we dont find any prominent paki leader even appealing to stop the violence), the borders were opened for many years, any many forward thinking hindus fled the area. Poor christians were again fooled by the unity among abrahmic religion propaganda and stayed in pak....now they are too sizable because their population is dwindling under forced conversions.
and if jinnah was so intelligent , secular, democratic then why didnt he decided to hold a constitutional post, if i remember rightly he said that he wanted to be a over lord or something to pakistan -not a president, not a prime minister, but a ruler (dictator)- jinnah is a very confusing personality (purportedly), it is as if he had a multiple personality disorder

 

[tramp]

Will you agree that the situation for the minoriities including Shias, Ahmadis, Christians, Sikhs and Hindus is very bad in Pakistan? Because the blasphemy law can be used against any of them at any time. And once a charge is made the suspect's life is immediately in danger?
Then on its only a matter of time before the suspect is bumped off.... either even if he/she is not arrested, arrested, on trial, in jail ... anywhere... Now even policemen have started bumping off undertrials in judicial custody.. and those discharged after the charge is found made up are killed when they come out, often lynched in the court compound itself.
The minorities are under intense pressure even otherwise with constant onslaught of pressure to convert, and the girls are most vulnerable... including under abduction threat and conversion and forced marriage.

Have you read my post #10? It also explains why Jinnah created Pakistan.
The new nation was indeed for everyone including the sizeable section of the non muslims residing in the territories assugned to Pakistan.

 

[Ray]

Because the blasphemy law can be used against any of them at any time. And once a charge is made the suspect's life is immediately in danger?
Then on its only a matter of time before the suspect is bumped off.... either even if he/she is not arrested, arrested, on trial, in jail ... anywhere... Now even policemen have started bumping off undertrials in judicial custody.. and those discharged after the charge is found made up are killed when they come out, often lynched in the court compound itself.

Here it is from a Pakistani newspaper Daily Star:

Pakistan policeman kills Christian accused of blasphemy
ISLAMABAD: A Pakistani policeman shot two men in jail on Thursday, killing one accused of blasphemy and wounding another condemned to death on the same charge, lawyers and an activist said.

Christian pastor Zafar Bhatti was killed and 70-year-old Briton Muhammad Asghar, who has a history of mental illness, was wounded in the attack in Rawalpindi, next to the capital, Islamabad.

Bhatti, who worked to protect the human rights of the country's beleaguered Christian minority, was on trial after an Islamic leader accused him in 2012 of sending text messages derogatory to the Prophet Mohammed's mother.....

In recent weeks, Bhatti had received death threats in prison from both inmates and guards, his family told Pakistan-based human rights group Life for All. He was being held in the same cell as Asghar.
Pakistan policeman kills Christian accused of blasphemy | News , World | THE DAILY STAR

Just imagine if there was a Blasphemy Law in India, then what would happen to the minorities?

Fortunately, India is people by people with intelligence beyond the Medieval era and not having sold their soul and head to religious immaturity.