ISRO's low-cost launch service irks US companies

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by Indx TechStyle, Apr 6, 2016.

  1. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle Perfaarmance Naarmal Senior Member

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    U.S. launch companies lobby to maintain ban on use of Indian rockets
    [​IMG]

    PARIS — The U.S. ambassador to India on Feb. 25 gave a speech celebrating the growing U.S.-India cooperation in space.

    “In September 2015, for the first time India launched a U.S. satellite – well, actually four at once,” Ambassador Richard Verma said in prepared remarks to a space policy forum in New Delhi. “The satellites belonged to a U.S. company, and India launched them from its trusted workhorse – the Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle, which has launched satellites for 20 different countries. Other U.S. companies have sought launches on India’s PSLV, including a Google satellite scheduled for launch in April.”

    The next day, the U.S. Department of Transportation’s Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) endorsed an advisory committee’s recommendation that commercial U.S. satellites continue to be barred from using the PSLV.
    In its Feb. 26 decision, the FAA said it agreed with its Commercial Space Transportation Advisory Committee (COMSTAC) that Indian launch services, owned and controlled by the Indian government, threaten to “distort the conditions of competition” in the launch-services market.

    The FAA assured COMSTAC that the agency’s opinion would be part of the current review of whether India’s refusal to sign a Commercial Space Launch Agreement (CSLA) on rocket pricing still justifies the ban. The review, led by the U.S. Trade Representative, is the reason COMSTAC had raised the issue.

    The ambassador’s speech and the FAA’s decision would appear to come from two different governments, which industry officials on both sides said pretty much sums up the state of U.S. policy.

    “There is a real dysfunction on the government side,” said one U.S. industry official whose company wants the government to maintain a no-license bias with respect to the PSLV. “On the one hand, you have the policy, which no agency wants to take responsibility for but which remains the policy. On the other, government agencies are practically falling over themselves to grant waivers.”

    “Falling over themselves” may be an exaggeration, but as Ambassador Verma noted, several commercial U.S. satellite owners and at least one non-U.S. company – Airbus Defence and Space, whose Spot 6 and Spot 7 commercial Earth observation satellites have U.S. components – have succeeded in launching on the PSLV after obtaining waivers.

    The CSLA, dating from 2005, is the U.S. government’s way of protecting the seemingly forever-nascent U.S. small-satellite launch industry from competing with government-controlled foreign launchers for U.S. business. It seeks to oblige non-U.S. rocket providers to sign a CSLA that, for all intents and purposes, sets U.S. commercial launch prices as the world minimum for government-owned non-U.S. launch providers.

    The rationale is that these non-U.S. launchers, not bound by the constraints of profit and loss – but hungry for hard-currency export earnings – will undercut commercial U.S. companies’ launch prices and keep them from gaining market traction.

    That is COMSTAC’s rationale, most recently reinforced at a Jan. 27 conference call of its International Space Policy Working Group in preparation of its FAA submission.

    “[M]any dedicated small satellite launch vehicles are currently being developed with private investment. Most of these new launch vehicles are scheduled to be operational in 2016 and 2017,” COMSTAC said.

    “[A]llowing India’s state-owned and controlled launch providers to compete with U.S. companies runs counter to many national policies and undermines the work that has been done by government and industry to ensure the health of the U.S. space launch industrial bases,” COMSTAC concluded.

    Unlike its launcher counterpart, the U.S. small satellite industry has taken off in recent years, with several companies moving quickly from aspiration to execution. Spire Global and Planet Labs, both of San Francisco; and Google Skybox Imaging, now renamed Terra Bella, of Mountain View, California, have all started launching constellations.

    Spaceflight Industries of Seattle, Washington, is doing likewise with its own constellation, set for launch starting this year on the PSLV. Through its sister company, Spaceflight Services, it is also brokering launch services for other satellite owners.

    These companies have said options are limited for satellites whose size means they can never order, on their own, a full U.S. launch vehicle in today’s market. The small rockets are rare, of uncertain schedule reliability and are priced too high, they say. The larger rockets, which occasionally make room for secondary passengers, launch when their larger primary passengers are ready, not before.

    None of these companies are members of COMSTAC, which advises FAA’s Office of Commercial Space Transportation and as such has a membership focused more on rockets than on satellite payloads.

    The CSLA was once known as the “SpaceX Agreement” because Hawthorne, California-based SpaceX was introducing a new rocket, called Falcon 1, which appealed directly to small satellite owners.

    But Falcon 1 was discarded in 2009 as SpaceX moved to the Falcon 9 to launch heavier payloads for NASA and the commercial sector.

    Falcon 1’s retirement left a hole in the U.S. small-satellite launch market that has yet to be filled by anyone else, although several companies have announced plans to enter the business.

    But the policy has not changed, despite the contrast between the rapid development of a U.S. small satellite market and a corresponding launch sector. The gap is understandable: Up to now, it has proved easier to make a profit operating commercial satellites than operating commercial rockets.

    At the recent Satellite 2016 conference in National Harbor, Maryland, a U.S. State Department official said the ban on commercial use of Indian rockets, except for civil, noncommercial satellites, remains in place despite the fact that it no longer bears much relevance to SpaceX.

    “It’s not State Department policy, it’s a U.S. Trade Representative policy,” said Anthony M. Dearth, director of licensing at the State Department’s Directorate of Defense Trade Controls.

    “I don’t know how much impact SpaceX has on it,” Dearth said March 9. “They entered the market with the Falcon 1 for small objects. Now they’re chasing U.S. government assets. We’ve heard from small satellite manufacturers that SpaceX isn’t interested in small satellites.”

    COMSTAC declined to respond to requests for comment on what it meant when it told the FAA that several new commercial rockets “are scheduled to be operational in 2016 and 2017.”

    One small satellite owner said his company would go out of business if it had to wait for a reliable and cost-effective U.S. small satellite launch industry to be created.

    An official with a commercial launch service provider had another view. It goes beyond launch services, this official said. India has not fully opened its satellite telecommunications market to non-Indian satellite service providers, funneling all satellite bandwidth contracts through the Indian Space Research Organisation.

    “This is a country that is basically closed to us, and that’s an understatement,” this official said. “Why are we unilaterally allowing access to the U.S. market?”
     
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  3. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle Perfaarmance Naarmal Senior Member

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  4. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle Perfaarmance Naarmal Senior Member

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  5. Navnit Kundu

    Navnit Kundu Pika Hu Akbarrr!! Senior Member

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    That's alright, that's what being an independent civilizations entails. Up until now they were using Russian engines for their launch rockets. They moved to ban that too, probably because they figured out that they would be in a sticky situation if Russia bans the sale of engines to the US, which it seems they were actively considering. That news isn't too old.

    [​IMG]

    It's one of those times when a civilization has to make hard choices for themselves. This launch rocket ban is to them what 'DRDO-Make in India' project is to us : an exercise in strategic sovereignty. When push comes to shove, no one wants to be caught on the backfoot because of lack of sovereign control of strategic assets. I'm just sitting here and imagining the amusing situation when there is another Kargil like situation, this time it would be India which places an arms embargo on the US instead of the other way round, if we are supplying them launch platforms. Just imagine the kind of tectonic paradigm shift that would be. Obviously, the US doesn't want to be vulnerable and hence the measure.

    Chalo theek hai, koi baat nahi, this isn't exactly the most Indophobic thing the US has done. If you compare this to all the other things they have done against India, which had no strategic value, this doesn't even come close. We aren't exactly going to go bankrupt if the US bans us. In this era of competition, cost effective solutions will always have more suitors anyday. We have launched satellites of Israel, France, Britain, Singapore and so many other nations. We'll be fine. India wont die of hunger if the US blacklists India from providing launch services to their companies. It will be their own companies who would find themselves at a disadvantage in the competitive global market. In that context, it's not a ban on India, it's a ban on their own companies.

    When they realize that their nation's strategic interests don't coincide with their economic interests there will be pressure from within American businesses to revoke the ban on India in order to stay competitive. As long as their economic interests and strategic interests of the American empire coincided, they had a merry ride. They could use their comprehensive power to bully and bulldoze others, now with the advent of new powers, their strategic and economic interests diverge and they will increasingly find themselves in a sticky position where they will have to pick one over the other. They tried to ban our cryo engine program, we all know how that worked out. They tried to ban our missiles program, we all know how that worked out. They tried to ban our ballistic missile defense program, we all know how that worked out. They tried to ban Indian professionals from migrating to the US by imposing visa restrictions, we all know how that worked out. That is what India is, you can't ignore us.

    When the US banned alcohol during prohibition days, people simply made alcohol in their bathtubs. If we've learnt anything from prohibition, if they try to ban Indians, people will simply start making Indians in their bathtubs.

    With that, I rest my case milord.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2016
  6. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle Perfaarmance Naarmal Senior Member

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    You are a Hindu na?
    Tagged elsewhere. Check what happened to our history taught in US.
     
  7. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    It seems US companies cannot compete so the are asking for help from government. Nobody can beat India in space launches. India has a major cost advantage. The space cooperation may have been a ploy? India has manpower and technology and cost advantages to be the premier space power. If USA or Europe is upset too bad. The world is much bigger than these two places.
     
  8. HariPrasad-1

    HariPrasad-1 Senior Member Senior Member

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    US is a capitalist country and if we can launch their satellite at low cost than their govt can not stop their companies. We should reduce the cost further of launch so that we can destroy American commercial satellite establishment.
     
  9. AnantS

    AnantS Senior Member Senior Member

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    We are launching few US sats this year. http://spacenews.com/spaceflight-wa...-business-to-larger-satellites-and-geo-orbit/. Its just another GOTUS way of extracting moolahs/favors from US companies. Just American version of License Raj. :

     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2016
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  10. Bahamut

    Bahamut Senior Member Senior Member

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    They have problem when Indian Govt. help domestic solar manufacture and then they do this ,let us make a it a example ,tell to LM and Boeing that F 16 and F 18 are not welcomed ,
     
  11. Screambowl

    Screambowl Senior Member Senior Member

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    Well this is business.... India is doing good. And they cannot force people to buy costly things. India can attract better ;)
     
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  12. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle Perfaarmance Naarmal Senior Member

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    @Sakal Gharelu Ustad @sayareakd
    Please change the title "ISRO's low cost launch service irks US Companies" instead of"low launch".
    It was my mistake and I didn't even notice it when I had to. Please do it.
     
  13. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle Perfaarmance Naarmal Senior Member

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    They have problem with our LRMs also because their satellites can't detect whenever it is launched. :p
     
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  14. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Took care of that.
    ____________________________________
     
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  15. Bahamut

    Bahamut Senior Member Senior Member

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    The problem is that u cannot use unfair means,if a country has a very good technology,US then instead of competing with them ,put sanction on the export ,reduce credit availability for the country,bully the partner of the country .A former CIA agent accept in Cuba that US ran a operation to put cement and other impurities in children so that they cannot get proper food.This is not acceptable.
     
  16. Navnit Kundu

    Navnit Kundu Pika Hu Akbarrr!! Senior Member

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    [​IMG]


    @Indx TechStyle, What happened to all the American grandstanding about banning Indian launchers? Ek hafte mein hawa phuss ho gayi?
     
  17. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle Perfaarmance Naarmal Senior Member

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    Around 2000-2005, Chinese rockets.
    Banned, unbanned, banned.
    Then, imported Russian Engines (their engines still not complete).
    Then., India launchers, banned, unbanned, banned, unbanned, banned, unbanned.

    I guess reason is simple.

    It would be less shameful for USA to ask for Indian help instead of Russia and China.

    We had scheduled our space shuttle in year 2010, but delayed to due to priority of other projects.
    Otherwise, they would be seen using Indian Space Shuttle for ISS. :hehe:
     
  18. Navnit Kundu

    Navnit Kundu Pika Hu Akbarrr!! Senior Member

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    Yup, but that's the objective assessment, which we all already knew that US can't ban Indian space tech from the market, what I'm focusing on is their subjective assessment, or rather, their arrogance in not just thinking but saying out loud that 'India needs to be banned', with ZERO forethought about the diplomatic message it sends. This is symptomatic of how these classless faggots handle all their matters.

    Many diplomats from many nations have written books after they retire, almost all of them have a mention of their encounter with obnoxious American diplomacy (lack of).

    Remember when the Negro came to India during Manmohan's time and addressed the parliament? he admonished India for being friendly towards Myanmar and lectured us on how we should join the American effort to sanction Myanmar. Just 4 months after that address, the US realized that it was not wise to isolate Myanmar so they started making friendly overtures.

    Point of the matter is, there are many people in India who consider American skepticism as a valid benchmark to test whether we are doing the right thing or now. This slave mentality must be done away with. This is slightly unrelated to the thread but I wanted to use this rocket ban example to cite how hollow these Americans are, we don't need to take their apprehensions seriously and bulldoze our way into whatever it is we want to do.
     
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  19. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle Perfaarmance Naarmal Senior Member

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    @Navnit Kundu Anyway, I have quoted my a month old post in thread of ISRO.
    There's a facility which can be used as weather based weapon in long term.
    It is pretty cool. :peace:
    First LASTEC lasers, then, DEWs, and then, Weather based weapons.
    Would anybody like to discuss?
     
  20. Navnit Kundu

    Navnit Kundu Pika Hu Akbarrr!! Senior Member

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    Yeah, sure, is there a link for the thread?
     
  21. Indx TechStyle

    Indx TechStyle Perfaarmance Naarmal Senior Member

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    Sure.
    Here's, Idea of weather. :p
    http://www.defenceforumindia.com/forum/posts/1147774
    Still a long way to go.
    Giving only one link for laser and DEW currently
    http://m.ibtimes.co.in/drdo-develop...ns-project-likely-be-completed-by-2017-672317
    but I have an entire collection of links and photos.
    I will create an entire thread over that when I will have time. :)

    Kudos, you made me excited again, I'm looking for posting it after dinner. :D
     
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