Israel to supply Spike 'tank-killer' missiles to India

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by LETHALFORCE, Nov 29, 2012.

  1. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Israel to supply Spike ‘tank-killer’ missiles to India

    Israel ahead of US in race to supply ‘tank-killer’ missiles to India - The Times of India

    NEW DELHI: Israel has upstaged the US in the ongoing race to bag the huge deal to supply third-generation anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) to the Indian Army, in a project which could well be worth $1 billion eventually.

    Defence ministry sources said the plan to go in for the American FGM-148 Javelin ATGMs has "virtually been shelved" because of Washington's reluctance to provide full military knowhow - licensed "transfer of technology (ToT)'' - to allow India to indigenously manufacture the "tank killers'' in large numbers after an initial off-the-shelf purchase.

    Instead, the Army has already completed extensive trials of the Israeli 'Spike' ATGM, which like Javelin is also a shoulder-launched and fire-and-forget missile, under varied conditions in plains, deserts and mountains. "The staff evaluation is now in progress as the next step in the procurement process,'' said a source.

    The Javelin imbroglio has once again rekindled long-held fears in the Indian defence establishment about the US not being a reliable long-term supplier of cutting-edge military technology. India also detests American conditions on "intrusive end-user inspections'' of weapons sold to its armed forces.

    The US has notched up military sales worth over $8 billion to India in the last few years, including mega deals for C-130J 'Super Hercules', C-17 Globemaster-III and P-8I maritime patrol aircraft, but they did not involve licensed production in India.

    The AGTM project, in contrast, involves ToT since the 1.13-million Army wants to equip all its 356 infantry battalions with the man-portable missiles as an effective counter to Pakistani and Chinese main battle tanks. A bulk of the estimated 2,000 launchers and 24,000 missiles required for this are planned for production by defence PSU Bharat Dynamics (BDL) after getting requisite ToT from the selected foreign vendor.

    With General Bikram Singh identifying infantry modernization as a major thrust area, the Army wants to complete the induction of these 2.5-km range advanced ATGMs by the end of the 12th Plan (2017).

    At present, infantry units are making do with second-generation Milan (2-km range) and Konkurs (4-km) ATGMs, produced by BDL under licence from French and Russian companies, which are wire-guided and do not have fire-and-forget capabilities.

    Overall, the Army has an "authorized holding'' for over 81,000 different kinds of ATGMs, which are critical to stem enemy armoured attacks, but does not have even half of that number in its inventory.

    A part of the deficiency will be met by the induction of the long-delayed indigenous third-generation Nag ATGMs, which are vehicle and helicopter-mounted, with a 4-km strike range. The Army has already placed an initial order for 443 Nag missiles and 13 Namicas (Nag missile tracked carriers).

    If Israel, the second-largest defence supplier to India after Russia, does indeed stitch up the ATGM project, it will be the third major missile programme between the two countries. They are already collaborating in two surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems, under which deliveries are slated to begin soon.

    While the DRDO-Israeli Aerospace Industries (IAI) project for long-range-SAM to arm Indian warships is worth Rs 2,606 crore, the medium-range-SAM one for IAF is worth Rs 10,076 crore.

    From Heron and Searcher UAVs, Harpy and Harop "killer'' drones to Barak anti-missile defence systems and Green Pine radars, Python and Derby air-to-air missiles, Israel notches up military sales to India roughly worth $1 billion every year.
     
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  3. KS

    KS Bye bye DFI Veteran Member

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    Re: Israel to supply Spike ‘tank-killer’ missiles to India

    So we are going to go for the second best system because US refused to part with the ToT. Wonder what would have happened if F-18 had been downlisted for the MRCA deal ?
     
  4. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    Re: Israel to supply Spike ‘tank-killer’ missiles to India

    what is range of spike? If i am not mistaken it can change it flight path in mid course. Plus its range is beyond US missile offered to us.
    @KS They (Uncle) has refused us TOT, missile was not only very very expensive one but also over rated.
     
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  5. KS

    KS Bye bye DFI Veteran Member

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    Re: Israel to supply Spike ‘tank-killer’ missiles to India

    sir but did not Spike fail in the desert trials where it failed to hit the target many times ? I heard Javelin outperformed Spike quite by a distance.

    But yeah, there is no point in going for a missile where we have been refused the ToT. Maybe we can take the Spike and try to work out with the Israelis and rectify the mistakes.
     
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  6. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    Re: Israel to supply Spike ‘tank-killer’ missiles to India

    Ks, spike non line of sight has range of 25 km, regular version has range of 4km, subject to correction by any member.
    I am not aware if javilan was tested in Indian conditions.
     
  7. trackwhack

    trackwhack Tihar Jail Banned

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    Re: Israel to supply Spike ‘tank-killer’ missiles to India

    It will be good if Israels dependence on India being a customer increases as well. At least they seem to be a nation that's willing to accept India as an equal partner.
     
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  8. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Re: Israel to supply Spike ‘tank-killer’ missiles to India

    @pack leader said that the Spike is the better system compared to Javelin. Maybe it happened for the good.
     
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  9. mayfair

    mayfair Elite Member Elite Member

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    Re: Israel to supply Spike ‘tank-killer’ missiles to India

    That would be surprising given that Israel IS a desert country and as such one would expect their equipment to be quite attuned with working in such an environment.

    I wonder if the aim was to ensure another piece of the pie goes to US
     
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  10. Blackwater

    Blackwater Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    Re: Israel to supply Spike ‘tank-killer’ missiles to India

    only if tender is not cancelled at the last movment:laugh::laugh::laugh:
     
  11. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    Re: Israel to supply Spike ‘tank-killer’ missiles to India

    Any comments form the Pakistani media?
     
  12. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    Re: Israel to supply Spike ‘tank-killer’ missiles to India

     
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  13. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    Re: Israel to supply Spike ‘tank-killer’ missiles to India

    this is how it works, best part is that you can control it in flight and change the target \

     
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  14. Sridhar

    Sridhar House keeper Moderator

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  15. AVERAGE INDIAN

    AVERAGE INDIAN EXORCIST Senior Member

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    Re: Israel to supply Spike ‘tank-killer’ missiles to India

    Israel pips US in anti-tank guided missile supply to India

    NEW DELHI: Israel has upstaged the US in the ongoing race to bag the huge deal to supply third-generation anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) to the Indian Army, in a project which could well be worth $1 billion eventually.

    Defence ministry sources said the plan to go in for the American FGM-148 Javelin ATGMs has "virtually been shelved" because of Washington's reluctance to provide full military knowhow - licensed "transfer of technology (ToT)'' - to allow India to indigenously manufacture the "tank killers'' in large numbers after an initial off-the-shelf purchase.

    Instead, the Army has already completed extensive trials of the Israeli 'Spike' ATGM, which like Javelin is also a shoulder-launched and fire-and-forget missile, under varied conditions in plains, deserts and mountains. "The staff evaluation is now in progress as the next step in the procurement process,'' said a source.

    The Javelin imbroglio has once again rekindled long-held fears in the Indian defence establishment about the US not being a reliable long-term supplier of cutting-edge military technology. India also detests American conditions on "intrusive end-user inspections'' of weapons sold to its armed forces.

    The US has notched up military sales worth over $8 billion to India in the last few years, including mega deals for C-130J 'Super Hercules', C-17 Globemaster-III and P-8I maritime patrol aircraft, but they did not involve licensed production in India.

    The AGTM project, in contrast, involves ToT since the 1.13-million Army wants to equip all its 356 infantry battalions with the man-portable missiles as an effective counter to Pakistani and Chinese main battle tanks. A bulk of the estimated 2,000 launchers and 24,000 missiles required for this are planned for production by defence PSU Bharat Dynamics (BDL) after getting requisite ToT from the selected foreign vendor.

    With General Bikram Singh identifying infantry modernization as a major thrust area, the Army wants to complete the induction of these 2.5-km range advanced ATGMs by the end of the 12th Plan (2017).

    At present, infantry units are making do with second-generation Milan (2-km range) and Konkurs (4-km) ATGMs, produced by BDL under licence from French and Russian companies, which are wire-guided and do not have fire-and-forget capabilities.

    Overall, the Army has an "authorized holding'' for over 81,000 different kinds of ATGMs, which are critical to stem enemy armoured attacks, but does not have even half of that number in its inventory.

    A part of the deficiency will be met by the induction of the long-delayed indigenous third-generation Nag ATGMs, which are vehicle and helicopter-mounted, with a 4-km strike range. The Army has already placed an initial order for 443 Nag missiles and 13 Namicas (Nag missile tracked carriers).

    If Israel, the second-largest defence supplier to India after Russia, does indeed stitch up the ATGM project, it will be the third major missile programme between the two countries. They are already collaborating in two surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems, under which deliveries are slated to begin soon.

    While the DRDO-Israeli Aerospace Industries (IAI) project for long-range-SAM to arm Indian warships is worth Rs 2,606 crore, the medium-range-SAM one for IAF is worth Rs 10,076 crore.

    From Heron and Searcher UAVs, Harpy and Harop "killer'' drones to Barak anti-missile defence systems and Green Pine radars, Python and Derby air-to-air missiles, Israel notches up military sales to India roughly worth $1 billion every year.

    Israel pips US in anti-tank guided missile supply to India - The Economic Times
     
  16. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    Re: Israel to supply Spike ‘tank-killer’ missiles to India

    Can those sources be posted on DFI, Sir?
     
  17. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Re: Israel to supply Spike ‘tank-killer’ missiles to India

    MILAN will probably be phased out slowly as Spike production picks up. For 1 billion
    dollars there must be a huge number ordered.
     
  18. pack leader

    pack leader Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Re: Israel to supply Spike ‘tank-killer’ missiles to India

    the Germans got 400l ifv launchers and 300 man-pack launchers + 2000 missiles + tot for 700 million dollar do the math
     
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  19. Snuggy321

    Snuggy321 Regular Member

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    Re: Israel to supply Spike ‘tank-killer’ missiles to India

    From wiki. "Indian Ministry of Defence officials told the magazine that the order is for 321 launchers, 8,356 missiles, and 15 training simulators, and peripheral equipment" for one billion. I doubt that we will replace our MILANS with around 8000 missiles.
     
  20. SajeevJino

    SajeevJino Long walk Elite Member

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    Re: Israel to supply Spike ‘tank-killer’ missiles to India

    India Again Considers Buying Israeli-made ATGM


    The Israeli-built Spike anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) is back on the Indian Army’s acquisition agenda. The potential purchase of the missile arose during a Nov. 11 meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC), which likely will take up the issue again when it meets later this month, an Indian Defence Ministry source said.

    The purchase of the Spike was put on hold in April as it was a single-vendor procurement from Israeli company Rafael. But the Indian Army is in a hurry to get advanced ATGMs.

    The renewed interest in the Spike is unlikely to affect a US proposal to jointly produce the Javelin ATGM with India, the Defence Ministry source said, because the Army needs more than 20,000 advanced ATGMs. The Spike, if purchased, will be vehicle-mounted, the source said, while the Javelin will be man-portable.

    The Army currently depends on Konkurs M and Milan ATGMs, which are less than 2,000 meters in range.

    The Indian Army’s 2010 request for proposals (RfPs) for advanced ATGMs went to Rafael, Paris-based MBDA, US companies Raytheon and General Dynamics and Russia’s Rosoboronoexport. Only Rafael responded to the tender; the other companies balked at India’s technology-transfer requirements.

    The Indian Army now proposes to buy third-generation Spike ATGM systems including 321 missile launchers, 8,356 missiles and 15 training simulators and associated accessories, along with transfer of technology. The Army would mount the Spikes on its Russian-made BMP-2 infantry combat vehicles.

    US Deputy Defence Secretary Ash Carter formally proposed the joint development of the Javelin during a September visit to India. The Americans have agreed to sell about 6,000 man-portable Javelins to India within six to eight months of a contract signing, and for future needs the US can explore co-production of the missile and later work on the co-development of an ATGM tailored for India. The Americans have also agreed to transfer technology including the special process for manufacturing the Javelin’s warhead, rocket motor, propellant, guidance and seeker, but no algorithms for guidance, which an Indian Army official said is the core to any guidance system.

    A team from Raytheon and Lockheed Martin has already briefed Defence Ministry officials on the possibilities of joint development of the Javelin.

    India also is developing its own ATGM, the Nag.

    India Again Considers Buying Israeli-made ATGM | Defense News | defensenews.com
     
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  21. SajeevJino

    SajeevJino Long walk Elite Member

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    Re: Israel to supply Spike ‘tank-killer’ missiles to India

    So the Spike going to be a Mounted one Not the Man portable

    Still we need a Man Portable ATM ...Joint Production of Javellin..? or Our Own Nag..?
     

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