Is the US really secular?

[average american]

Rather absurd, if your religions are giving Indians what they need then efforts of christians will fail, if not they will susceed. Christianity does quite well when its repressed by inferior religons, Only religons that are inferior and dont meet the needs of those they serve need to be afraid of christiany. A sure sign if that is when laws are passed to oppress christians.

 

[Das ka das]

Rather absurd, if your religions are giving Indians what they need then efforts of christians will fail, if not they will susceed. Christianity does quite well when its repressed by inferior religons, Only religons that are inferior and dont meet the needs of those they serve need to be afraid of christiany. A sure sign if that is when laws are passed to oppress christians.

Either you have no idea of the reality of conversions or you are talking out of you rear end.

Becoming a Christian is a FINANCIAL reason for 99% of Indians. If Christianity is so superior then why is it DEAD in Europe and vast numbers of people in USA have stopped identifying with the religion.

 

[asianobserve]

(irrelevant)

 

[Ray]

Rather absurd, if your religions are giving Indians what they need then efforts of christians will fail, if not they will susceed. Christianity does quite well when its repressed by inferior religons, Only religons that are inferior and dont meet the needs of those they serve need to be afraid of christiany. A sure sign if that is when laws are passed to oppress christians.

Firstly, I don't think you have read about the enforcement plan of the Joshua Project in India.

Secondly, you may like to draw a parallel with total concern and worry that the US has with the activities of the Tablighi Movement of Islam in the US.

Tablighi Jamaat under US scanner

The Tablighi Jamaat, which describes itself as a non-political, non-violent group interested only in 'proselytising and bringing wayward Muslims back to Islam', attracted US investigators' interest following the September 11, 2001, attacks.

Another senior law enforcement official described the group as 'a natural entree, a way of gathering people together with a common interest in Islam'.
Tablighi Jamaat under US scanner

That much for secularism in the US and your contention.

Pray, my good sir, what is your idea of an 'inferior religion'?

To quote Dan Brown from his book 'The Lost Symbol'

Don't tell anyone, but on the pagan day of the sun god Ra, I kneel at the foot of ancient instrument of torture and consume ritualistic symbols of blood and flesh....And if any of you care to join me, come to the Harvard chapel on Sunday, kneel beneath the crucifix, and take Holy Communion.

Very superior and very civilised, what ho?

Dear sir, debate all you want, but don't feel that others are 3rd world natives running naked inside the bush.

The 3rd world (which you so contemptuously discard) people have thrown away the shackles of colonialism and have ensured that they have the benefits of education and I daresay that they are better equipped intelligence- wise that your Vice President aspirant Sarah Palin or your wise blue collar wonder, Joe the Plumber.

Do bring in better points in the debate so that you can amuse yourself by being 'uppity'!

And do read posts before commenting with lame excuses like 'inferior religions'.

When someone gets rude and obtuse, one sure knows that the other person is as helpless as a landed fish gasping as if for air!

A sure sign if that is when laws are passed to oppress christians.

Laws are not being passed to oppress Christian.

It is merely to ensure that snake oil salesmen do not proliferate in the surroundings.

Just as a matter of aide memoir, Sonia Gandhi, the uncrowned Empress of India, is a bible bashing Papal disciple! Her whole brood is wedded to the Catholic faith. So, how can there be oppression of the beloved brothers and sisters of compassionate bleeding order that cares so deeply for the oppressed pagans with snake oil salesmen slickness?

 

[average american]

Hindu Nationalists Seek to 'Indianize' Christians
In a fresh attack on Christians and Muslims, the Hindu nationalist Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) has joined the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) in demanding their Indianization. "We are not demanding conversion of Muslims and Christians into Hindus. For the sake of unity and integrity of the country, we are demanding that they should be indigenized, and be given Indian names," he said.

Last October, RSS chief K. S. Sudershan called on Christians and Muslims to cut their spiritual links with "foreign sources." In a separate development, the VHP's general secretary claimed that about 33,000 people had been converted to Christianity in the northern state of Sikkim in the last 25 years. He added that the figure was compiled by VHP workers touring villages, cautioning people against conversion.

Meanwhile the VHP says it is planning to revamp its image and highlight its "social work" component in the rural areas among the backward castes and tribals. According to VHP's chief of social projects, the aim is to counter the influence of Christian missionaries.

Missionaries Beaten in India
Beatings and threats did not deter four native missionaries in Orissa, India. The men were praying recently when an anti-Christian mob broke into their apartment and seized them, according to Advance newsletter.
They were tied hand and foot, beaten, and subjected to electric shocks, then dragged naked into the streets and forced to flee the town after their release, the newsletter reported. The gang threatened to kill them if they returned, but the missionaries came back as soon as they had the strength.
"We have been beaten and wounded here," the missionaries said, Advance reported. "We will not leave until we see a church of people committed to following Jesus."

Attempt to Nationalize Churches in India
India's Christian community is rejecting suggestions that its churches be nationalized. A Hindu spiritual leader last week proposed that churches be reorganized and placed under government control, as official churches are in China, Ecumenical News International reported.
The Chinese model "does not go with the secular democracy of our country," a spokesman for the National Council of Churches in India said. The suggestion shows the "true colors" of Hindu radicals, Roman Catholic Archbishop Vincent Concessao of Agra said. If the ruling Hindu political party had a clear majority in the parliament "they would certainly do such things to isolate Indian Christians from the outside world," he said. Lutheran church leader K. Rajaratnam called the suggestion mad and "an insult."

Missionaries should be expelled from India, says a prominent Hindu leader. K.S. Sudarshan said the government should establish an all-Indian church and tell foreign missionaries "to pack up and go," according to the Guardian, a British tabloid. Sudarshan is a leader of the radical Hindu Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh spiritual organization, which has close ties to the Bharatiya Janata Party, the Hindu ruling political party.
India should establish a state-sanctioned church similar to China's, Sudarshan said in a speech to 21,000 followers. India's Catholic Church should be severed from the Vatican and submit only to government authorities, he said.
Catholics and Protestants have been the targets of a "well orchestrated campaign of hate and calumny" in recent years, Christian leaders told the Guardian. Radical Hindus, with the tacit approval of government officials, have attacked Christians and their churches and homes, they said.

Inferior religions use that kind of tactics to combat Christianity but Christianity thrives when perscuted.

10Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
(Matthew 5:10-12)

Religious perscution in the 21st century is only done in 3rd world countries. Usually very backward 3rd world countries where few of the population can even read.

 

[Ray]

What of it good sir?

Indianise Indians is a sin?

Have you read the posts on Project Joshua in India.

Read it.

And then come back.

Do also check out what is 'Rice Christian'.

VHP or RSS is not India, in case you did not know that.

And there is no Blasphemy Law as in Pakistan, where inspite of trumped up charges against Christian, the US kowtows to Pakistan.

Doctor, Heal thyself!

 

[average american]

What of it good sir?

Indianise Indians is a sin?

Have you read the posts on Project Joshua in India.

Read it.

And then come back.

Do also check out what is 'Rice Christian'.

VHP or RSS is not India, in case you did not know that.

And there is no Blasphemy Law as in Pakistan, where inspite of trumped up charges against Christian, the US kowtows to Pakistan.

Doctor, Heal thyself!

There is no US Goverment conspiracy to impose Christianity on India. thats absurd.

 

[Ray]

Knowing that you will not read anything, let me help you on your way

Rice Christian is a term used, usually pejoratively, to describe someone who has formally declared himself/herself a Christian for material benefits rather than for religious reasons.
"Rice Christians.". Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable.

"Baptists Tired of Being Swindled by Rice Christians".
http://www.christianaggression.org/item_display.php?type=ARTICLES&id=1121137359

Note: Even the Christian evangelists are tired of this swindle.

 

[Ray]

There is no US Goverment conspiracy to impose Christianity on India. thats absurd.

Indeed, and if you were Sir Oracle, then it is the 3rd World alone which is absurd.

Interestingly, you have not been able to debunk a word with any facts.

Get real!

Let me help you.

White House-Christian Coalition nexus

The American press is replete with reports on Bush's largesse to faith-based organisations. They say it's his "return gift" to the Christian Right for having loyally supported his presidential campaign. The Christian Coalition, founded by American TV evangelist and head of the multi-billion Christian Broadcasting Network (CBN), Pat Robertson, played a crucial role in the 2000 election. Recently, in his TV programme, Club 700, broadcast on CBN, Robertson created a stir by announcing that he is confident Bush will win the 2004 election in a "blowout" because God has told him so.

Indeed, Bush is keen to retain what we call the votebank and Americans 'the base'. After all, the Far Right Christian evangelists have also been the most loyal backers of his hardline militarism in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere.

But there is another, perhaps more important, reason why Bush is keen on supporting his evangelist friends who run huge transnational missionary organisations (TMOs). In the decade 1990-2000 they ran a global intelligence operation so complex and sophisticated that its scale and implications are no less than staggering. This operation has put in place a system which enables the US government to access any ethnographic information on any location virtually at the click of the mouse. This network in India, established with funding and strategic assistance from US-based TMOs, gives US intelligence agencies virtually real time access to every nook and corner of the country. (See 'List of TMOs Active in India')

Since Bush's ascendancy to the presidency this network of networks has multiplied rapidly in India. Bush supports conversion in India because he supports those American TMOs who fund and strategise conversion activities in this country. Organisations like the International Mission Board, Southern Baptist Convention, Christian Aid, World Vision, Seventh Day Adventist Church and multi-billion enterprises run by evangelists like Pat Robertson, Billy Graham and Roger Houtsma, amongst many others, were instrumental in running a coordinated conversion campaign in India under the banner of AD2000. These later became the Joshua Project and when the decade-long movement officially closed down in March 2001, Joshua Project II was launched to sustain conversions and intelligence-gathering. Graham's TMO, Billy Graham Evangelist Association, supports conversion activities in Gurgaon, Haryana, and Kolkata.

When AD2000 was conceived for India, the plan was based on a military model with the intent to invade, occupy, control, or subjugate its population. It was based on solid intelligence emanating from the ground and well-researched information on various facets of selected people groups. The idea was to send out spying missions to source micro details on religion and culture. The social and economic divisions in the various Indian communities were closely examined. Given the oppressive and institutionalised caste system in the Hindu society, American evangelical strategists chalked out plans for reaching these various "unmixable" caste groups. The many faultlines running through the country-divisions in terms of ethnicity, caste, creed, language and class-were all factored in during the generation of ethnographic data.

North India was designated the core target of American evangelists. It was described as the "core of the core of the core" of a worldwide evangelical movement conceived by fundamentalist American missionaries. This movement that took shape over the 1990s, has now taken off because of a unique collaboration between the American government and US-based evangelical mission agencies. In the 1990s this movement was shaped by the World Evangelical Fellowship (an international alliance of national evangelical alliances), working with the AD2000 movement. It brought together a wide variety of individuals and organisations, under the single goal of achieving "a church for every people and the gospel for every person by the year 2000." Its focus was missionary mobilisation and church planting in India and other regions of the world where the Christian population was negligible. This movement was also a massive intelligence gathering exercise funded and supported by American missionary organisations that were responsible for the election of George W Bush.

Ah, but then it is 3rd world media, right?

 

[Ray]

Let us look at it this way.

If souls are to be harvested, then can they not be harvested by Indian Christians?

Where is the necessity for American and Western preachers to Bible thump.

Do Indian preachers Bible thump in say Afghanistan or Iraq or Philippines or Indonesia?

American and Western preachers Bible thump in India because they use MONEY to lure and they are better equipped for audio visual chicanery.

Herd of a scoundrel called Benny Hinn?

Enacting demonstration of, a phenomenon he dubs "The Anointing"—the power purportedly given by God and transmitted through Hinn to carry out supernatural acts.

Miracle healing and such total tommy rot to fool the gullible village folks!

In December 2006, BHM sent out a mailing asking for donations towards a new Gulfstream G4SP jet valued at an estimated US$36 million and costing over US$600,000/year to maintain and operate. The 22-seat craft was purchased in 2007 and christened "Dove One".

That much for the sack and ashes that Christian missionaries are supposed to embrace.

And this much for his purity:

In July 2010, both Hinn and fellow televangelist Paula White denied allegations in the National Enquirer claiming that the two were engaged in an affair. In February 2011, Hinn was sued by the Christian publishing house Strang Communications, which claimed that a relationship with White did occur and that Hinn had violated the morality clause of his contract with the company.

Heard of Dinesh D'Souza?

On October 16, 2012, Warren Smith of World Magazine published an article alleging that at a September 2012 conference, D'Souza introduced a young woman, Denise Odie Joseph II, as his fiancée while he was still legally married to Brubaker. Smith also alleged that D'Souza subsequently filed for divorce on October 4, 2012, the very same day Smith talked to him.

On October 17, D'Souza responded that while this was true, his wife had demanded a separation when he moved to New York two years earlier and the divorce filing was a cumulation of weeks of discussion with his law firm, which he alleged Smith knew prior to publishing his article. He went on to state:

" I had no idea that it is considered wrong in Christian circles to be engaged prior to being divorced, even though in a state of separation and in divorce proceedings. Obviously I would not have introduced Denise as my fiancée at a Christian apologetics conference if I had thought or known I was doing something wrong. But as a result of all this, and to avoid even the appearance of impropriety, Denise and I have decided to suspend our engagement. "

How pathetic is this Christian evangelist that he does not not he cannot have sex with another woman before annulment of his marriage!

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Politics and religion should be banned from discussion on DFI.

 

[Ray]

Politics and religion should be banned from discussion on DFI.

That is where you are wrong.

While one has great regards for the US, it does not mean that anyone from the US can go away rubbishing India without cause and fact.

One must discuss or else one will never understand each other,

Yet at the same time, facts must be presented and not given short shrift by stating that other religions are 'inferior'.

I am well aware of that Project Joshua is doing. One has to be in India to realise it. One cannot rubbish it because of patriotic and religious consideration and think we are some naked natives running wild in the Bush.

The 3rd world has a long way to go, but one cannot use the word for disparaging in a broad sense.

Present the facts and none can deny.

As the Good Book says - As ye Sow, So Shall Ye Reap!

 

[W.G.Ewald]

That is where you are wrong.

While one has great regards for the US, it does not mean that anyone from the US can go away rubbishing India without cause and fact.

One must discuss or else one will never understand each other,

Yet at the same time, facts must be presented and not given short shrift by stating that other religions are 'inferior'.

I am well aware of that Project Joshua is doing. One has to be in India to realise it. One cannot rubbish it because of patriotic and religious consideration and think we are some naked natives running wild in the Bush.

The 3rd world has a long way to go, but one cannot use the word for disparaging in a broad sense.

Present the facts and none can deny.

As the Good Book says - As ye Sow, So Shall Ye Reap!

I'll just repeat my belief that no thread on DFI about politics or religion has contributed to rational discussion about defense issues, and leave it at that. Realistically, I must then choose which discussions to participate in, and which to avoid.

 

[Ray]

I'll just repeat my belief that no thread on DFI about politics or religion has contributed to rational discussion about defense issues, and leave it at that. Realistically, I must then choose which discussions to participate in, and which to avoid.

Actually there is hardly any contribution to real defence threads.

I have tried many a time.

It is on the technology threads that find some discussion.

Even those have no rationality.

But then it is not here alone, it is in all forums, be they of defence or anything else.

That is life.

I accept that fact of life with good grace.

 

[Das ka das]

Wow what a coincidence, the university where I am studying is gonna have a "World Harvest" seminar coming Saturday and Sunday....I for one know that at least one crypto-Hindu will attend