Is the LCH a true attack helicopter or is RUDRA better?

[Kunal Biswas]

RPG and Heavy Caliber Rounds were always a thread for any kind of terrain hugging airborne vehicle, Even 7.62x54r can be very effective to even heavy gun ship like AH-64 ..

On the radio you can hear 1-2 is hit and going down, second part of the vid right at the end you can see the guy shooting directly at the Apache and then the pilot gets hit in the shoulder

Everything is destructible , during 65 war a jawan took down a F-86 just by firing his Bren LMG ..

even today quite a lot of helos are attacked by Rifles and rocket launchers which are normally neither radar oriented nor heat....

 

[Pulkit]

:confused2::confused2::confused2: same to same...

RPG and Heavy Caliber Rounds were always a thread for any kind of terrain hugging airborne vehicle, Even 7.62x54r can be very effective to even heavy gun ship like AH-64 ..



Everything is destructible , during 65 war a jawan took down a F-86 just by firing his Bren LMG ..

 

[ninja85]

Shape and Materiel does impact on guidance of radar guided SAM ..

Infrared on other hand follows heat, Flairs are the countermeasures ..

but still with all the countermeasures on lch or rudra,modern missile systems are so good that ratio to get hit is 50:50.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

There are other countermeasure for them too, Rudra has those and LCH will do too ..

but still with all the countermeasures on lch or rudra,modern missile systems are so good that ratio to get hit is 50:50.

 

[Pulkit]

There is still a question left unanswered ...
WHy 20mm gun in LCH and Rudra instead of 30mm....? @Kunal Biswas can u put some light on it?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The system chosen for LCH and Rudra are one of most lightest cannon and turret in the globe ..

20mm what LCH & Rudra use are quite effective against Infantry, Buildings and Armored vehicles from top ..

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

There is still a question left unanswered ...
WHy 20mm gun in LCH and Rudra instead of 30mm....? @Kunal Biswas can u put some light on it?

rudra and lch are designed to fight at 20000+feet where light weight is important ,30mm gun will add more weight and ammo will also be of more weight ,heli using 30mm are not designed for such a height

 

[Pulkit]

They are quite effective but are they as effective as 30mm ? they are good enough I think thats what you wanna say
..... but wont 30mm in LCH and Rudra add to there ability?

The system chosen for LCH and Rudra are one of most lightest cannon and turret in the globe ..

20mm what LCH & Rudra use are quite effective against Infantry, Buildings and Armored vehicles from top ..

21300 ft for LCH ..... M621 cannon 20mm and GIAT 30M 781 30mm have 20 kg diff 45 kg and 65kg resp... (GIAT 30 is 120kg extra info)...
I really dont feel only 20Kg would have made such a diff.... Just an example....

rudra and lch are designed to fight at 20000+feet where light weight is important ,30mm gun will add more weight and ammo will also be of more weight ,heli using 30mm are not designed for such a height

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

The GIAT 30M 781
Primarily intended for helicopter use
and offered in several fixed, podded,
and turreted installations. It is 1.87 m
(6 ft 2 in) long with a total system
weight of 65 kg (143 lb). It is designed
to fire the ADEN/DEFA 30x113mm B
rounds. The weight of the projectile
vary from 244 g (8.6 oz) for HEI to 270 g
(9.5 oz) for APHEI-SD. Typical muzzle
velocity is 810 m/s (2. 657 ft/s) with a
rate of fire of 750 rounds per minute.
Given its considerable recoil, it is
typically used for single shots or
controlled bursts rather than
continuous fire. The 30 M781 is
presently used on the Eurocopter
Tiger, and is also offered for naval use
as part of the NARWHAL (NAval
Remote Weapon High Accurate and
Light) system.
@ pulkit

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

Weight 45.5 kg (100.31 lb) Length 2,207 mm (86.9 in) Width 202 mm (8.0 in) (in mount) Height 245 mm (9.6 in) (in mount) Cartridge 20x102mm Caliber 20mm Action Blowback operated Rate of fire 800 rounds/min Muzzle velocity 1,005 m/s (3,297 ft/s) (AP-T) 985 m/s (3,231.6 ft/s) (HEI and TP) Feed system Open-link M12 belt The M621 is a 20 mm automatic cannon of French design, developed by Nexter as on-board armament for armored vehicles, aircraft, helicopters and small coastal vessels of the French Navy. Variants THL 20 Turreted cannon for helicopters.[1] POD NC 621 Cannon pod for helicopters and light aircraft.[2] SH20 Door mounted cannon for helicopters. [3] CP 20 Pintle-mounted cannon for vehicles and boats.[4] 15A Cannon for naval ships.[5] NARWHAL Remote-controlled naval gun.

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

it looks only 20kg but 200N force will be applied downward on dhruv,30mm m781 gun only fires 750 rounds,weight of ammo will be more for 30mm, lesser muzzle velocity,IT IS NOT A GUN FOR CONTINUOUS FIRE SO THE 20 MM M621 IS BETTER and source is wikipedia

 

[Pulkit]

are u trying to say that a heli that has Max. takeoff weight: 5,800 kg and weighs 2,250 kg will mind that 20kg
Regarding the gun .... I am not suggesting that particular gun .. but could have been any other 30mm gun which satisfies your req....
and 30mm will be more effective on armoured vehicles tanks and all as compared to 20mm.....

it looks only 20kg but 200N force will be applied downward on dhruv,30mm m781 gun only fires 750 rounds,weight of ammo will be more for 30mm, lesser muzzle velocity,IT IS NOT A GUN FOR CONTINUOUS FIRE SO THE 20 MM M621 IS BETTER and source is wikipedia

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

are u trying to say that a heli that has Max. takeoff weight: 5,800 kg and weighs 2,250 kg will mind that 20kg
Regarding the gun .... I am not suggesting that particular gun .. but could have been any other 30mm gun which satisfies your req....
and 30mm will be more effective on armoured vehicles tanks and all as compared to 20mm.....

tell a gun of 30mm ,here 20mm looks more efficient

 

[Kunal Biswas]

See there are many kind of 20mm for Gunships and other platforms ..

There are many kind of 20mm round in service all over the world, Few examples >>

From left the third is LCH`s 20mm ..

LCH & Rudra use 20 × 102 mm, 20 x 102mm in HEAT or AP or HEAP can cut through well protected MBT with ERA from Roof tops and sides so does other parts of an MBT, This round is used by some of the powerful Anti-material Rifles also ..

The 20 x 102 is a round specific for LCH and Rudra for effective fire without losing the ability to cruise at high altitudes, Some powerful 30mm could have been used but this would seriously cripple Our machines hi-altitude preform ace which they are primarily meant to operate ..

Must read this very good post from @DivineHeretic, He explain in very nice way >>

@sydsnyper, I'll add to Kunal's explanation.

The LCH was designed to be combat operable at very high altitudes. Understand that I mean combat operable means being able to do the entire envelop of maneuvers and tasks. Many helicopters can reach the same (or nearly the same) altitude as the LCH, but not one is combat capable at that altitude. And that's the reason why you take the service ceiling of the Apaches and the lot with a bag of salt.

To enable the sterling high altitude performance, every extra kilo that could be shed without compromising fighting capability was shed. The choice of a chain gun (20mm) is a logical choice to that end. As Kunal explained, a gatling gun is much heavier than a chain gun.But that is not all, a heavier gun requires a stronger and thus heavier support structure. Thus you cut two causes of high weight by going for a lighter single barrel gun.

And about 30mm chain guns, well the Apache has that. But why shouldn't you use it on the LCH? I'll show you.

The average weight of the M621 cannon on LCH is roughly 46 Kg. The 30mm M230 chain gun on AH64D weighs 56kg. So, a difference of 10 kg.
Not much, I should think. But then,

A single 20mm round will weigh approximately 100gm. For 400 rounds, this turns out to 40 kg.
On the other hand, a single 30mm HEI round will weigh 240gm. for 400 rounds, this turns out to be 96 kg.

So as you can see, a simple shift from 20mm to 30mm caibre will increase weight by 106kg, which is big considering the developers of LCH were fighting to reduce this much weight for quite sometime. .

rudra and lch are designed to fight at 20000+feet where light weight is important ,30mm gun will add more weight and ammo will also be of more weight ,heli using 30mm are not designed for such a height

but could have been any other 30mm gun which satisfies your req....and 30mm will be more effective on armoured vehicles tanks and all as compared to 20mm.....

 

[SRIJAN SRIVASTAVA]

LCH has digital armour nut i do not think that it is going to be effective in the high ranges of himalaya.

 

[Singh]

LCH has digital armour nut i do not think that it is going to be effective in the high ranges of himalaya.

What is digital armour ?

 

[abhi_the _gr8_maratha]

thanx sir @Kunal Biswas, I was telling him same but lack of information and experience made of unable to put my points properly and thanx for sharing valuable information and @Pulkit one more point if you fire a bullet you will feel some backward force applied by gun, 30mm will exert more force and at high altitude like 20000 ft ,it can affect badly cause density of air is lesser and heli can lose its speed

 

[Pulkit]

@abhi_the _gr8_maratha and @Kunal Biswas thanks for the insight its been a really convincing facts discussed here......

I hope in future we make a heavier heli where we can use the 30mm gun... I m repeatedl talking on 30mm because some where I read that 30mm compared to 20mm .... 30m will surely be more deadly...

Though agreeing to each and every point being raised here....
thnx for addressing my query...

thanx sir @Kunal Biswas, I was telling him same but lack of information and experience made of unable to put my points properly and thanx for sharing valuable information and @Pulkit one more point if you fire a bullet you will feel some backward force applied by gun, 30mm will exert more force and at high altitude like 20000 ft ,it can affect badly cause density of air is lesser and heli can lose its speed

 

[Arunsharma885]

very convincing discussion buddies, 20mm nd 30mm rounds have thier own strengths and weakness, coming on the intresting part i would also like to see a heavier attack heli from our country ( has anyone seen the 105mm artillery piece on AC130) it seems like wow of a show.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

I have the same question, if the Rudra can do the same stuff and more than the LCH, why have the LCH. Is it being designed for very specific roles ? Does the LCH have better armor than Rudra ?

Rudra is infact not the dedicated attack helicopter. It is a chopper which can carry soldiers and have some attack role. LCH is a dedicated chopper. It can continuously cruise at 280 KM speed at a very high altitude with full load of a loads of weapon. LCH is much better attack Chopper.