Is HAL inefficient? Should Govt. split it?

[Mad Indian]

BTW, don't think LCA mk1 is the answer for our mmrca woes. If we trust HAL these dogs would deliver the 200lca only by 2050 when the rest of the world would be inducting 7th or 8th gen aircraft

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Dude stop peddling nonsense..even by the account of French and Israeli components being the reason for increased cost, the 60%higher costs (as per Parikkar itself) can't be explained unless the su30MKI has 40% or so western involvement by value. only LCA fanboys can make such adsurb claims that avionics and other minor components constitute 40% of the aircraft cost.

HAL is pathetic and has been the bane of India for which its fanboys blame IAF

so i am sure that when rafale fanboys says that spectra alone accounts for 30% of rafale price

then you will call that also as bullshit & crap

agrred ?

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

BTW, don't think LCA mk1 is the answer for our mmrca woes. If we trust HAL these dogs would deliver the 200lca only by 2050 when the rest of the world would be inducting 7th or 8th gen aircraft

hehe

Tejas is not supposed to solve MMRCA woes - it never was supposed to

Tejas is supposed to fill the light fighter / interceptor category and to

1.
fill up the nos for the 60 sqds for IAF

2.
to lower operating costs of the IAF

the alternative to MMRCA - rafale EFT is
a combo of Su30MKI & Tejas NOT tejas alone

 

[Mad Indian]

so i am sure that when rafale fanboys says that spectra alone accounts for 30% of rafale price

then you will call that also as bullshit & crap

agrred ?

As usual, you are peddling nonsense, just like you did in the other forum. This is not about rafale. This is about your claims. Are you going to claim with a straight face that avionics form 40% of the components of MKI by worth?

 

[Mad Indian]

hehe

Tejas is not supposed to solve MMRCA woes - it never was supposed to

Tejas is supposed to fill the light fighter / interceptor category and to

1.
fill up the nos for the 60 sqds for IAF

2.
to lower operating costs of the IAF

the alternative to MMRCA - rafale EFT is
a combo of Su30MKI & Tejas NOT tejas alone

How so typical. So the su30mki+ LCA combo , which you are peddling here, does not include increased orders for LCA ? #moron

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

How so typical. So the su30mki+ LCA combo , which you are peddling here, does not include increased orders for LCA ? #moron

it does
it is inevitable

but there is differene in logic

LCA does not substitute for MMRCA - Rafale / EFT etc

 

[Mad Indian]

it does
it is inevitable

but there is differene in logic

LCA does not substitute for MMRCA - Rafale / EFT etc

Then what exactly were you countering when you quoted me to post that BS? Typical. #moron

As I already said, counting on LCA to fill the gap left by mmrca is suicidal as even the LCA fanboys here can't defend even with their head in the ass logic.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

@Mad Indian

you have not answered my two simple questions


1.
Most of the components built for Su30MKI in india does not mean India has that tech or IP of that tech
eg.
we build Su30MKi engines in india - but we pay royalty / Licensing fees / ToT fees to the russain OEM to make those engines and to learn those tech

or
if you think not then answer a simple question
why do we need to import engines for tejas
if we can build Su30MKI eninges on our own then why cant we build engines on our own for Tejas
answer this simple question

2.
so i am sure that when rafale fanboys says that spectra alone accounts for 30% of rafale price

then you will call that also as bullshit & crap

agrred ?

answer those 2 first

 

[Mad Indian]

.
Most of the components built for Su30MKI in india does not mean India has that tech or IP of that tech
eg.
we build Su30MKi engines in india - but we pay royalty / Licensing fees / ToT fees to the russain OEM to make those engines and to learn those tech

Another bs post.

So according to you when the article quotes the two manufacturing prices, you "assume" one is inclusive of tech dev cost and other is without it?

Besides, if you were not a moron, you would understand that the wages in india is several times lower than that of Russia. So the cost of manufacturing should actually be lower here if the hal was anything close to competent.

so i am sure that when rafale fanboys says that spectra alone accounts for 30% of rafale price

then you will call that also as bullshit & crap

agrred ?

This is why I always skip your nonsense in the other forum when reading the discussions between professionals.. For the second time, we are talking about Tejas and not rafale.

if you think not then answer a simple question
why do we need to import engines for tejas
if we can build Su30MKI eninges on our own then why cant we build engines on our own for Tejas
answer this simple question

Obfuscation of logic, not related to the argument. How typical.

 

[Mad Indian]

Since I value my time, I am not going to reply unless you make some argument which is not nonsense or derailment or obfuscation. I don't have the patience of vstoljockey or randomradio to deal with your nonsense.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Since I value my time, I am not going to reply unless you make some argument which is not nonsense or derailment or obfuscation. I don't have the patience of vstoljockey or randomradio to deal with your nonsense.

your choice and prerogative entirely

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

the costs go up by 50% dont double up as i explained with figures in my last post
also
the avionics, sensors etc are the things which are major costs because that is what all it is about

some french members claims that spectra on rafale costs 30% of the rafale price

i know we are talking about Su30MKI but the example of Rafale was to show that increasingly the costing is in avionics & electronics not airframe

I did not even quote Rafale. What I need is you to back up your claims 2,3 and 4 by providing some source. Otherwise it does not make sense, because we are comparing cost with cost and not some add-ons to the manufacturing cost.

I would expect Indian manufacturing is cheap and hence the add-ons India puts on MKI should be more or less be compensated by that. But not.

Ofcourse, it is pure incompetency even if the cost is 50% higher. In any case, given any source, it is greater than 50% which needs some explanation by HAL.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

I did not even quote Rafale. What I need is you to back up your claims 2,3 and 4 by providing some source. Otherwise it does not make sense, because we are comparing cost with cost and not some add-ons to the manufacturing cost.

I would expect Indian manufacturing is cheap and hence the add-ons India puts on MKI should be more or less be compensated by that. But not.

Ofcourse, it is pure incompetency even if the cost is 50% higher. In any case, given any source, it is greater than 50% which needs some explanation by HAL.

it is a fact that

Su30MKi uses French & Isreali avionics & electronic subsystems

it is also a fact that western systems are way costly than russian systems

the example of rafale was given just to prove that electronic & avionic & sensor systems are very costly and make up a substantial bulk of fighter pricing

 

[Yumdoot]

From the article- Hal takes 400crores to manufacture SU 30 which is manufactured in Russia for 230 crores, which shows how competent Hal thugs are. Hal was the reason MMRCA failed because HAL could not match the manufacturing cost offered by Rafael.

But LCA fanboys have no problem blaming IAF in defence of that pos called Hal

I hate HAL for the retirement planning den it is for the IAF leadership. Basically I don't want to do them a favour but some of your points/data are either wrong or incomplete or your conclusions are wrong.

HAL was not the cause of the failure of MMRCA. HAL could not have manufactured the Rafale for the French on road price . The French simply told our people - oh sorry we had quoted the price based on a 4.5 hour day because we are highly efficient and HAL cannot do it because it is inefficient and works 8 hour days. So HAL cost goes up and MMRCA cost goes up and RFP does not hold. Also because HAL is inefficient and not reliable so we will not guarantee their output.

Reality was that Dassault had nearly no spare production capability and was relying on depreciated plants and amortized R&D and just plain lying to get to L-1 status. First rule of costing is that you if have no production capacity left then you accept whatever is there till the time you can make at least the fixed costs. For Dassault there always will be fixed costs to be recovered because there will always be expensive R&D going on. Common sense dictates that if you cannot do it yourself then you have it done outside (outsourcing), even if its more costly then the home production. In such cases the profitability of the order would be low but the overall profits for the company, will be maximized. Now normally its ok if you are concentrated on the profitability but then in that case they should not have come in and quoted a French price when they had no real production capacity.

Read this to understand how poor their production capability is.
http://aviationweek.com/defense/dassault-rafale-export-sales-seeing-new-life

On top of that they 'choose' Reliance Industries for making Rafale. Now who in right mind would believe that RIL will be able to make Rafale cheaper compared to HAL. RIL would have to start from zero.

People have missed the whole point about negotiations with Dassault. They do not want to have the deal. They just wanted to increase profitability because Rafale is a damn expensive end product. The only way profitability per order can be boosted is by making sure the Dassault line is kept busy to the extreme possible but only till the time the capital is released from a particular product and becomes available for the next product. After that the product is a drag on the system.

Coincidently for Dassault they landed up with a windfall. After IAF selected Rafale on technical grounds Dassault landed up with more orders for their old product and that means that older Rafale lines too can be kept in 'very busy mode' for a few more years at the same/desired profitability per order levels. Now they wanted to have this too and maximize their company profits too and not just remain content with releasing the capital from the productline with higher profitability.

So now they have an even more interest in delaying the 36 on order from India. They have a great deal of difficulty in implementing orders that they already have. They are getting high profitability orders that IAF interest has enabled even while IAF is losing squad strength.

These are business strategies and your medicine degree and high client fee won't help you understand these things.

Reality is the Anthony showmotion ideation and IAF salivation for its Driver ki naukri did the deal in. IAF leadership has itself to blame for the mess.

Good riddance, I say.

There is more but then I need to say good night for tonight.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

I did not even quote Rafale. What I need is you to back up your claims 2,3 and 4 by providing some source. Otherwise it does not make sense, because we are comparing cost with cost and not some add-ons to the manufacturing cost.

I would expect Indian manufacturing is cheap and hence the add-ons India puts on MKI should be more or less be compensated by that. But not.

Ofcourse, it is pure incompetency even if the cost is 50% higher. In any case, given any source, it is greater than 50% which needs some explanation by HAL.

ook
here we go

customs duty on import : max is 28% - but for defence items purchased through International Competetive Bidding - aka MMRCA international competetion it is 0 ( yes Zero)

Excise duty : it is 12.36% - can be waived

Vat : as per state laws -
inerstate 2% CST

income tax : effective tax rate 30%
minimum alternate tax :20%

so at the most
HAL will pay
excise duty : 12.36%
VAT / CST : as per state laws / 2%
Income tax : 30%

total : 44.36%

AT THE LEAST HAL will pay

Excise Duty : 0 - if it is waived
VAT / CST : as per state laws / 2%
Income tax / MAT : MAT 20%

at the least HAL will pay :22%

while imports in ICT aka MMRCA will be duty free

that also explains why flyaway (direct imports - rafaels made in france) of rafale will be cheaper than those mfg by HAL in India

what is applicable to import v/s domestic mfg of Su30MKI is also applicable to Rafales

Links here

read page nos 24 through 30

https://www.pwc.in/assets/pdfs/publications/2013/changing-dynamics-final-copy-feb-4-2013.pdf

i hope that settles one point

 

[Mad Indian]

I hate HAL for the retirement planning den it is for the IAF leadership. Basically I don't want to do them a favour but some of your points/data are either wrong or incomplete or your conclusions are wrong.

I dint pull the data from anywhere. It is there in the article I quoted.

HAL was not the cause of the failure of MMRCA. HAL could not have manufactured the Rafale for the French on road price . The French simply told our people - oh sorry we had quoted the price based on a 4.5 hour day because we are highly efficient and HAL cannot do it because it is inefficient and works 8 hour days. So HAL cost goes up and MMRCA cost goes up and RFP does not hold. Also because HAL is inefficient and not reliable so we will not guarantee their output.

I don't actually believe the rafale fanboys when they claimed that it was HAL which threw the wrench in the mmrca, but now that I have seems a similar comparative prices of HAL and Sukhoi manufacturing the same aircraft, I have no choice but to accept the argument that Rafael fanboys were right.

If HAL takes 100% more money to manufacture than Rus, it is of course the going to take similar high % of cost compared to dassault to manufacture Rafale.

Reality was that Dassault had nearly no spare production capability and was relying on depreciated plants and amortized R&D and just plain lying to get to L-1 status. First rule of costing is that you if have no production capacity left then you accept whatever is there till the time you can make at least the fixed costs

Except even the article you linked claims the same thing- Rafale could not ensure that the cost of the jets produced by HAL will be the same as that of the jets they offered.

You can use all your jargon to justify the crap HAL does, because of your agenda, but I don't buy it for one second.

On top of that they 'choose' Reliance Industries for making Rafale. Now who in right mind would believe that RIL will be able to make Rafale cheaper compared to HAL. RIL would have to start from zero.

Any one without an agenda with HAL can believe that.

 

[Mad Indian]

Reality is the Anthony showmotion ideation and IAF salivation for its Driver ki naukri did the deal in. IAF leadership has itself to blame for the mess.

Good riddance, I say.

There is more but then I need to say good night for tonight.

Yes good riddence now that we have to rely on the incompetent traitors at HAL for our national security(LCA), hoping against reality that those dogs would miraculously abide by their own timeline, which they have time and again failed so far.

 

[Mad Indian]

Vat : as per state laws -
inerstate 2% CST

income tax : effective tax rate 30%
minimum alternate tax :20%

so at the most
HAL will pay
excise duty : 12.36%
VAT / CST : as per state laws / 2%
Income tax : 30%

total : 44.36%

yeah right. We must take into account the customs tax, excise tax , income tax, XYZ tax for bonus for calculating MANUFACTURING COST of the aircraft manufactured within India .


The source you have given already states that military equipment meant for use by the govt is exempt from most of the taxes. Do you even read want you post?

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

yeah right. We must take into account the customs tax, excise tax , income tax, XYZ tax for bonus for calculating MANUFACTURING COST of the aircraft manufactured within India .

the GOI cahrges excise VAT CST Income tax precisely for goods mfg in india

they dont charge those for thing mfg in france rusia

 

[Mad Indian]

the GOI cahrges excise VAT CST Income tax precisely for goods mfg in india

they dont charge those for thing mfg in france rusia

Not really, did you even read the link? Besides, when did 2-4% VAT amount to 60% increase in prices for manufacturing? And do you know that VAT exists in France and Rus too, EU as a whole has 20% VAT iirc .