Is China slowly loosing its grip on Pak ??

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by mattster, Sep 26, 2009.

  1. mattster

    mattster Respected Member Senior Member

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    I am wondering with all the involvement of the US in Pakistan - is the US slowly displacing the traditional Pak ally China. China and the US are strategic rivals.....so the greater the US influence, the weaker the Chinese influence becomes.

    What happens to China's "contain India thru Pakistan" strategy, with the US taking a major role in Pakistan with aid and weapons, and a huge new embassy expansion in Islamabad ??

    Could it be that "Pakistan is finally realizing that its entire Jihadi strategy is slowly backfiring on itself and its not worth pursuing, even if the Chinese want it.

    China is losing its leverage with Pakistan, and how does it that impact China's India policy ??

    There is no one now to do their dirty work for them anymore. Pak is too unrealiable !!

    I would like to hear what other DFI members think ??
     
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  3. ppgj

    ppgj Senior Member Senior Member

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    china will definitely be uneasy about the whole thing. the relationship will be strained but not to the extent it will find pakistan not useful.

    if USA does it for them why they bother? they will have hearty laugh and save some bucks.
    they use it as a state policy particularly when it comes to india. don't see it changing. china has problems in xinjiang. they want pakistan to control the uighurs in their territory.

    that is why they are being belligerant at the indian borders.

    pakistan has its own reservations about USA going back into history. china knows it and hence will use it on its own terms.
     
  4. no smoking

    no smoking Senior Member Senior Member

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    That is good. US's support for Pak is for 2 things: 1, anti-terrorism 2, contain india's influence in south asea. Containning china is india and other asea allies' job. But on the supporting Pak, US and china have same target.

    Even better, we save some money and india got more headache.

    No chinese want Jihadi. Please provide some evidance except some terrorists are using weapon made in china.

    Losing leverage? As long as india is still the top threat, Pak will always need china because China can provide greater support to Pak in potential war against india.

    Whether Pak and india are the enemy to each other is not china wants it to be, just because you are.
     
  5. mattster

    mattster Respected Member Senior Member

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    No smoking.....my friend.....what are you smoking ??
    It must be some of the nice ganja from Xinjiang.

    If you think that the US involvement is not going to affect China's standing with the Pak government, then you really are dreaming. You are going to get your rear-end slowly but surely pushed out by the US. The US is not going to take too kindly to having a deep-water port in Pakistan for Chinese subs.

    Plus they are going to apply a lot of pressure on Pak to slow down the infiltration and anti-india activities too. Now China has to do its own dirty work by itself.

    Pak cannot do any heavy-lifting. You guys have to get your hands dirty, and the whole world is watching. The moment you get a bit too aggressive on the India-China border, everyone else in South Asia will start drawing their own conclusions about China's military rise.

    Its getting kinda dicey for you guys. The stakes have just gone up !!!
     
  6. no smoking

    no smoking Senior Member Senior Member

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    Oh, really? Evidence please.
     
  7. Vladimir79

    Vladimir79 Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    It certainly looks that way. USA is giving billions in military and financial aid of which China is not even close to matching. The last project China and Pakistan had was JF-17 and Pakistan had to pay through the noise for it. USA is giving weapons far better for free.

    Excellent question... Pakistan's need for China as a counterbalancing force will always be there as long as India and Pakistan are at odds. USA wants India to be contained as well as China. It is all part of the yankee strategy to have everyone contained so they can dominate.

    The majority of Pakistan does not want a "Jihadi" strategy. They are paying dearly for not addressing the issue under Mushy's dictatorship. ISI is so infilitrated with Taliban it is hard to flush them out and as we all know, Pakistan's elected government never actually runs the country. It is a militarised state trying to build a fledgling democracy against great odds. China doesn't want a Jihad istrategy either since they know it can backfire as it has in their own Uigher districts. I think everyone now is in consenus that radical Islam has to go. The real key is flushing those radicals out of ISI.

    Pakistan still needs an alliance with China, but their influence on Pak will be greatly diminished at the expense of whatever the US has in store to conflict with what China wants. At the moment, the only obvious thing is becoming Pakistan's #1 arms supplier of which China is pushed to second in contract value.

    China seems to be doing their own dirty work now. At least we know who to blame.
     
  8. Vladimir79

    Vladimir79 Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Of course China wants Pak and India to remain enemies. That is the only leverage they have on them now. Pakistan is China's biggest client state and a key to energy and mineral flows to their country. If China loses that trump card they will be reduced in influence to a second rate power with India dominating South Asia uncontested.
     
  9. no smoking

    no smoking Senior Member Senior Member

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    No, you misunderstand me. My point is that Pak will always be india's enemy, no matter what china wants.
     
  10. RPK

    RPK Indyakudimahan Senior Member

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    How long ... In world politics no country is enemy or friend. everybody has influence over the other. Endof the day enemy suffer you will also suffer. If enemy is happy you will be also happy
     
  11. Vladimir79

    Vladimir79 Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Pakistan has far more in common with India than China could ever hope. China fuels the tension to advance their own political agenda. Peace between India and Pakistan is possible despite Chinese efforts to prevent it.
     
  12. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    Appreciate you optimism Vlad.
     
  13. nitesh

    nitesh Mob Control Manager Stars and Ambassadors

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    I agree her vlad has too much of optimism when it comes to India and Pakistan becoming friend.
     
  14. no smoking

    no smoking Senior Member Senior Member

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    There is no one talking about the culture similarity between Pak and China. These 2 countries need each other because they have a common object: india.

    If Pak wants friendship with india, no one can prevent that. Please show me the evidence how china prvent the peace? Selling the weapons? Obviously, our pakistan friends don't agree with you.
     
  15. Vladimir79

    Vladimir79 Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    There is no culture similarity between Pak and China. It is China that is fueling the hate over two countries that have enough in cultural heritage to be brothers.

    China vetoed giving Jaish's Masood Azhar and Cheema Azam sanctions. China trained and armed Al Queda. China occupied Pakistan controlled Kashmir to keep itself entangled in their affairs. Chinese made weapons pop up all the time in the hands of Kashmir rebels. China gives aid to Pakistani regimes that wanted to liberate it... ect.
     
  16. no smoking

    no smoking Senior Member Senior Member

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    Evidence please. Especially, how did china trained and armed Al queda.
    By the way, China sold the weapon to Pak gov. What the Pak gov are gonna do with that weapon is not china's concern. Since india share so much cultrurally with Pak, why don't you complain to Pak.
     
  17. Vladimir79

    Vladimir79 Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    June 21, 2002 Washington Times, "China's military provided training for Afghanistan's Taliban militia and its al Qaeda supporters." Soon after U.S. troops attacked the Taliban forces in Afghanistan, the Times reported, Army Special Forces discovered "30 Chinese-made SA-7s surface-to-air missiles in southeastern Afghanistan." according to a U.S. intelligence report.The intelligence was obtained from anti-Taliban Afghan sources.

    Inside the Ring - China-trained Taliban

    Pak doesn't use the Type 78 gun or any other Chinese recoiless rifles. They use the Carl Gustav. It came from China.

    Chinese Made Anti-Tank Gun Seized in Kashmir
     
  18. no smoking

    no smoking Senior Member Senior Member

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    Come on, a analysis report from 2002? Since USA has been there for almost 10 years, did they find any further information?



    As I said, china sold the weapon to Pak. To this kind of soldier weapon, China has no reponsibility to check to whom the Pak gov will send them. And i also has no doubt it is not hard to buy these weapon from black market, just as south american drug dealers also have lots of US made weapon. Can you conclude that US gov is supporting these criminals based on this?
     
  19. mattster

    mattster Respected Member Senior Member

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    You cannot sell major weapons systems to rogue countries like Pakistan and then say - I'm sorry I cant control what that country does with that weapon - That's bullshit.

    When the US sells weapon systems to India or any other country; they dont expect that country to turn around and then resell those systems to rogue elements and terrorists. There is a huge setback to relations between countries when the buyer country does that.

    China wants to be a global superpower but its leaders think like small-time puppet leaders of banana republic states. If you want to be a Superpower, then behave like a Super-power.

    Stop arming the worst, most violent, sadistic, sick regimes in the developing world in countries like Pakistan, Somalia, Myanmar, Nigeria, Angola, Afghanistan and Indian Maoists groups.

    China's foreign policy is based on using military assistance to get oil and mineral concessions from poor countries. Everybody know it !!
     
  20. Vladimir79

    Vladimir79 Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    The argument is whether China is a destabalising influence, not whether it happened yesterday.

    Pakistan does not buy Chinese recoiless rifles, they use Carl Gustav. China is supplying Kashmir rebels.

    Do S. Amerikan drug dealers have M47s? I doubt it.
     
  21. no smoking

    no smoking Senior Member Senior Member

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    The point is after 10 years, the US still can't come up with new information regard this case, so I doubt this report has any value.



    The problem is Pakistan is not the only one buying chinese weapon, there are lots of other countries doing military deal with china. Do you have direct evidence that China give the weapon to these rebels DIRECTLY?
     

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