Is a stable, prosperous Pakistan in India's Interests?

Is a stable, properous Pakistan in India's interests?


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Ratus Ratus

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Only a "friendly" stable Pakistan is of use to India. We can make a lot of money from their market. And thats what maybe the politicians mean when they say that. Otherwise and unfriendly Pakistan, whether stable or not makes no difference to India. It will have to keep fighting its war against terror.
No. Not in the near or mid term future. Like TR said, its only when the saner elements come to center stage that its possible. But for that the PA and ISI has to lose its culture and become a subordinate of democracy.
Interesting concepts..

The PA has agreed to come under the current GOP so it is a start. That was statement from the COAS himself. Also the US is accepting his statement. They have not themselves said other wise.


BUT

First you have to get to the point of that friendly Pakistan idea starting.
This will not happen if you leave Pakistan to its own devices. It needs guidance like all learning children.
You can not have a friendly Pakistan unless there is a friendly attitude to Pakistan from India. Oddly enough it is a two way process.

Ok there are problems of what appears in insurmountable proportions. But if you want a friendly Pakistan something has to start to get over these mountains.

I am old so I am allowed to reminisce in the past and denounce my enemy for the rest of my life. I am not required to progress I am allowed to hold a grudge. This is the prerogative of my age.

Most of you are not yet in this special group where you can keep holding grudges. You are in the generation where foresight leadership is to come from I hope. You are the group who should be looking at solutions not perpetrating the grudges we old ones hold.
You are supposed to lead us oldies out of our hatred.

But I see from this thread that is something not possible.

There will be no friendly Pakistan; there will be no friendly India.
 

Daredevil

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Interesting concepts..

The PA has agreed to come under the current GOP so it is a start. That was statement from the COAS himself. Also the US is accepting his statement. They have not themselves said other wise.
Sir, this is only so far they get the western AID flowing into Pakistan, which can be used to buy more military hardware to be used against India and, going by Pentagon reports this is exactly what is happening.

A democratic setup in Pakistan will enable US to give AID to pakistan much easier than to a dictatorship otherwise it will be seen as US supporting dictatorship while on the other hand US making noises for installing democratic setups else where in the world.

The moment AID tap is turned off, a coup d'e tat will follow and a dictatorship regime will be installed in a jiffy.

BUT

First you have to get to the point of that friendly Pakistan idea starting.
This will not happen if you leave Pakistan to its own devices. It needs guidance like all learning children.
You can not have a friendly Pakistan unless there is a friendly attitude to Pakistan from India. Oddly enough it is a two way process.

Ok there are problems of what appears in insurmountable proportions. But if you want a friendly Pakistan something has to start to get over these mountains.

I am old so I am allowed to reminisce in the past and denounce my enemy for the rest of my life. I am not required to progress I am allowed to hold a grudge. This is the prerogative of my age.

Most of you are not yet in this special group where you can keep holding grudges. You are in the generation where foresight leadership is to come from I hope. You are the group who should be looking at solutions not perpetrating the grudges we old ones hold.
You are supposed to lead us oldies out of our hatred.

But I see from this thread that is something not possible.

There will be no friendly Pakistan; there will be no friendly India.
Sir, there are many instances where Pakistan has cut-off the hand that India has extended as a mark of friendship. Major example being Kargil. While the then Prime minister AB Vajpayee was busy in initiating a peace process in Lahore, our dear general Musharaff was busy plotting for Kargil and rest is history. This doesn't stop here, ISI hand has been shown to be involved in the hijacking of AirIndia passenger flight and landing it in Kandahar, a place where their puppet Taliban regime was installed. It has brought much embarrassment to India not only in paying ransom money but also releasing 3 terrorists who have surfaced within no time in Pakistan and one of them Masood Azhar is Amir of Jaish-e-Mohammad which was involved in the attack of our parliament, which is the temple of our constitution and our pride. Incidentally, the hijackers of the flight were all found to be Pakistani. Need I say more, last but not the least, the latest Mumbai attacks by ISI created terrorist organization LeT.

How can one expect to extend the hand of friendship when it is being continuously chopped off from the other side, which you have already mentioned in you last sentence.

Future doesn't seem to be bright for Indo-Pak relationship unless Pakistani Army comes under firm leadership of Pakistani democratic setup not some puppet democratic setup that is installed now.
 

Ray

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Whether it is in the interest or not of India to have a stable Pakistan is not really the issue. The nub of the issue is whether Pakistan is interested in becoming stable.

Historically, there has hardly any indication that Pakistan wants stability. Pakistan has been chaotic since Independence. Balochistan and the NWFP declined joining Pakistan, but were coerced. Then without stabilising a nascent State, they embarked on war with India. The Bengalis started the Bengali Language Movement since they refused to accept Urdu being imposed on them and there were also the anti Ahmediyya riots! Thus, Pakistan was a motley amalgam of peoples who were reluctant players of Pakistan, and as if that was not enough indication of a divided society, they also divided society and encouraged sectarianism. They struggled for 9 years after Independence to formulate a Constitution indicating that they were fuzzy as to what are their Nation’s aims and aspirations!!

The disorder called Pakistan further muddied the waters of confusion by the drama and the merry go round of marital law governments and civil govts. Not versed in governance or statesmanship but purely based on self survival, Zia encouraged the rise of fundamentalist Islam and its instruments of enforcement. Chaos became the synonymous to Pakistan. Thereafter, the various Shia Sunni sectarian killings, the various liberation movements, the supremacy of the ISI over the govt etc dug into the innards of Pakistan, and made Pakistan but a nation only in name. In short, there has been no stability in Pakistan ever and that the psyche is merely sub national and individual and organisational one-upmanship!

Therefore, if after 60 odd years after Independence, Pakistan is yet trying to find its identity and stability, it is a moot point that stability in Pakistan, which is their will o’ the wisp, will be in the interest of India or not since there has never been stability per se and it appears that none is on the horizon either!

However, one also wonders if such chaotic people who are keener on destroying each other are worth embracing by India.

Many attempts have been made by India to have a lasting peace with Pakistan and many promises have been made by them, but each time, such promises proved hollow. And yet we chase the Holy Grail of Peace with Pakistan and still continue to do so and landing ourselves in a pretzel shaped confusion as was experienced even as late as the Sharm al Sharif meet! The problem with India is that our statesmen want to outdo Nehru as men of peace and stature, without realising that compared to Nehru (with all his faults), most such statesmen are pygmies! And yet they pursue their pipedream to out Nehru Nehru!

Ideally, India should play by the ear and leave issues loose ended but charged with high moral rhetoric, just the way Pakistan is doing as is evident in the release of Hafiz Saaed and at the same time carrying out cosmetic arrests of no import.

Our statesmen should stop playing to the gallery with strong words and then eat crow. That causes a loss in credibility, both internally and in the international arena.

Given the turmoil in Pakistan and if the Taliban gets a foothold, there will be chaos and in this chaos, if the various liberation movements have their way then Pakistan will be history.

Then and then alone will there be stability in the area known as Pakistan! But then there will be no Pakistan!

Strong words I will concede, but unfortunately Pakistan continues to move from one chaos to another.
 

hit&run

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My Indian brothers and sisters killed by Pakistanis demand justice. The damage done by Pakistan has infected i am afraid many more new generations to come for Indians.
i would like to tell you about a boy whose parents were shot in eyes in front of him in Taj Hotel mumbai. pardon me i wont go in further details.
The justice is not yet done. Murderers those who have burnt my temples mosques and butchered innocent Indians are sheltered by Pakistani people in Pakistan.
Pakistan is an enemy and will remain enemy. The line were drawn when we were divided by UNITED kingdom.
Pakistan has to feel the pain of hatred from his neighbour otherwise they will never understand the meaning of friendship. People giving politically correct statements should talk about justice first.
Pakistan is state not a nation, with whom you will talk about friendship. Pakistan is a divided state. Articulated and functional by extensive intervention of force.
There will be a time when they will rush for friendship with India.That time o' clock will tic when they will be at the verge of their self caused extinction.
At that time I hope we be both working together to dismantle evil forces from this region.
A stable Pakistan nourished by foreign aid is always threat to India. Pakistan with hard earned honest money and betrayed by her own evil, will cross the bridge more then half way for friendship with India. it is only Pakistan's call to map friendship with India not India.

If i would have the capacity to make decision in this regard i will wait for Pakistan to cross the bridge more then half way with sincerity. Otherwise i am happy at my home. i can earn my ROTI at home, i am not dying of hunger cause pakistan is my enemy and i have no urgency to rush for shaking hands with pakistan. I am happy to to see its demise being invaded by many warlords(which has nothing to do with India).
 

Sabir

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if someone wants to cut us with 1000 wounds its better if he is kept busy with licking his own wounds.As simple as that.
 

Antimony

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I go with Yusuf on this.

Stable and properous Pakistan is all fin, but how are they engaged with us? Is it the typical over the top pseudo military engagement or is it one that decent neighbours do, with trade ties?

Two entities with trade ties, no matter how pi$$ed off they might be with each other will think a thousand times before actually distabilising the other./ Just look at China and the US.

Do note that Pakistan does not seem to be interested in pursuing trade ties in India, even though we had granted them MFN status. Many a times they have hit us when our guard was down and non-military engagements were starting, like the Lahore Bus initiative.

They also restrict our cultural products into their country, we welcome them with open arms
Could it be they are afraid of actually developing good relations with us, since that would rob the Pakistani establishment of an opportunity to grandstand about India?
 

johnee

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Antimony,
IMO, the Pakistani establishment are very insecure about Pakistan as a concept. They know that the concept of Pakistan has taken roots on hate of Hindus. And subsequently, after achieving Pakistan, the concept of Pakistan was nourished on the hatred of India(Upper caste Hindu India, to be precise). If and when Pakistan and India develop close ties(business, cultural, emotional......etc), then the concept of Pakistan(as a separate nation) will have no purpose. The fundamental question will be asked: Why do we need a separate nation called Pakistan?

Pakistani elite do everything in their power to stop their populace from asking this fundamental question by brainwashing their people(against India). To achieve this goal, the Pakistani elite represent India essentially as a upper caste Hindu nation that treats others(particularly muslims) with contempt. Kashmir is small pawn in this larger idea. Kashmir is represented as Hindu India trampling on Muslim brethen. Pakistanis have never come to accept that muslims(and other minorities) can get good deal in India. If they come to accept that, then they have a problem because they would have to then accept that their founding fathers were foolish in asking for a separate nation when they could have easily lived in India.

So, IMO, the ruling elite of Pakistan will never allow India and Pakistan to grow close. Look at the pattern: whenever India has extended a hand of peace, the peace process was given a setback because Pakistan stepped up the intensity of its terror mechanism. Kargil is a best example. This pattern will keep repeating until either Pakistani elite become less powerful or India becomes weak.

1)if Pakistani elite become less powerful, that would mean that Pakistan as a nation has weakened.
2)if India becomes weak, then the Pakistani elite hope to occupy India and rule it(just as they did, they believe, during Mughal era). They have a wet dream of 'green flag on red fort'.

So, now India has two options. Since, option 2 is not in India's interest, India has been trying for option 1. There are two ways to weaken Pakistani elite is:

a)create democracy(similar to India) that will in time weaken the Pakistani elite and release Pakistan from their grip. And in time the people of Pakistan will realise that India is no enemy.

b)forcefully weaken Pakistan, take it over directly or indirectly and weaken the Pakistani elite. Teach the people that India is no enemy.

India for last 60yrs has been trying the option (a). We have been trying to support, encourage and inspire the democracy in Pakistan, in the hope that it will succeed. Unfortunately, it didnt work. The Pakistan has been moving one step forward towards democracy and two steps backward.

So, IMO, its time to work on option (b).
 

johnee

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I have added a poll, guys. Go ahead and vote. Let us know which option you chose and why.
 

Jeypore

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A stable and (very important) economical prosperous Pakistan would be benefial for India. Let me explain:

First the stablity is based on paradigm shift of power structure in Pakistan. The military power has be tone down with there controlling of large assests (land and otherwise). The civilian gov't has to take precedence in order to rule the country. That is why one constantly see this double takes from the Pakistanie side, where military interseeds with Democracy at work. Zadari is right when he says "Pakistan has never gone to war, when it is ruled by democractic gov't."

Now once you have a stable gov't rule the next phase in economic development. Simply put if Pakistan was 1 world country, does anyone doubt that terrorist would've have a breeding ground. The answer is clearly NO!!! There lies the problem of the whole Talibs, they are recruted from poverty and brainwashed into a cause that makes no sense in modern times. So if Pakistan can become a economic power house like how India is doing, both the country would benefit and anamosities would be side tracked. More so with Pakistan then with China because our cultures do in a way intermesh.
 

IBM

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A stable and (very important) economical prosperous Pakistan would be benefial for India. Let me explain:

First the stablity is based on paradigm shift of power structure in Pakistan. The military power has be tone down with there controlling of large assests (land and otherwise). The civilian gov't has to take precedence in order to rule the country. That is why one constantly see this double takes from the Pakistanie side, where military interseeds with Democracy at work. Zadari is right when he says "Pakistan has never gone to war, when it is ruled by democractic gov't."

Now once you have a stable gov't rule the next phase in economic development. Simply put if Pakistan was 1 world country, does anyone doubt that terrorist would've have a breeding ground. The answer is clearly NO!!! There lies the problem of the whole Talibs, they are recruted from poverty and brainwashed into a cause that makes no sense in modern times. So if Pakistan can become a economic power house like how India is doing, both the country would benefit and anamosities would be side tracked. More so with Pakistan then with China because our cultures do in a way intermesh.


i dont agree on ur both para.
para 1=== pak will always in control of army, no matter wat happens in pakistan. Parliament is like pupit. Seee now, its a pupit.

para 2== If pak become 1st world country than also it will continue its anti india activity...

pak will never change its attitude towards India.so its better crush ur enemy before it crushes u....
 

Antimony

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1)if Pakistani elite become less powerful, that would mean that Pakistan as a nation has weakened.
2)if India becomes weak, then the Pakistani elite hope to occupy India and rule it(just as they did, they believe, during Mughal era). They have a wet dream of 'green flag on red fort'.

So, now India has two options. Since, option 2 is not in India's interest, India has been trying for option 1. There are two ways to weaken Pakistani elite is:

a)create democracy(similar to India) that will in time weaken the Pakistani elite and release Pakistan from their grip. And in time the people of Pakistan will realise that India is no enemy.

b)forcefully weaken Pakistan, take it over directly or indirectly and weaken the Pakistani elite. Teach the people that India is no enemy.

India for last 60yrs has been trying the option (a). We have been trying to support, encourage and inspire the democracy in Pakistan, in the hope that it will succeed. Unfortunately, it didnt work. The Pakistan has been moving one step forward towards democracy and two steps backward.

So, IMO, its time to work on option (b).
Johnee,

I do not believe India or anyone has actually actively tried to get Pakistan to option a. The only way that can be done would be through massive reforms, especially land reforms. Even today, the larger populace vote as per the needs of their former zamindars, who, incidentally get the political tickets. They have notn carried out land reforms or really done anything to do away with feudalism, not even someone deemed "pregressive" like Musharraf. Till the point that they actually proceed to being a real democracy, any stability and prosperity would be an illusion.

Would a Pakistan which was actually, really stable and democratic be good for India? Yes, I think so, but I do not know if we would have that or just a sham of democracy tht we have now.
 

thakur_ritesh

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To let democracy really prosper in Pakistan the only way forward is if it is allowed to prosper without any hindrance no matter how many lows this process might take. The first litmus test of this is to make sure that the present ppp government, no matter how inefficient they might be, they be allowed to complete their full tenure of 5years. This would be the first baby step in that direction.

The issue comes when the power hungry pa/isi have to sit cooling their heels away as a subordinate to a civilian set up where their isi directly comes under a civilian set up. These two institutions and probably the only two real institutions functional in Pakistan today have tasted blood of power and now it seems quite impossible that they will let go that status quo away that they have so successfully established over the years. These two organisations have a lot to loose if they have to sit out and report to a civilian setup, since then they would end up being kind of irrelevant from today being the single and the strongest power structure in Pakistan.

What has indeed surprised me the most about Pakistanis has been their habit of calling their own as gaddar, well if this is the kind of mistrust they see their own then they are certainly quite confused of whom to trust and not to trust, and with this kind of a psyche no one kind of a rule can last in Pakistan for long.

Will the ingrained psyche of India being the evil be removed for it seems the only one binding force for the Pakistanis an agenda that revolves around hate, a concept that sells like a hot cake there and anyone seen offering a hand of friendship to India is seen as a traitor.

All these seem a tall ask, the very basic fabric of Pakistan has to be changed, the psyche of their military to be the power centre has to change, they suspect everyone no wonder those conspiracy theories sell so well there, well this mistrust of everyone around them including their own needs to be removed, India the hindu evil with evil designs which is the real reason of power surrounding the pa has to be removed. All these reflect the very basic they are brought up on and changing those very basics is a process that takes years and years together, does Pakistan give itself that much time, do they have that kind of patience, will their military forego the pointless thought of parity with India in military hardware and technology terms.

As ray sir said, question should be, does Pakistan want to be stable and prosperous, and I feel he perfectly replied to that question. So then what are we dreaming about, a reformed Pakistan!
 

johnee

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Johnee,

I do not believe India or anyone has actually actively tried to get Pakistan to option a. The only way that can be done would be through massive reforms, especially land reforms. Even today, the larger populace vote as per the needs of their former zamindars, who, incidentally get the political tickets. They have notn carried out land reforms or really done anything to do away with feudalism, not even someone deemed "pregressive" like Musharraf. Till the point that they actually proceed to being a real democracy, any stability and prosperity would be an illusion.

Would a Pakistan which was actually, really stable and democratic be good for India? Yes, I think so, but I do not know if we would have that or just a sham of democracy tht we have now.
Antimony,
I agree with you when you say that India or anyone hasnt actually actively treid to get Pakistan to option a. The keyword here is 'active'. India has always been trying passively and hoping that Pakistanis dont mess again. But apart from that India cant do much. What else can a country in the position of India do apart from what it has actually done? India has tried to bolster the democratic setup by not blaming the state of Pakistan directly for terrorism. Instead, India has always maintained that 'few rogue elements' are 'using Pakistan' to spread terror. India could have easily blamed entire state of Pakistan(including the democratic setup), but India sought to strenghten the democratic setup(the recent example is after 26/11, zardari govt was not blamed by India directly). India has opened itself to cultural, business ties. These ties were not cut off even after 26/11(or Kabul embassy blast). But then this approach has not yielded result as desired. Infact, this has emboldened the Pakistani elite into thinking that India wouldnt go to option b. This restraint(in the hope to encourage budding democracy) has only made the Pakistani elite more brazen. The fact is that India cant do more than this, and what it has done so far is not working.

Of course, countries like US or China could have done much more to help democracy in Pakistan. But that wouldnt serve their agenda. US and China would want Pakistan to pursue the animosity with India that would ensure that Pakistan keeps India occupied with war(or proxy-war).

So, from India's point of view, we must explore option b. That would mean giving tit-for-tat to Pakistan(to make Pakistani elite realise that confrontation is not good). Pakistani elite have been doing just enough to keep the pot boiling. We need to take it all the way. Option a is about not reacting to any of their bait. Option b is about reacting to their bait with twice the aggression. Historically, Pakistan(Pakistani elites) have desisted from a certain action only when India thwarted their designs aggressively. Pakistani elites seem to understand only the language of force. For instance, Pakistan has initiated wars periodically with India until 71, when they suffered decisive blow. It also lead to seccession of Bangladesh from Pakistan. After that defeat Pakistan has not tried to initiate a full scale war. It has tried insurgency. The nadir of this strategy was Kargil. Which was thwarted successfully by India. Pakistan shifted its focus after that defeat to economic warfare. Which involves attacks(bomb blasts by their sleeper cells) on Indian cities(that are considered as driving force for new economic boom of India)and peddling fake currency. The nadir of this, IMO, is 26/11. If India had reacted aggressively to it, then Pakistan(Pakistani elites) would have don away with this strategy as well. India needs to speak the language of force. Pakistan(Pakistani elites) must fear the reaction of India for them to stop their misadventures.

So, India, IMO, must stop working to bolster their democracy(which is puppet of Military anyway) and start taking directly(which involves covert operations) on their elites(especially Punjab).
 

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