Is a stable Pakistan in our interest?

Discussion in 'Pakistan' started by johnee, Oct 27, 2009.

  1. johnee

    johnee Elite Member Elite Member

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    Could you please explain the highlighted part!
    Why is a volatile Pakistan not in India's interest? Does that mean a stable Pakistan is in India's interest? How so? Then again, what is stability? How do you define a stable Pakistan?

    Plz dont say that the terrorists/taliban/JeM/Let/......etc are more anti-indian then ISI/PA. ISI/PA have only one agenda of 'flying a green flag over red fort', while taliban has dreams of 'global war'. So, if the terrorists take over, then the rest of the world will come under the same kind of attack that India has been seeing for decades now. That should really wake up the world(I mean US). While ISI/PA would divert all their resources to fund terrorism of all kinds(religious, economic.....etc) in India. Taliban would have greater goals and hene India would be a small part of their plan. Thus, heat would be off India. And finally, if the taliban or someother terrorists take over Pakistan officially, then all the pretensions would end and world(US) would be forced to deal with the problem with some honesty. Right now, we have ISI/PA in power in Pakistan who are no better than taliban but they disguise themselves and hence get away with all the mayhem they have created in Afghanistan, Indian and also in Pakistan.
     
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  3. Flint

    Flint Senior Member Senior Member

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    ^Haha. Okies. If you say so.
     
  4. johnee

    johnee Elite Member Elite Member

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    X-posting from another forum....

     
  5. Flint

    Flint Senior Member Senior Member

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    The argument assumes that the destruction of the Pakistani state and consequently a Taliban takeover will lead to stability. Pray, do tell me, how does that work?
     
  6. johnee

    johnee Elite Member Elite Member

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    The argument only tries to prove that a 'stable Pakistan' in the past has not been in the Indian interests nor is it likely to be in the present or in near future. It points out that as far as India is concerned, PA/ISI is the biggest terroists. The truth be told, all the other terror groups have been created, nurtured, funded and armed by them to counter India. In this scenario, a taliban takeover does not mean a detoriation of situation from India' POV. The best case scenario of Taliban takeover for India, the world(US) will stop feigning that India and Pakistan are equal equal and deal with Pakistan as they should have done decades ago. The worst case scenario of Taliban takeover for India is that Taliban are as dedicated towards being anti-Indian as their masters(PA/ISI) are.
     
  7. nitesh

    nitesh Mob Control Manager Stars and Ambassadors

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    I would personally like Talibunny take over of pure land so the nuclear threat which is local as of now in hands of PA becomes global with Chinese also in there cross hairs let them eat there own fruits.

    I agree with johnee a stable Pakistan is not in India's interest
     
  8. Flint

    Flint Senior Member Senior Member

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    If that's your worst case scenario, I'd consider upping the thread level to bloody-hellish case scenario.
    Supposing that the Pakistani Army somehow crumbles, the Talibunnies take ove the government, where do you think they'll go next? Kashmir. If you think Kashmir is bad today, wait till the Taliban team up with Al Qaida to cause some real mayhem.
    Today, at least you have a state to deal with which is to some extent answerable to the UN and to other global powers. The Taliban has no such qualms. They'll be so emboldened by their victory in Pakistan that they'll pull out all the stops. The entire Af-Pak region will turn into a breeding ground for Jihadists (yes, far worse than today).
    With the Pakistani Army, atleast we know that we can defeat them if they try and attack. But these mujahideen aren't the kind who sign surrender documents and then keep quiet if you get the drift.

    I think the horrors of such a situation are too scary to contemplate. Lets be good and try to beat our neighbour into a functioning democracy. That's the only way out IMO.
     
  9. Flint

    Flint Senior Member Senior Member

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    You really want a multinational war in your backyard? A global center of attraction for mujahideen from Tajikistan to Norway? Please, do consider what you're wishing for here.
     
  10. nitesh

    nitesh Mob Control Manager Stars and Ambassadors

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    Flint first of all we need to understand what Pakistan wants? DO they really want only Kashmir? After that everything will magically stop or what? The state has used terror as state policy. There is no coming back until the institutions created/supporting them is completely destroyed or put under effective control/ terror for themselves (I mean the countries who have supported them). Why the hell we should only be the victim of other's doing let them feel the pain. Once the talibunny take over is imminent I am sure US will come hard on there nukes. This will solve the problem and once the particular state is de nuked tackeling them will be much easier
     
  11. Flint

    Flint Senior Member Senior Member

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    You're oversimplifying the issue here. First of all, they are not going to get Kashmir, so the issue of "magically stopping" does not arise.

    Secondly, the thing about state terror is that there is a state, which can be talked to, bent to your will, etc. etc. Of course you will say that Pakistan hasn't exactly humoured India's demands for the last 60 years, but the current scenario I feel is unprecedented. Pakistan itself is facing terrorism on a mega-scale, and I see an opportunity here that when the dust clears, we will have a new, shiny and more benign Pakistan. However, if there is no state to deal with on the other side, what you have is essentially Al-Qaida and the global Jehad, with nobody in between to control them.

    About the nukes, you're running a high risk here of the nukes actually falling into terrorist hands before the US or anyone else gets to them. Obviously, it would be great to see our old enemy de-nuked and de-Pakistanized once and for all, but a Talibanized Pakistan would give a boost to the Global Jehad that would match the one that they got after shooing the Ruskies out of Afghanistan.
    Now, considering the splendid job (sarcasm) that the US is doing today in Afghanistan, do you really think they'll be able to defeat them if they are spread over two countries and have access to revenues from rich Punjabi farmers? I think not.
     
  12. nitesh

    nitesh Mob Control Manager Stars and Ambassadors

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    The whole fundoos erupted from Kashmir issue any way let's keep Kashmir out of it

    On what basis you see a new shiny Pakistan? Aren't you clearly seeing the dog and pony show of Good talibunny vs bad talibunny. They are not going to hit any terrorists who supports them in there state policy read this

    Siege within: Pakistanis look to India for solutions

    Once the "so called" state is dismantled no body has to worry about any responsibility and the whole world has to deal with them not only us.

    I think you are not getting my point. The nukes in hands of PA are only directed towards India they are happy with the money they are getting and more them happy to run the terrorism against India in unbrella of nukes. But once talibunnies (or Al Queda or what ever be the name) get hands on them the nukes will be directed towards world and it will be come an International problem hence it will be dealt accordingly. The US is busy in keeping the nukes safe and behaving like USA (U stupid Americans :D) they have to realize the real problem is PA once it is dismantled tackling terrorism will become easy.
     
  13. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    A stable Pakistan has never been good for India. But whats the guarantee that an unstable Pakistan will be good for India. The Taliban has already stated its goal of first taking over Pakistan and then setting its sights on India.

    In the case of a state to state relations or the lack of it, we know in the case of a war, there are going to be two responsible sides and there will be some sort of decorum even in a war. But what about a war against non state actors like Taliban and AQ who have no qualms about anything? The Americans have already found that out the hard way. I would not like the Taliban at the doorsteps of India.

    But coming to the topic of this thread, Rahman Mallik has again reiterated that India is supporting Taliban to destabilize Pakistan. I know no one is going to take it seriously as everyone knows that India is no fan or Taliban. Was against it when it was in control of Astan. Even now the stated aim or the Taliban is to set sight on India after Pakistan. So why will India nurture someone who is going to harm it in the future. Rahman is out of his mind.
     
  14. Flint

    Flint Senior Member Senior Member

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    Ah, but you're missing the fact that the distinction between good and bad terrorists has vanished. Today, even some of the Kashmiri groups see Pakistan as inimical to their interests, and are teaming up with the Waziristan Talibunnies to infiltrate the Punjab. How do you think they managed to attack GHQ and other targets in the same week using military tactics rather than the usual crude suicide bombers that the TTP tends to use? These guys have been trained by the same people who run the Kashmir jihad.

    I'm of course relying on the fact that the Pakistanis will eventually realize this. If they don't realize this, they will continue to face terrorist strikes across the whole country, so IMO they will.

    That's not necessarily a good thing you know. Personally, I wouldn't want "the whole world" in my backyard. Who knows, it might even become an excuse for the PLA to set up shop in the ruins of the Pakistani state. Not a nice scenario.

    Pakistan doesn't have ICBMs. The only plausible target for Pakistani nukes is India, unless they come up with a way to ship them to the US and set them off, which is highly unlikely IMO.
     
  15. Flint

    Flint Senior Member Senior Member

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    I have a theory that Rehman is using the India bogeyman to convince his countrymen that the TTP are evil. I think he's having a hard time doing that thanks to the widespread support for them in the urdu press.
     
  16. thakur_ritesh

    thakur_ritesh Administrator Administrator

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    Completely agree with flint on the points he has raised. I am not going to divulge on the points already raised but rather look at how we can have a stable Pakistan.

    It will be india’s worst nightmare if Taliban were to take over Pakistan, with nukes or without nukes, with us/nato intervention or without their intervention. We have seen how much capable the us and their nato allies are in a’stan where after 8 years of war Taliban has significantly gained and now controls 70% of that country and a claim accepted by the us, least they be trusted in Pakistan, and what ever little success they have had some share of that success needs to be given to the pa, which will then be completely hostile to the us and the nato if invaded.

    Anyways such a scenario will never really happen, and I have always believed the pa would have a plan B if there is an imminent threat of Taliban take over which as matter of fact is stretching the speculation too far and the best possible plan at that point in time would be to do a coup through an Islamic revolution instigated at the behest of the pa, a more liberal Islamic revolution.

    Too much speculation in all of the above scenarios, they can best be put to rest.

    There is no reason for me not to believe that once the pa really makes peace with all sorts of Taliban, all the hell that has broken loose in Pakistan will come to rest. pa is well in control, and all that we get to see today is purely because pa is seen as waging a kafirs war on its own people at the behest of kafirs.

    One person who spells it out perfectly is imran khan, we might call him a mullah but the fact of the matter is he is one guy who does understand how to get peace in Pakistan, certainly not to our liking or to the liking of the us.
     
  17. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    The Pak government has to start using the propaganda machine that is very efficient in badgering India into letting its people know who the real evil is. I have read reports in this mornings papers as to how people are eager to leave Pakistan. Already people are leaving the war zone, but even the well healed are making a beeline at embassies of western countries to get outta there.

    One of their ex diplomat has said Pakistan is on the brink of becoming a stateless country and that a civil war is at its doorstep.

    Seriously, I feel the current situation cannot be termed a civil war where a handful of terrorists are waging war. I mean 15000-20000 terrorists fighting against half a million strong army cannot be called civil war. Ordinary Pakistanis have not joined the Taliban either and we dont know what is the extent of the support at large. Yes there is support in various pockets mainly confined to the western part of that country, but i doubt it extends to common folks in Punjab and Sindh.

    Its the Pakistani government which infact has to take sides now. So far it was with the Taliban playing its dirty strategic games. If it doesnt change its ways now, it will be the Taliban in Islamabad and no one will be left to play any dirty games in Islamadad.
     
  18. nitesh

    nitesh Mob Control Manager Stars and Ambassadors

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    How you came to the conclusion that Kashmiri guys are training them? This is hilarious these talibunnies were / are trained by CIA PA and ISI. And they are training / trained these talibunnies also. If they have seriously understood something then why there is NO action against Punjabi terrorist groups?

    This is just a dream nothing else.

    How come PLA comes in to this? Will India/ USA allow that? Personally i would like to have one of two nukes in hands of Chinese Muslims also.

    Does missiles have to be launched towards US mainland only? Why not hit deo gar cia or Japan or South Korea why not Israel? Hope you are getting the point
     
  19. Flint

    Flint Senior Member Senior Member

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    the TTP doesn't have the ability to conduct a commando operation (like for example the one in Mumbai that was done by LeT). They need the hallmark of Pakistani army training and that can only be got from the Kashmiri groups.

    Whatever "training" (I doubt it, but anyhow) the CIA/PA gave to the Taliban was way back in the cold war era. But mostly, they just gave them guns/rocket launchers and sent them off to battle.

    If you say so :lol:

    The USA might allow it, and frankly even if the USA doesn't want it, China can march in under the pretext of fighting the Uighur terrorists.

    If not, then maybe the Indian Army can move in. Even better.

    Yeah...we're going to sit and pray that they hit South Korea and not us? :)>
     
  20. nitesh

    nitesh Mob Control Manager Stars and Ambassadors

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    This is complete hogwash they all are the same, not only the illiterate but literate

    Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

    DAWN.COM | Pakistan | Tackling extremism

    Chakwal and madressahs

    Lashkar publications back in Pak, Jaish opens new madrasa in Masood town
     
  21. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    More of a case of the scientists being greedy than to have anything to do with the ideology i would say.
     

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