Involve Singapore and Israel in our AMCA 5th generation fighter program

[Tshering22]

Dear fellow countrymen, I was thinking that as our country is advancing towards military development and we are developing our own stealth fighter, we must involve in a couple of close allies to speed up the project. We all know what it is like whenever DRDO, HAL, ADA or any other government agency embarks on a project alone. Arjun and Tejas are living examples.

We should continue developing the entire AMCA ourselves with our knowledge but if it involves in foreign allies, it would mean:

1) A strong strategic base reiterating our foreign policy

2) Faster work as partners would be keen to induct the fighter incase our government becomes slow--they would act as accelerators

3) Singapore and Israel are both strategically beneficial for us--- Israel is one of the strongest technological contributor to our military while Singapore is one of the top 5 allies in the Indian Ocean Regions.

There are two reasons why I mentioned Singapore and Israel specifically:

1- both the countries have warm ties with us
2- they don't pose any strategic threat to us even in long term
3- they are safe enough to be given our source codes to modify their versions of MCA as they want

The benefits these two coutnries have would be:

*) Israel was recently rumored to be rejected for the F-15 Silent Eagle; Russia isn't that close with them while European weapons are too expensive for their small defense budget. So they can get reinforcements for their F-35s that they will receive from USA replacing their older F-15 'Neshers'.

If they join the AMCA program, it will strengthen our ties with them, we can share some of their advanced know-how in exchange for giving them access to source codes and also mend our recent diplomatic blunder that our government made by condemning Israeli action (As a neutral country, our government could have remained silent and refused to comment).


*) Singapore has aquired latest F-15s but needs to replace its F-16s in the near future. They are a financially well off country and also an advanced technological hub having strong military ties with us.

Asking them to join the project would mean additional technical know-how, better inter-operability and SAF earning themselves a good stealth fighter at reasonable cost effectiveness.

 

[Shaitan]

I sure hope so. Singapore and Israel would be SUCH a great help!! I wish Japan too..

 

[Yusuf]

Israel will go with the F-35. But it sure will be involved in the MCA as it gives us a good bit as it has one the MKI. Unless off course india can develop all that. Singapore is a friend of India not an ally. Two different terms. They will go with the US. They would not mind selling things to us if they can.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

MRCA will fulfill all the needs for next plus25 years, PAK-FA may be our last 5th gen fighter..
future may be in hands of UACV, their are very rare chance for sixth gen fighters..
So MCA future is very difficult..

 

[Agantrope]

I sure hope so. Singapore and Israel would be SUCH a great help!! I wish Japan too..

Japan forbids from selling their military technology to other countries

 

[LETHALFORCE]

These are all more or less US allies, USA would not go for this. It would possibly Impact US plane programs. Look at the gifting of F-16 's to Pakistan it has a lot to do with keeping Pakistan in USA's F-16 market and not losing them to the Chinese.

 

[sayareakd]

MRCA will fulfill all the needs for next plus25 years, PAK-FA may be our last 5th gen fighter..
future may be in hands of UACV, their are very rare chance for sixth gen fighters..
So MCA future is very difficult..

Kunal few things MRCA is not the 5th Generation fighter therefore it is highly unlikely that it will complete 25 years for our airforce given the fact that this branch is highly technology driven. I am talking about the super cruise ability and other features of 5G aircraft.

PAK-FA is the 5G we are developing with Russians, but given the past experience with Russia on complete TOT or the JV, it would be better to parallelly develop AMCA with what has been learn from LCA and what will be learn from PAKFA project and MRCA.

yeah Combat UAVs are future and unmanned LCA is planned by DRDO in future, still for R&D, IMHO it would be better to keep developing AMCA.

 

[Agantrope]

These are all more or less US allies, USA would not go for this. It would possibly Impact US plane programs. Look at the gifting of F-16 's to Pakistan it has a lot to do with keeping Pakistan in USA's F-16 market and not losing them to the Chinese.

More or less what we do, Israel will do the electronic level system in the AC's Mirages was supposed to be upgraded by the Israel, to stop french from selling the avionics to the Thunder Blunder we opted the french.

 

[Agantrope]

Kunal few things MRCA is not the 5th Generation fighter therefore it is highly unlikely that it will complete 25 years for our airforce given the fact that this branch is highly technology driven. I am talking about the super cruise ability and other features of 5G aircraft.

PAK-FA is the 5G we are developing with Russians, but given the past experience with Russia on complete TOT or the JV, it would be better to parallelly develop AMCA with what has been learn from LCA and what will be learn from PAKFA project and MRCA.

yeah Combat UAVs are future and unmanned LCA is planned by DRDO in future, still for R&D, IMHO it would be better to keep developing AMCA.

Superbly said. Also for the case study of the UCAV, unmanned tejas can be employed with the Kaveri engine, underpower wont be a problem here, Still can be used for closed air support

 

[sandeepdg]

Israel is an ally, but it cannot be trusted with not selling MCA secrets to other countries ! And Singapore is more of a friend, not exactly an ally ! And both of them are more close to US than they are to us. Though such an partnership, had it been possible, would have been great, considering the technological expertise we will gain, but there is a very little chance of that materializing, considering the US would not want that its F-35 customers and potential future customers ditch it for the MCA, since maybe Singapore may also become a potential F-35 customer in the near future if they consider moving on to 5TH genr. fighters for their airforce, which I think is inevitable in the future.

 

[Logan]

What about the procurement of Eurofighter Typhoon ,,it's not a 5G but that must be one of the valuable assets of IAF in future..

 

[Agantrope]

Israel is an ally, but it cannot be trusted with not selling MCA secrets to other countries ! And Singapore is more of a friend, not exactly an ally ! And both of them are more close to US than they are to us. Though such an partnership, had it been possible, would have been great, considering the technological expertise we will gain, but there is a very little chance of that materializing, considering the US would not want that its F-35 customers and potential future customers ditch it for the MCA, since maybe Singapore may also become a potential F-35 customer in the near future if they consider moving on to 5TH genr. fighters for their airforce, which I think is inevitable in the future.

Singapore is SCP for the F-35 like Israel

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

i think drdo should not involve israel and singapore in amca projects as partners.we have to develop all the key 5G components of amca such as stealthy airframe ,tvc for kaveri (improved version of kaveri smeca engine),supercruise, electronic warfare suites,and aesa radar.of course we can take the help of european and israeli companies in the last two components in separate jv to reduce time but it would be ideal if we go for indegineous developement since iaf is in no hurry and hopes to induct amca by 2025 by the timeline the production line of mmrca would be closed by HAL.

 

[Agantrope]

i think drdo should not involve israel and singapore in amca projects as partners.we have to develop all the key 5G components of amca such as stealthy airframe ,tvc for kaveri (improved version of kaveri smeca engine),supercruise, electronic warfare suites,and aesa radar.of course we can take the help of european and israeli companies in the last two components in separate jv to reduce time but it would be ideal if we go for indegineous developement since iaf is in no hurry and hopes to induct amca by 2025 by the timeline the production line of mmrca would be closed by HAL.

IMO partnering the EF program will make us in much better position to start AMCA, EF is near the stealth technology except the external weapon bay and all stuffs, AESA is on track and if the single crystal technology is with us then we will be in a good position to go ahead in the AMCA

 

[neo29]

Israel is someone we cant trust easily. They sold us Green pine atleast when US object arrow 2 sale. They even gave technology for their spy satellite which we used in ours. They havent sold us bad weaponry or dud bombs like Russia did. They included us in Barak SAM project. There is no harm in having JV for AMCA. We may end up building it faster than expected. Israeli avionics in a 5th gen fighter will work wonders.

The establishment may be having a thought that when they build a 5th gen fighter it must be strictly indigenously built. Making it indigenously is matter of pride.

But for sure making it alone surely will result in delays, we do make good products but delay it a lot. If we want AMCA soon we need JV with Israel.

 

[Tshering22]

Israel is an ally, but it cannot be trusted with not selling MCA secrets to other countries ! And Singapore is more of a friend, not exactly an ally ! And both of them are more close to US than they are to us. Though such an partnership, had it been possible, would have been great, considering the technological expertise we will gain, but there is a very little chance of that materializing, considering the US would not want that its F-35 customers and potential future customers ditch it for the MCA, since maybe Singapore may also become a potential F-35 customer in the near future if they consider moving on to 5TH genr. fighters for their airforce, which I think is inevitable in the future.

That's a weird thing you said man. Israel helped us always and how can you say it cannot be trusted? Trust always has to start from somewhere. If we keep this Soviet-era Socialist mentality nothing will change and we will never benefit. When signing deals like the one I mentioned with Israel, there are a lot of pacts that bind the other country from selling stuff to other countries. That is the same set of agreements that we have with Russians on PAKFA and BrahMos. It isn't so easy to sell secrets to others.

Why would Israel sell our secrets to who? China is already making its own 5th generation fighter and has what it needs. Russia is also making and so are we. Japanese are already going to get help from US on ShinShin and that leaves only Pakistan. Israel and Pakistan are loggerheads with each other and its an open secret.

Both are US allies I agree. But both are strong India supporters as well. Singapore has extensive security agreements with us and a significant part of their weapons are stationed in India. That's not a joke on international level. Israel has supplied us reliable weapons at reasonable prices when we needed them most starting Kargil war's excellent on time delibery of shells. Israel was also the only Country in middle east and the only country apart from Russia and France who welcomed our nuclear tests with an open heart. The Arabs cheated us there again and sided with Pakistan.

Israel has recently reduced the number of F-35 it is going to by from US from 75 to 25. Singapore will need to replace its other fighters apart from F-16s (it already has new F-15SGs). Israel is also in a security environment that needs them to have things according to their customized requirements.. US is not allowing that on F-35 and hence the decrease in units. With our AMCA project, they have a 50% say in both technology contribution as well as how they want to modify it. Even we can gain from their expertise and mixing it with our own knowledge, AMCA would pack quite a punch.

F-35 is a supposed replacement for old F-16s and 25 won't be enough. They have aroun 110 F-16 fighters. Even if they order another 60 F-35s in next 10 years, what about their F-15 'Neshers'? They need a medium twin-engined 5th generation fighter that has a longer range than JSF. AMCA fits the bill.

 

[Param]

Israel is someone we cant trust easily. They sold us Green pine atleast when US object arrow 2 sale. They even gave technology for their spy satellite which we used in ours. They havent sold us bad weaponry or dud bombs like Russia did. They included us in Barak SAM project. There is no harm in having JV for AMCA. We may end up building it faster than expected. Israeli avionics in a 5th gen fighter will work wonders.

The establishment may be having a thought that when they build a 5th gen fighter it must be strictly indigenously built. Making it indigenously is matter of pride.

But for sure making it alone surely will result in delays, we do make good products but delay it a lot. If we want AMCA soon we need JV with Israel.

Our good friend Israel was about to sell Phalcons to China before America blocked the deal. If not for America's objection Israel would have been selling them the kind of equipment they sell us.

 

[Agantrope]

Our good friend Israel was about to sell Phalcons to China before the America blocked the deal. If not for America's objection Israel would have been selling them the kind of equipment they sell us.

LOL!!!

China and Unkil were friends during the cold war regime. IAI even gave their Lavi documents to the China which US havent object since it is half funded by them. Surgence of China made the Unkil to wake from the sleep

 

[Logan]

Our good friend Israel was about to sell Phalcons to China before America blocked the deal. If not for America's objection Israel would have been selling them the kind of equipment they sell us.

This is always on the cards no matter how good a Israel is a friend of ours.An arms an armament technology developing country will always be on the look out for selling their goods to International customers.We just need to make sure that we don't back off from asking for the same technology for our benefit.

 

[Tshering22]

Our good friend Israel was about to sell Phalcons to China before America blocked the deal. If not for America's objection Israel would have been selling them the kind of equipment they sell us.

What rights to you blame Israel to be supportive of China against India? You tell me, how many Israel Arab wars have we supported and fought on side of Israel in response to Pakistanis fighting on the side of Arabs? How many of their terrorists attacks has our socialist government condemned for the fear of certain groups within the country for not doing this friendly gesture? And on top of all this, how can you say that Israel has no right to even sell weapons for business to China?

When we Indians maintain a policy of offical neutrality between Israelis and Arabs, don't they have right to maintain a similar kind of neutrality when it comes to us and Chinese? After all Israel is all for us when it comes to Pakistan. This is some logic you got. Chit bhi meri, patt bhi meri. :15::15: