INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[Dinesh_Kumar]

Dear Kunal,

I am an avid reader of your posts, and was one of the main reasons of joining DFI.

Please let me know the following:

i) Can INSAS rifle MK-II version be made by OFB with certain improvements like better iron sights, pictanny rails, better handles and grips, improvements for recoil, over heating, that oil spray problem, also improvement in the looks, with use of Industrial Design principles, ergonomics, etc. Maybe bench marking with HK 36, M4, LA-80 , etc. This will be a private development not supported by army.

ii) Offer the same to Army, paramilitaries, BSF, etc. If IA still refuses, atleast paramilitary troops will upgrade to it. Potential exists, I think, for about 200000 pieces.

iii) 7.62 mm Version of INSAS in 3 versions -
a) Semi/Full Auto for infantry engaged in Counter Insurgency
b) LMG for Squad level actions
c) Designated Marksman , Semi automatic, long range scopes, 800 m effective, supplements SVD Sniper.

Is it possible? Will it work?

Aim is to keep weapon production in India, design the next generation ourselves, and do away with imports in such large numbers that all are talking about.

Small imports for Special Forces is acceptable.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

INSAS is a family of small arms, though specific is INSAS 1B1.

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I can say i can make it with given tools and accessories ( Info posted in last page ), I never talked about OFB..

INSAS 1b1 iron sights are good there is no need for improvement there, What i do recommend about INSAS upgrade is it should be given to Private, i am sure they will come up with same view as mine in last page..

i) Can INSAS rifle MK-II version be made by OFB with certain improvements like better iron sights, pictanny rails, better handles and grips, improvements for recoil, over heating, that oil spray problem, also improvement in the looks, with use of Industrial Design principles, ergonomics, etc. Maybe bench marking with HK 36, M4, LA-80 , etc. This will be a private development not supported by army.

============================

That depends, If someone take initiative to offer upgrade INSAS 1b1, I am sure there will be orders..

On the side note, IA SF use INSAS 1b1 side by side TAR-21 and VZ-58/AKM..

ii) Offer the same to Army, paramilitaries, BSF, etc. If IA still refuses, atleast paramilitary troops will upgrade to it. Potential exists, I think, for about 200000 pieces.

========================

IA use AK coz it serves better in Spray and Pray tactics, the logic of 7.62m43 soviet has better kill than 5.56mm is obsolete as new generation of 5.56mm preform better than 7.62m43 in Short and Long range, Indian Army use 64gr 5.56mm ammo and western armies are now looking at 77gr 5.56mm ammo..

To implement these rounds there is no change in basic rifle, Just load and shoot..
Same round can be used in AR, DMR and LMG..

And yes it will just work fine, If implemented..

iii) 7.62 mm Version of INSAS in 3 versions -
a) Semi/Full Auto for infantry engaged in Counter Insurgency
b) LMG for Squad level actions
c) Designated Marksman , Semi automatic, long range scopes, 800 m effective, supplements SVD Sniper.

Is it possible? Will it work?

 

[pmaitra]

Some Photos from the range >>

Are these mags the larger 30 round mags?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Just Regular 22rnd Magazine ..

Are these mags the larger 30 round mags?

 

[DivineHeretic]

INSAS is a family of small arms, though specific is INSAS 1B1.

=====================

I can say i can make it with given tools and accessories ( Info posted in last page ), I never talked about OFB..

INSAS 1b1 iron sights are good there is no need for improvement there, What i do recommend about INSAS upgrade is it should be given to Private, i am sure they will come up with same view as mine in last page..



============================

That depends, If someone take initiative to offer upgrade INSAS 1b1, I am sure there will be orders..

On the side note, IA SF use INSAS 1b1 side by side TAR-21 and VZ-58/AKM..



========================

IA use AK coz it serves better in Spray and Pray tactics, the logic of 7.62m43 soviet has better kill than 5.56mm is obsolete as new generation of 5.56mm preform better than 7.62m43 in Short and Long range, Indian Army use 64gr 5.56mm ammo and western armies are now looking at 77gr 5.56mm ammo..

To implement these rounds there is no change in basic rifle, Just load and shoot..
Same round can be used in AR, DMR and LMG..

And yes it will just work fine, If implemented..

For the INSAS, the state armed constabulary is probably the biggest prospective buyer, even bigger than the IA, if they get the price right. There is a massive upgrade requirement from the standard. 303 and the Sten guns, especially in the more backward states.

For one, in Assam, the armed constabulary upgraded to INSAS sometime after October 30,2008 blasts. Now, the regular beat police too is being upgraded. The. 303 has been finally put to sleep.

As far as Spray and pray tactics are concerned, I know for certain the jawans have a very strict weapon discipline drilled into them. And even after joining the fighting forces, the senior, more experienced jawans, naiks, make sure the newer troops never spray during a firefight.

The only time a regular infantry goes into full auto, with the AK is when he's covering an advance or retreat or a fallen comrade. At other times, only single shots are used in CI. Its different for Ghataks though.

The reason AK-56 (or any other 7.62x39 or 7.62x51 chambered gun) is used by any force over 5.56 munition is the stopping power of the round. By stopping, I mean absolutely stopping the enemy in his motion.

The momentum transferred on impact by the 7.62 round is much higher than that by the 5.56. This translates to force of impact as for very short time of impact, force = change in momentum

Most people confuse this stopping power with killing power. The 5.56 will kill you, make no mistake, but the 7.62 round will stop you, topple you, no matter where it hits, even if thats your body armor.

This is what the army wants when it engages a terrorist, who might be drugged or worse, and who might be immune to the damage from a bullet for a few minutes because senses are numbed. The army jawans want the terrorist thrown right off by the impact.

When facing a armored opponent, no soldier now-a-days wants to be using the 7.62, simply because its penetrating power is far less, courtesy the lower speed of this round vis-a-vis the 5.56. Stopping power here becomes useless because the opponent is not penetrated.

The IA body armor, mocked by many as being too bulky or being not cool, will stop the 7.62 from 10m, and the 5.56x45 NATO at under 25m. This is why the Pak army still uses the 7.62x51, to offset the advantage. The only way a terrorist manages to kill our jawans now is by a lucky shot at the neck.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Spray and Pray is a tactics used very often in close quarters, AK in CT is a replacement for Carbine not Rifle..

Spray does not meant wastage of ammo when to pic out enemy position or giving suppressive fire in close quarters..

High velocity 5.56mm of 64 / 77gr have similar effect of 7.62m43 in close and long ranges, same cannot be said about 55gr 5.56mm which are no longer in use..

As far as Spray and pray tactics are concerned, I know for certain the jawans have a very strict weapon discipline drilled into them. And even after joining the fighting forces, the senior, more experienced jawans, naiks, make sure the newer troops never spray during a firefight.

The only time a regular infantry goes into full auto, with the AK is when he's covering an advance or retreat or a fallen comrade. At other times, only single shots are used in CI. Its different for Ghataks though.

 

[sayareakd]

Spray and Pray is a tactics used very often in close quarters, AK in CT is a replacement for Carbine not Rifle..

Spray does not meant wastage of ammo when to pic out enemy position or giving suppressive fire in close quarters..

High velocity 5.56mm of 64 / 77gr have similar effect of 7.62m43 in close and long ranges, same cannot be said about 55gr 5.56mm which are no longer in use..

in Mumbai attack this commando was doing suppressive fire

if you see angle is such that he cant see the target from his iron sight, still he has good idea for the angle of attack, i saw the video of his firing that time.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

There were many views came out of this vid, But in reality he was firing to divert terrorist on other side of the building..

in Mumbai attack this commando was doing suppressive fire

if you see angle is such that he cant see the target from his iron sight, still he has good idea for the angle of attack, i saw the video of his firing that time.

 

[ALBY]

Re: ACOG Alternatives ( Legal )

Such practices are forbidden but done for sake of operational requirement..

There are hundreds of AKM captured every year by IA in COIN ops and 99% of them are folded butt, such as this example :



With correct guidance, A unit can replace all the solid butt-stocks with captured AK`s folded butt-stocks with help of a screwdriver, and can deposit the solid butt-stocks back at armory, same can be done for solid stock AK in service, Unfortunately there are no such guidance for such simple modifications which lead to such odd and dangerous steps..

Now days its gud that individual officers are doing and teaching others such modifications and upgrading there own Rifles from there own pockets if not government..

I dont get why the butt stock is sawn off.I dont think he had improvised the fixed stock inot a foldable.Any way god help the guy from recoil.
Whats the point of maufacturing most of the insas in fixed stocks where as foldables are easy to carry especially in armoured vehicles,CQB and also while airborne?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: ACOG Alternatives ( Legal )

' Infantry ' where marksman ship is very important, with folded butt like what used in India and made by OFB is not suitable..

Whats the point of maufacturing most of the insas in fixed stocks where as foldables are easy to carry especially in armoured vehicles,CQB and also while airborne?

 

[Somreet Bhattacharya]

Kunal Sir,
Wat is it with the complains 'oil-spill' thing or spraying of rifle oils on the face of the firer in the early INSAS, back in 2009 some paramilitary guys I met somewhere were complaining about it...

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I have talked about this as well in past..

Oils spilled was because of old ways of oiling Rifle, During old days one use too much oil in rifle cause it to spill..

Now as new training specially about INSAS, Is one does not pour bottle of Oil in the Rifle but little amount which is needed..

Adding few more notes, The procedure was never changed from SLR, Extra oil in chamber and barrel get hot when fired causing it to spill, the procedure changed and problem is solved, It was not an issue with the Rifle but the procedure they follow, In many units in IA and even paramilitary they still use the same procedure, in such case even ARX-160 will also spill oil over face and body..

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/43826-insas-rifle-lmg-carbine-20.html

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Kunal Sir,
Wat is it with the complains 'oil-spill' thing or spraying of rifle oils on the face of the firer in the early INSAS, back in 2009 some paramilitary guys I met somewhere were complaining about it...

 

[Somreet Bhattacharya]

Sorry, I had missed your earlier post Kunal Sir, ...okkay that is where the issue is.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

No problems, would like to answer more good queries from you..

Sorry, I had missed your earlier post Kunal Sir, ...okkay that is where the issue is.

 

[bhramos]

 

[Prabhnoor Singh Babra]

Bro, come to the world outside Black Ops...the NDTV documentary you are talking about showed the UZI...learn the difference first...

Bro, I am pretty sure it was MSMC

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

which one ?

 

[bhramos]

which one ?

Kalantak Micro Assault Rifle 5.56mm

 

[pmaitra]

which one ?

Kalantak Micro Assault Rifle 5.56mm

This is not Kalantak. This is Ex-Calibur.

 

[bhramos]

This is not Kalantak. This is Ex-Calibur.

may be you are correct, but i dont see any big difference between both.....

INSAS Rifle, LMG and Carbine