INSAS Rifle, LMG & Carbine

[pmaitra]

Reread my posts. I said more or less the same thing. The P-Rails, Amogh carbine grip, etc. didnt exist in any of the older designs, but the more current Ghatak.

You are trying to weasel your way out.

Which the above is.

No.

 

[Shaitan]

You are trying to weasel your way out.

No.

Yup, I'll go with OFB guys. The guys that actually worked on the product.

 

[pmaitra]

Yup, I'll go with OFB guys. The guys that actually worked on the product.

You don't know a single person personally who has actually worked on any OFB product.

The guy who prepared that literature did not work on the product. I can tell you that right now.

 

[abingdonboy]

Ok, one final time. They are calling this rifle below the Ghatak. Therein lies the error.

Ghatak has a gas regulator. Please read the previous posts again. To quote Kunal, "The final avatar of original AK7 is Ghatak now."

You don't know a single person personally who has actually worked on any OFB product.

The guy who prepared that literature did not work on the product. I can tell you that right now.

Is this latest varient in production as we speak?

And if not the "Ghatak" what should we call this rifle?

 

[Shaitan]

You don't know a single person personally who has actually worked on any OFB product.

The guy who prepared that literature did not work on the product. I can tell you that right now.

Dont need to. You're not going to find any of the limited stock AK7s with P-rails, or Amogh carbine's grib. Both are new additions to the new, "AK7"/Ghaatak. Which the image is. The P-rails in general are rather recent induction to many Indian small arms. The original Amogh had older rail design as in the INSAS. And it's grip is not of the same quality. The image of the Ghaatak is a recent one, not vintage.

 

[pmaitra]

Dont need to. You're not going to find any of the limited stock AK7s with P-rails, or Amogh carbine's grib. Both are new additions to the new, "AK7"/Ghaatak. Which the image is. The P-rails in general are rather recent induction to many Indian small arms. The original Amogh had older rail design as in the INSAS. And it's grip is not of the same quality. The image of the Ghaatak is a recent one, not vintage.

You believe what you want.

There are two pictures. One a direct clone of AKM, and another with the gas regulator.

You are looking at some posters at an OFB stand, correct? I have seen posters at OFB stands too. I have had the rifle in my hands, along with INSAS and Garl-Gustav. If OFB literature is correct now, then it must have been wrong 10/15 years ago. If it was correct then, then it is wrong now.

Is this latest varient in production as we speak?

And if not the "Ghatak" what should we call this rifle?

OFB was cloning the AKM and got sued by Kalashnikov. Thereafter, they added some modifications significant enough to be classified as a new product (one modification being the gas regulator), and are now calling it the Ghatak.

In the previous page there are two pictures. One with the gas regulator, and one without. Only one of the two is Ghatak, and that is the one with the gas regulator.

This is Ghatak:
This is not Ghatak:

This is not Ghatak.

Edited to correct error: Neither are Ghatak. Thanks to @Shaitan.

 

[Shaitan]

This is Ghatak:

This is not Ghatak.

That is not Ghatak. The designate never existed when Kunal was holding that. The designate is new. It's basically the older model with some P-rails, sometimes with the newer Amogh pistol grip.

 

[pmaitra]

That is not Ghatak. The designate never existed when Kunal was holding that. The designate is new. It's basically the older model with some P-rails, sometimes with the newer Amogh pistol grip.

You are right. What looks like a gas regulator is probably something else. That is the AK7.

P-rails and all are just accessories. You can add P-rails to any Kalashnikov.

 

[Shaitan]

You are right. What looks like a gas regulator is probably something else. That is the AK7.

P-rails and all are just accessories. You can add P-rails to any Kalashnikov.

Of course, but it is standard on the Ghatak models being mass produced. Again, we're talking about a name, designate. It never existed then. When it was first revealed, it has always been shown with P-rails on the base model. The rails is a give away.

 

[pmaitra]

Of course, but it is standard on the Ghatak models being mass produced. Again, we're talking about a name, designate. It never existed then. When it was first revealed, it has has alway been shown with P-rails on the base model. The rails is a give away.

The model I saw did not have P-rails but had black furniture and waffle magazine. I would like to see a picture with the gas regulator. The one they are promoting as Ghatak is most likely to avoid being repeat sued. I wonder what major modifications they would have made internally to be significantly different from an AKM?

 

[Shaitan]

The model I saw did not have P-rails but had black furniture and waffle magazine. I would like to see a picture with the gas regulator. The one they are promoting as Ghatak is most likely to avoid being repeat sued. I wonder what major modifications they would have made internally to be significantly different from an AKM?

First of all, you stated the one Kunal is holding is Ghatak, and the other not. The designate of, "Ghatak", never existed then. It's like calling LCA, "Tejas", before it even got it's name.

When it did, very recently, it's basically a AK with rails on the top and bottom. That's it's signature.

\

The picture you said isnt Ghatak is. It's a new name, just like the P-rails and Amogh pistol grip is new as well.

 

[pmaitra]

First of all, you stated the one Kunal is holding is Ghatak, and the other not. The designate of, "Ghatak", never existed then. It's like calling LCA, "Tejas", before it even got it's name.

You saw the picture Kunal is holding but did you read his post?

He mentioned gas regulator. The picture shows a rifle which looks like it has a gas regulator, but on close inspection it is not a gas regulator. I thought it was Ghatak because I thought it has a gas regulator.

Back to the point I am making, the AKM clone is being produced by OFB for more than a decade. The name Ghatak is very new. If the new rifle is significantly different from the old AKM clone, then the old AKM clone is not Ghatak, no matter what some literature says.

Also, all these literature is produced by people who are government employees. Not everyone is technically informed. Don't take every poster and flier on its face value. Ask questions. I would have asked what is different in this rifle from the older AKM clone, if I were present.

 

[Shaitan]

@pmaitra

Back to the point I am making, the AKM clone is being produced by OFB for more than a decade. The name Ghatak is very new. If the new rifle is significantly different from the old AKM clone, then the old AKM clone is not Ghatak, no matter what some literature says.

What on earth are you talking about about? Yes, Ghatak, the designate is new. I've already mentioned this.

In your own post you labeled the older AK7 as Ghatak when no name existed then. And the newer locally made AK as not a Ghatak.

Bottom line is this. The newer models being produced now are Ghataks. The image with the P-rail, the modern Amogh pistol grib is a Ghatak, because both of those didnt exist away back then.

 

[pmaitra]

What on earth are you talking about about? Yes, Ghatak, the designate is new. I've already mentioned this.

Yes, to what? What are you saying yes to?

Read what I wrote in my previous posts.

In your own post you labeled the older AK7 as Ghatak when no name existed then. And the newer locally made AK as not Ghatak.

Repeat that another fifteen hundred times.

I have already responded. I said that because it looked like it had a gas regulator, and this was a follow on from what I read in Kunal's post. Read his post again before responding.

Bottom line is this. The newer models being produced now are Ghataks. The image with the P-rail, the modern Amogh pistol grib is a Ghatak, because both of those didnt exist away back then.

If P-rail and pistol-grip is the only change, then Ghatak is not different from the older AKM clone. That is not the case, as Kunal mentioned, they made modifications to the rifle.

You can walk into any gun-store in the US and have wooden furniture removed and P-rails and pistol grips installed. You are only looking at superficial things.

Give me some technical details as to what changed between the older AKM clone and the so called "new" Ghatak, and if there is no change, then it is the same old rifle.

 

[Shaitan]

If P-rail and pistol-grip is the only change, then Ghatak is not different from the older AKM clone. That is not the case, as Kunal mentioned, they made modifications to the rifle.

You can walk into any gun-store in the US and have wooden furniture removed and P-rails and pistol grips installed. You are only looking at superficial things.

Give me some technical details as to what changed between the older AKM clone and the so called "new" Ghatak, and if there is no change, then it is the same old rifle.

I've already stated it's a new avatar of the older AK that was only produced in limited numbers.

Again, we're talking about a new designate given by OFB. In this, OFB will be producing this with rails. Sure it's superficial. But you can tell Type 56s in Sri Lanka and Pakistan by the base model stocks that come with it. Other that it's also just an AK. Iron sights, stocks, grips, etc. can be superficial, so what? If that's how the manufacturer is going to pump them out in large volume, it's just as relevant to differentiate it from other models.


Bottom line is this, the manufactures, OFB, call this AKs Ghatak. What you pointed out early, about this pic not being Ghatak is false. It is.

 

[pmaitra]

I've already state it's a new avatar of the older AK that was only produced in limited numbers.

Again, we're talking about a new designate given by OFB. In this, OFB will be producing this with rail. Sure it's superficial. But you can tell Type 56s in Sri Lanka and Pakistan by the base model stocks that come with it. Other that it's also just an AK. Iron sights, stocks, grips, etc. can be superficial, so what? If that's how the manufacture is going to pump them out in large volume, it's just as relevent.

So, you don't have any technical details as to what changed? Ok, I will look around and post details if I can find out.

For me, a new rifle means modifications in the mechanical parts, such as bolt, rifling, gas regulator, piston or direct impingement. Superficial modifications will leave OFB exposed to repeat lawsuit from Kalashnikov.

 

[Shaitan]

So, you don't have any technical details as to what changed? Ok, I will look around and post details if I can find out.

For me, a new rifle means modifications in the mechanical parts, such as bolt, rifling, gas regulator, piston or direct impingement. Superficial modifications will leave OFB exposed to repeat lawsuit from Kalashnikov.

Where did this start?

You pointed out this rifle here isnt a Ghatak --

Then you labeled an older AK7 as Ghatak when no designate existed. Sure, they're basically the same. But how the above isnt, and other is makes no sense.

Bottom line - Above image is a Ghaatak. It's a newer model, hence it get's the newer designate, "Ghaatak".

 

[pmaitra]

Where did this start?

You pointed out this rifle here isnt a Ghatak --

Then you labeled an older AK7 as Ghatak when no designate existed. Sure, they're basically the same. But how the above isnt, and other is makes no sense.

Bottom line - Above image is a Ghaatak. It's a newer model, hence it get's the newer designate, "Ghaatak".

It is the same rifle I had in my hands at an OFB stand more than a decade ago.

I don't care about the P-rails and pistol grip. I am saying this again because stating something once does not seem to work.

Then you labeled an older AK7 as Ghatak when no designate existed.

One down. 14,999 more repetitions to go.

 

[Shaitan]

It is the same rifle I had in my hands at an OFB stand more than a decade ago.

I don't care about the P-rails and pistol grip. I am saying this again because stating something once does not seem to work.

Great, it's the same rifle, never disagreed. But guess what? OFB has given a new designate with some minor change to the base model. These changes include the rails.

This isnt a hard thing to conceptualize here. Yes, that is a GHAATAK rifle. That's it's new name for the series.

 

[pmaitra]

Great, it's the same rifle, never disagreed. But guess what? OFB has given a new designate with some minor change to the base model. These changes include the rails.

This isnt a hard thing to conceptualize here. Yes, that is a GHAATAK rifle. That's it's new name for the series.

So we have theories:
Theory 1: The rifle is the same but the name "Ghatak" is new.
Theory 2: They made modifications to the rifle, and the new modified rifle is called "Ghatak."

Ok, here are some of my thoughts:

• P-Rail and pistol grip are not modifications in my opinion. These are merely accessorizations. If someone disagrees, so be it.
• The modifications that count so as to be able to evade a lawsuit are things such as: gas regulator, muzzle brake, etc..