INS Vishal (IAC- II) Aircraft Carrier

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by john70, Aug 21, 2012.

  1. TPFscopes

    TPFscopes Rest in Peace Senior Member

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    Do you know, the reactor for Arihant class was developed by BARC and there is only unconfirmed reports about the uprating reactor to unconfirmed level.
    Right now, Indian Navy denied to find the new development of reactor for IAC-2. So, why should BARC go ahead when the sole user of the reactor denied for the funds?

    You should know that the area you are quoting again and again is calculated as the total surface area of multi storey Carrier.

    Rest I can assure that with the present scenario, you will not have complete IAC-2 before 15 years from design phase.
     
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  2. Kshithij

    Kshithij Regular Member

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    The present scenario is a bit secretive. So, it is best to not speculate on what will happen. I am only saying that there is enough expertise and technology to make a carrier within 2025 if all out efforts are made without any restrictions on rupee based funds (not forex). What the situation is politically, budget etc can delay it. I am not interested in them but purely on ABSOLUTE capacity assuming war footing pace of construction
     
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  3. TPFscopes

    TPFscopes Rest in Peace Senior Member

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    Best of luck for you...:playball:

    By the way, I'm only calculate the timeline from the available data. As of now, IAC-2 is not the IN priority, so I can expect war footing pace.

    For expecting such pace of development, we need multiple times Defence budget.
     
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  4. Immanuel

    Immanuel Senior Member Senior Member

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    INS Vikrant will probably be followed by another one of the same class, IAC-2. INS Vishal's design is not complete, doesn't matter whether we speak of a one man army or team of hundreds of engineers. Heck we are still not clear if Vishal will have coventional or nuke propulsion, either decision will have massive design implications. Till requirements are frozen, design can't be frozen. From weapons to ship's sensors all decisions have to be made at one point even if some of these things can't be decided before the design is frozen. Then comes the arduous process of preparing the build, getting all the private contractors in order and executing the build. Since we have no experience building a nuke carrier, it could take longer if we choose for nuke power. Those tests take even longer. Realistically the INS Vishal won't be ready for sea trials any time before 2028-2030.

    If jobs are a concern, they need to go ahead and order 1 more Vikrant class carrier, which if ordered this financial year can be ready for sea trials around 2025.

    Besides why would we rush into LR-SAM, MFSTAR etc. since the timelines are for 2030, by then DRDO XR-SAM could be ready for fielding in the IN as well along side Navalized QR-SAM, Brahmos-2, Nirbhay etc. I believe these things will only be finalized around 2024 when a lot of new weapons are available locally, sure by then the design is frozen and early work have well started but still idea would be to have new gen cutting edge weaponry.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
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  5. tharun

    tharun Patriot Senior Member

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    Arguing with people without knowing ground reality is useless.

    Sent from my AO5510 using Tapatalk
     
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  6. Kshithij

    Kshithij Regular Member

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    When he said that India was incapable of making it due to lack of technology, then I pitched in. If he had said that India didn't have funds, I would have kept quiet.

    I have different notion about economics due to my deeper understanding of it. I won't argue about rupee economics and rupee budget but only about capabilities and technology and Forex here. So, don't change your argument at the last minute.
     
  7. indiandefencefan

    indiandefencefan Regular Member

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    What you are talking about is the opportunity cost of making a carrier (IAC II) but what you fail to consider is what the military will have to forego in order to achieve your stated goal of a carrier by 2025.
    Lets assume that what you say is accurate in terms of expertise and technology and if we proceed on war footing and devote all possible resources to carrier construction, then ceteris paribus, what the opportunity cost (ie: the other equipment they could have purchased with the same amount of money) of the project is too great to make such a project feasible.
    That being said, while I may agree with you in terms of expertise in terms of our shipyards, I will argue that currently we do not have the necessary level of technology to construct IAC II. The power plant built for the Arihant class is geared towards undersea operations and hence, is built for low weight and stealth at the cost of speed at sea level. Thus, to upscale it to fit an aircraft carrier is not an easy task which requires a reconfiguration to improve speed at sea surface in order to keep pace with its escorts.
    For the above reasons, neither is it feasible to accommodate multiple small reactors in the carrier.
    The best course forwards in my opinion is to build a second Vikrant class carrier while expecting the IAC-II to be ready for field trials by 2030-2035 while giving BARC time till 2025 to work on the new reactor.
     
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  8. Kshithij

    Kshithij Regular Member

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    If there is a second carrier, non nuclear option will be extremely short sighted and foolish. Propulsion of submarine is definitely different from that of a carrier but carrier is much easier version than the submarine. Submarines have space constraint while carrier has enough space. This makes the equation as - if you can make a submarine, you can definitely make a carrier.

    Also, considering that EMALS has been confirmed, it would be foolish to say that design of Vishal hasn't progressed. Qhy will anyone order EMALS without confirming design?

    Conventional carrier is only for littoral waters like Mediterranean sea, Caspian sea, black sea etc and not for large area like IOR. Either there will be no funds for Carrier or there will be nuclear carrier. Simple as that.
     
  9. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    We don`t need nuclear carriers for our doctrine ..

    Conventional carrier are capable of making combat patrols at IOR with fleet support tankers, IN is and was doing this quite for some decades now ..
     
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  10. Kshithij

    Kshithij Regular Member

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    There is only 1 doctrine in defence - wipe out anything and everything that is hostile and non negotiable. If the doctrine is anything else, then it is time to change it.
     
  11. TPFscopes

    TPFscopes Rest in Peace Senior Member

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    @aditya10r
    Now this what I expecting from him. You might be correct for this case...

    @Kshithij
    IN already mentioned that they require 3 Aircraft carriers out of which 2 will remain active at all time, to control IOR. And for controlling IOR , we don't need nuclear propulsion and unlimited range for Aircraft Carriers.
    Also, at the present stage IN desire to increase the number of destroyers, frigates, submarines and induction of fast attack boats also on table. Along with this all, IN want to modernize its entire fleet because large number of battleships are near to life completion.
    Hence, they need a lot of funds and a lot of workforce. It implies that IN will not go to prioritize the IAC-2 program.
    Also, for you kind information, till now no EMALS are ordered for IN.

    Please think practically for everything,
    For nuclear reactor, Don't think that it is bajaj's DTSi that you can upscale and downscale according to your requirements.
    As I said before, IN have to fund the reactor development because they are the only user of it. But here IN is not interested to fund BARC for reactor Development..
     
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  12. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    If i am not mistaking its BARC told Navy that a reactor of such scale will not be ready to the given timelines with respect to IAC-2, Its not the other way around ..
     
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  13. aditya10r

    aditya10r Mera Bharat mahan Senior Member

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    Dude even Pakistan and china is hostile and non negotiable, doesn't mean we can wipe them out of the face of earth.

    Look Aircraft carriers are a great tool of force projection,no doubt.But their is nothing in this world which can come close to a silent fleet of SSN and SSK.We need them in numbers.

    Our country is best example for that,in 71 war we were threatened by amreeki nooclear carriers and British carriers but their carriers were kept out of our shores thanks to Soviet SSN with AShM.

    We need nuke carriers but not right now.we can have them 15-20 years from today when we will have a good technical military industry base and a good budget to afford that.But get this in your mind,SSN and SSK are immediate requirements.We need at least 30+ of them by 2030-32.We cannot compromise on that.

    Plus aircraft carriers require good number of other capital ships,can we afford to put our capital ships on duties with aircraft carriers when we have only 11 of them and approximately half of them would be in need of retirement by 2027????

    The Navy's requirements are based on current threats we cannot go bonkers and build 4-5-6 carriers just because china is building them.

    A good number of capital ships with SSN and SSK are good enough to keep IOR ours.

    Plus our role should be limited to SCS and IOR only.
     
  14. VIP

    VIP Ultra Nationalist Senior Member

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    BARC told IN that reactor needs 10+ years of development and funds. BARC asked IN for funds for development, IN bluntly said why would IN give funds to BARC? And so project stalled because of the funding issue, BARC didn't refuse to make a reactor for IAC because it didn't want to. imo, IN should fund the development as it's the primary user of such reactor, knowing BARC's expertise in this area, who else will help if not the navy? As BARC is not DRDO which focuses mainly on defence research.
     
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  15. TPFscopes

    TPFscopes Rest in Peace Senior Member

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    Its the very recent decision by IN.
     
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  16. Kshithij

    Kshithij Regular Member

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    Was this on the basis of solid source or that news clip which was filled with inconsistency that popped up recently?

    If it was that news clip, then it is most likely fake news. It stated that India needed 550MW reactor. Even USA doesn't have such big reactor in its carriers. Nimitz Class which weighs 1lakh tons has 2 reactors of 275MW each. Ford class with 1.1 lakh tons has two 330MW reactors. Comparing, Indian carrier needs two 180MW reactor for its 65k tons weight.

    As soon as I read 500-550 MW reactors are needed, I understood that it is fake news or IN is extremely crazy. Larger the reactor, higher the safety concerns and more difficult it is to contain in a moving vehicle/vessel. The melting temperature, pressure threshold etc of materials are not scalable.
     
  17. archie

    archie Regular Member

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    Exactly the Point i was making .. Supply Chain is more important to keep the Carrier Group Operational
     
  18. Tactical Frog

    Tactical Frog Regular Member

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    Project starting to take shape. Nice !
    300 Gauls can beat 300 Spartans
     
  19. aditya10r

    aditya10r Mera Bharat mahan Senior Member

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    Logical decision.

    It would be similar to use Kitty hawk class.
     
  20. Kshithij

    Kshithij Regular Member

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    I would say that it is very disappointing. It must have been nuclear powered to have more efficient operating ability and reliance on Indian fuel.

    I wonder why nuclear carrier was rejected.
     

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