INS Vishal (IAC- II) Aircraft Carrier

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by john70, Aug 21, 2012.

  1. Tactical Frog

    Tactical Frog Regular Member

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    Depends on speed of building INS Vishal. Your timeline is not ambitious enough. DCNS can be roped in to fasten things if needed. Or BAe. Chances are that INS Vishal is operational before AMCA.

    err .. speed things up :crazy:
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
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  2. TPFscopes

    TPFscopes Rest in Peace Senior Member

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    IAC-2/INS VISHAAL is still in study phase, hence we can expect 12-15 years for designing, manufacturing and extensive sea trial (only if no failure occurred during this period) and trust me it's the expected minimum time. That means the deployment of IAC-2 will not be possible before 2035.
    And it's very likely to have our almost matured 5th Generation AMCA by 2035..
     
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  3. Kshithij

    Kshithij Regular Member

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    If India takes 15 years to make 1 aircraft carrier, then India is a country that deserves to be destroyed.

    India has made INS Vikrant and is undergoing fitting. This is important as it will give India an experience in carriers. It will be much faster with added experience. Also, look at the speed of construction of Submarines and ships seen recently - its outstanding. We also have got 120-130MW reactor for Aridhaman and expanding to 180MW is not hard. 2025 is likely date. If Navy does EXTENSIVE TRIALS, it means Navy has been bought by foreign agents. Just like Aridhaman was released, the second carrier will be definitely faster. As soon as Vikrant is done, INS VISHAL will begin - by 2019. AMCA is dated for 2030.

    @Tactical Frog is correct in saying that AMCA will not fly in INS VISHAL.
     
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  4. TPFscopes

    TPFscopes Rest in Peace Senior Member

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  5. Tactical Frog

    Tactical Frog Regular Member

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    First I trust you as an expert here. And someone extremely well informed. But sometimes the engineers and designers can be properly motivated to achieve what they see as impossible . The Elon Musk or Steve Jobs management style ...

    HMS Queen Elisabeth II was laid down in July 2009 and launched in July 2014. It is supposed to enter service in 2020 ( with a ridiculous air wing but that is another story).
    11 years ... if you could only speed up the design process and start the work in 2019 then 2030 for deployment should be the target, not 2035.
     
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  6. TPFscopes

    TPFscopes Rest in Peace Senior Member

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    I think you are to much inspired by movies and theories..
    Let me elaborate the case in practical manner
    Only if we decide our requirements(which is underway) for IAC-2 than after we require ~12-15 years (with no delays for anything).
    We are not talking about UK, which is many times ahead of India in terms of technology.
    1st they have almost every technology required to built an Aircraft Carrier and
    2nd the remaining which they don't have, can buy from its close ally US (India is not that much closer).
    3rd they are technologically sound than us and have greater experience with Aircraft Carrier manufacturing & designing.

    I still don't want to completely rely on so called PSU's motivation when/until we don't have all required technology under one roof.

    Note: Till now, I didn't talk about the continuous flow funds..

    And for AMCA (Air Force version), I've very positive feelings that we will begin induction by 2030, rest you can speculate...
     
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  7. Kshithij

    Kshithij Regular Member

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    And, what is the technology for aircraft carrier that we lack? Aircraft carriers are not that complicated technology like fighter jets. And, we have already made a carrier - vikrant
     
  8. tharun

    tharun Patriot Senior Member

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    We lack lot of technologies.
    Building aircraft carrier is not like building fishing boat. It took 8 years to build and commission ford class carrier for usa with that much of experience and knowledge.
    Aircraft carrier are more complicated.
    We already 'built' aircraft carrier which is still in dockyards not yet sailed or atleast went for a trails.

    Sent from my AO5510 using Tapatalk
     
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  9. An Angry Potato

    An Angry Potato Regular Member

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    Vikrant is not operational yet. Its still in the dock. Building a 65,000 ton warship is exceptionally complicated. Even Vikrant faced delays over tech availability. Also IAC II is to use different launching mechanisms and (potentially) propulsion. So yeah, we have a fairly long way to go.
     
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  10. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Do you make the propulsion? radar? cat and trap? aviation shop? elevators? network C&C? electrical plant?
     
  11. Kshithij

    Kshithij Regular Member

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    Vikrant faced delays due to UPA, not technology availability.

    Fairly long is a relative term. If it is 15 years, it is unfairly long term.

    USA launched NIMITZ carriers quite quickly if that is the standard. Even ford class was launched in 3-4 years but commissioned 4 years later. So, the concept of 15 years is your ill intent qnd not reality. Vishal is also 65000 ton and not 11000 ton as Ford class which reduces time.

    We lack lot of technology is so vague, it appears that it is your spite and ill intentions that make you speak that way. More specifically, which is the technology we lack that takes such long times is the real question.

    About nuclear propulsion, India is building 1 submarine every year of nuclear category and that is proof enough to Indian capability of making reactor and propulsion. Also, the scaling up of arihant reactor to Aridhaman reactor is also an example of scaling up ability. It means, even 180MW Reactor can be made fairly quickly.

    EMALS is a new technology and for that USA had agreed to sell 2 EMALS which will reduce the time needed to develop and test.

    Vikrant was 40k ton carrier spanning 2.5 Acre area and that has been built. Drawing on the experience, building Vikrant becomes easier.
     
  12. Kshithij

    Kshithij Regular Member

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    Does Vikrant run like a bucket fitted with a motor? Where does Vikrant have all these from? Don't we also have ASW warship, sonars, Kolkata destroyers, Aridhaman submarine etc? Are all these waste? If not, the technology can be shared.

    Either India has technology or it doesn't. In this case, there is clear evidence of technology being used and only requires fine tuning to fit a bigger carrier than Vikrant.
     
  13. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Why do you think China bought several foreign aircraft carriers? To make casinos? Why does Russia not have a modern carrier? It is not so easy, otherwise everyone would have it.
     
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  14. Kshithij

    Kshithij Regular Member

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    Russia has no sea control in relevant areas due to geographic reasons. It doesn't have bases everywhere like USA. There is no use of carriers in large numbers for Russia. Russian projection is limited due to lack of depth in its oceanic areas. Just look at russia in world map.
    540px-Russia_in_Asia_(-mini_map_-rivers).svg.png

    Russian Pacific side is generally blocked with ice and the narrow sea in Caspian or black sea is too small to have a carrier. Why would Russia even want many carriers?

    China never had carrier till now and hence bought one from Russia. Now, Chinese are building 5 more of them on their own after gaining experience and that too after self-refitting an old carrier which had been stripped down. If anything, it is an example of how easy carrier technology actually is. Chinese haven't yet succeeded in jet engine but are already making carriers despite starting late.

    Carriers are big ships (vikrant is 2.5 acre large and 100 feet tall and Vishal will be larger) with landing strips and heavy payload, nothing else. They are big but not technologically over complex. It is just that, being an expensive project, more care has to be taken and not about technology.
     
  15. TPFscopes

    TPFscopes Rest in Peace Senior Member

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    Please share your opinions for Indian options for IAC-2 (without speculations and hypothesis):
    1. Propulsion (power source + gear systems)
    2. Launch and recovery system.
    3. Radars (long range and multi function)
    4. MRSAM/LRSAM
    5. Other short range armaments.
    6. IMPS (Integrated Platform Management System)
    7. EW & Decoys

    Apart from these there are further many systems which are completely imported from abroad. And Do you know we consult Fincanterri and Russian fir designing the IAC-1 which will further needed because we doubled our requirements for IAC-2
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2017
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  16. Immanuel

    Immanuel Senior Member Senior Member

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    INS Vishal is still very much in design phase and work on it won't begin till well beyond 2022, expect 7-8 year build time and atleast a year or more of sea trials. IF IN gets on-board the AMCA train now, INS Vishal can deploy it.
     
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  17. Kshithij

    Kshithij Regular Member

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    All of these can be developed parallel to construction.

    MRSAM is BARAK-8 with maybe indigenous seeker which is in development.

    Radar is also used as in MRSAM and QR SAM.

    Short ranged equipment can be built in India like ATGM, QRSAM, etc

    Launch and recovery is decided as EMALS. It can be imported

    Propulsion is 2 nuclear reactors of 180MW. The Aridhaman 130MW ones can be uprated. Vishal will have an area of 4 acres and 100+ feet height. So, space restraint of submarine doesn't exist. Uprating won't be hard with such generous space available. Even 3 reactor can be used if necessary. Total power requirements is 360MW (Nimitz class has 550MW for 1lakh ton weight. Vishal is 65% of it and hence 350MW-360MW is sufficient)

    Other EW etc can be made by using the ones used in AMCA, Kolkata destroyer etc. 7-8 years is enough for development and fine tuning from existing infrastructure.

    You are simply assuming that these things will be developed serially. But, these things are from different departments and hence will be developed in parallel.
     
  18. Kshithij

    Kshithij Regular Member

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    What will the docks do once Vikrant is released? Will the workers go unemployed? It is important yo construct another carrier to keep the working force active. It is not a matter of choice. Design - design is something I have been hearing for more than 2 years now. I don't know what kind of designing take 5 years? Is the design team a 1 man army?
     
  19. TPFscopes

    TPFscopes Rest in Peace Senior Member

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    Still you are dependent on speculations..
    If you want anything on time than you have all the components which are already Developed. You can't wait for others to complete its development which may require further modifications which needs further delays..
    Correct your calculations about height that it will have nearly 205 feet of bottom to mast height.

    Can be uprared, can be derived, these terms can not fulfill your desire to get your ACC within your desired timeline. That is why I said it need minimum 12-15 years from laid down of keel to commission..
    But you can launch IAC-2 in 4-5 years because it doesn't requires anything except a lot of steel and manpower..

    Good Day
     
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  20. Kshithij

    Kshithij Regular Member

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    I agree with the development part. But, the point here is we already have the technology you specified. Can be uprated means that technology already exists. All that is needed is orders to manufacture. As I said, the manufacture part is all left. If you are expecting people to manufacture everything even before any orders are placed to simply keep them as showpiece, then you have something wrong with you.

    The biggest part here is 4 acre of area which means making 180MW reactor is a piece of cake. There is no uncertainty here. Problem will come if you are planning to make a reactor of 180MW which can be used in submarine as well as carrier as that will then come down to space constraints.

    Also, the other items like NAG, QRSAM, Radar, Brahmos, BARAK-8, Torpedo etc have already been developed and tested.
     

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