INS Vishal (IAC- II) Aircraft Carrier - Flattop or Ski Jump

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Sir, the Steam produced in the heat exchanger of the reactor runs the Turbine, which inturn runs the Generators. So won't it be adding extra equipments (Generators, Electric motors) into the Transmission system??

Exactly..Does not make sense to convert steam into electricity and then use for propulsion..This would lead to more energy loses and can be avoided.

 

[pmaitra]

1) Why are nuke reactors used to produce steam for propulsion? Why not produce electricity instead and use electric motors for propulsion?

Water acts as the heat exchanger. That seems to be a convenient way to exchange heat. In place of water, one could use metal as well. There are reactors where the first heat exchanger has the medium of liquid Sodium, which then transfers to the second heat exchanger to water, and then to a third, which is also water.

The temperature of the N-Reactor core is so high, that producing electricity directly is, insofar, beyond human engineering capability.

Sir, the Steam produced in the heat exchanger of the reactor runs the Turbine, which inturn runs the Generators. So won't it be adding extra equipments (Generators, Electric motors) into the Transmission system??

The power output of a N-Reactor cannot be raised or lowered quickly. I believe, there are batteries that get charged as well. A direct drive transmission would be difficult to control, such as, when there is a need for a sudden stop or sudden acceleration. It is easier if the propellers are run using electricity.

 

[Decklander]

You need to cool down the reactor and remove the heat. So steam is a by product whichever way you may like to use the reactor. Now if you convert this steam energy first into electrical energy and than drive the shafts, you will lose double the energy in converting it from one form to another. So it is more efficient to use the steam to directly drive the shafts thru turbines than to drive generators and electricity from generators to drive the shaft.
The reactor of Arihant is yet to be proven in operational service and IN needs to acquire experience on it before using it on surface ships. IAC-1 was planned when we were not sure about Arihant timeframe. Now for IAC-2, you might see two reactors of 150MW each being used instead of present 80MW reactors of Arihant. The new reactors are under development for the follow on series of Arihant class which will be much bigger subs.

 

[nirranj]

The power output of a N-Reactor cannot be raised or lowered quickly. I believe, there are batteries that get charged as well. A direct drive transmission would be difficult to control, such as, when there is a need for a sudden stop or sudden acceleration. It is easier if the propellers are run using electricity.

A electric propulsion will also need battery backup? in case of a system (nuclear system) malfunction, the ship will need batteries to power the electric.
Wont they occypy more space and add more to the Gross weight of the carrier??

But is there any RnD going on in anywhere of the world to use fuel cells as the power source for ships??

 

[pmaitra]

A electric propulsion will also need battery backup? in case of a system (nuclear system) malfunction, the ship will need batteries to power the electric.
Wont they occypy more space and add more to the Gross weight of the carrier??

But is there any RnD going on in anywhere of the world to use fuel cells as the power source for ships??

Not a battery backup, but a battery to act as a buffer between the electricity produced form the turbines and the electricity supplied to the drive motors. Alternatively, consider a capacitor based system, that is currently used in CLW built WAP 7 locomotives as a buffer for energy generated via regenerative braking. To have a battery essentially as a backup of a N-reactor, it would be of massive size. Theoretically, it is possible.

 

[nirranj]

Not a battery backup, but a battery to act as a buffer between the electricity produced form the turbines and the electricity supplied to the drive motors. Alternatively, consider a capacitor based system, that is currently used in CLW built WAP 7 locomotives as a buffer for energy generated via regenerative braking. To have a battery essentially as a backup of a N-reactor, it would be of massive size. Theoretically, it is possible.

Ok. Coming to your previous comment,

The power output of a N-Reactor cannot be raised or lowered quickly.

Are You mentioning that a Reactor cannot be stopped or started in a minimum time? or are You saying that the power output from the turbine cannot be raised or lowered quickly? Isn't the power output of the turbines directly proportional to the steam Pressure? So just produce more steam from the heat exchanger can do the trick. Also the gear boxes do the same work.

 

[delta]

Are You mentioning that a Reactor cannot be stopped or started in a minimum time? or are You saying that the power output from the turbine cannot be raised or lowered quickly? Isn't the power output of the turbines directly proportional to the steam Pressure? So just produce more steam from the heat exchanger can do the trick. Also the gear boxes do the same work.

having worked in power plants before (though not nuclear ones), i can tell you this is not a quick process. the steam takes time to build up, and depending upon your operational requirements, that time may be too much or sufficient. a battery bank on the other hand, will provide instant energy.

as far as gearboxes are concerned, im not sure whether they are used in the propulsion of ships.

 

[ninja85]

A.K Anthony

no buddy whole corrupt congress.

 

[sivachandan]

"¨"¨"©Pipavav has very large area and Vishal can only be made there.After hearing such internal sources' words about iac-1, pipavav owners upgraded the shipyard and made it capable to do anything but you can see how it has been dumped for iac-1.There's no technical reason to shift the plan to kochi as it's too small for vikrant, pipavav is ideal place.Only political reason is suspected.Now I guess if this project is gonna be delayed and not awarded to pipavav than god bless India.Politics should be remained out of such security matters.

yes, it is true Pipav has one of the very advanced and big dry docks and it is a very capable shipyard to hope IAC 2 goes to pipav

 

[rajsking]

While reading about Aircraft Carriers(ACC) - I could not stop the urge to express my noob idea on the same.

I got to see some pics of hangers of various ACC and found them to be too complex. Moreover, I found it rather surprising that most of the aircrafts (AC) on such ships are parked on the deck itself. And more than that which bewilders me is that even in the latest ACC ( successor of Nimitz class), it is a pain to carry weapons from below the deck to the AC and then loading it onto the AC. Slow and inefficient process. I must also mention that I found info on sinodefence also useful as the site contains pics showing internal layouts of major ACC.

My main idea revolves around internal storage of AC in the ACC. With emphasis on ensuring productivity of AC turnaround (i.e. ensuring min downtime it takes to equip weapons and load fuel on plane) Other systems like lifts, pilot's rooms, worker's rooms, weapons storage etc can be built around it.
ACC can be thus made more compact (width-wise) although it may increase the height of the ACC.

Now refer the image

1)Major change is using a multi-level automated AC parking in the ACC with automated retrival system. I got the idea from automated car parking which is being promoted in metros nowadays. All fighter AC can be parked here. Odd items like helicopters, recon AC can be parked on the deck.
2) On one side of the multi level parking, we have a line where we weaponise AC. Again - akin to the assembly line of Car manufacturing. Workers will lift weapons from the weapons bay and put them on AC. Weapons bay are automatically fed with weapons from the weapons storage at levels below. (similar to how harpoons are loaded in the subs or a baggage handling system at airports). This ensures minimize manual labour involved in weapons handling. Plus added safety.
3) Opposite side of Weapons bay we have fuel storage and fuel filling stations. Few stations are also put on the deck. Deck-fueling will enable quick turnarounds, when the AC are re-flying w/o the need of re-equipping weapons. Deck fueling will also be used for helicopters and recon AC.
4) Now at one end of this AC storage, we have lifts which brings Ac from the deck to hanger. Now, at time of attack, the AC can be send directly on the assembly line to weaponise Or can be send to storage system from there.
5) Likewise, upward lift is placed at other end of weaponisation-line. AC is taken up, rotated through 180 degrees and from there it flew off. No loitering of AC on the hanger to reach the start of run-off platform.

I foresee a huge reduction in manpower needed to run such an ACC. our IAC1 needs about 1600+ people. But I see much less manpower requirement if our IAC2 is made something like this.

The only technical difficulty I foresee is fixing the jig on the AC before putting it on down-lift in a very short time. Without the use of jig, I foresee time delay in parking Ac on the lift properly. Since, lifts are already used to carry AC up and down, would like to understand how it is being done presently.

PS - It is my first attempt at MS paint - kindly excuse.

 

[bengalraider]

@rajsking- good design there but you forget that aircraft are not only armed on board an AC they are also maintained, i.e that needs workshops engine overhaul shops, mechanical repair and fabrication shops(minor components only), stores, tyre replacement areas, hydraulic check areas etc. an Aircraft carrier's lower deck pays host to all of these units and more, most aircraft are stored on top so that there is enough space to work on the lower floor, Aircraft carriers are floating airbases and as such perform all rudimentary duties of an airbase including maintenance work on the aircraft, that my friend takes up most of the space on the lower decks.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

@rajsking

I encourage you to post your suggestions here.

You might start a lively discussion.

Aircraft Carriers Forum

 

[rajsking]

@bengalraider

I have only seen pics of hangers of various ACC. I am not an expert but - one thing I can say is compared to deck - capacity of hanger is much small. So I presume not much space is required for maintenance.
Since, we have multilevel parking one side, in space just beside the lowest level of such parking we can accommodate such maintenance line. while space beside the topmost level of multilevel parking is reserved for weapons loading - as shown in pic.
@W.G.Ewald
Thanks for your encouragement. But, one forum is sufficient for me at present. So will avoid joining any new forum as of now. There is another reason for it.
Regarding propagating my idea - I would like to discuss the same initially with Indian navy personnel - to know their views and see if we can improve upon the idea. Call it being patriotic, but I would prefer that indian navy should be the first who sees this noob idea.
On this note, I have asked the mods to let me get in touch with @Decklander. I hoped that he can give his expert opinion and let me get in touch with defense personal. I am again asking mods @Singh @Kunal Biswas, @Yusuf if they can help me in reaching out to @Decklander sir or directly though navy.

I would prefer if you will respect my wishes and you also refrain from posting similar ideas elsewhere - atleast for some more time. Once I am able to communicate the same to someone from Indian navy - i will follow your suggestion and post it on these forums.

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

nuclear power shouldnt be considered for vishal,it will only delay the induction of carrier. Lets first get some experience in carrier building before jumping to such complex schemes. Example- gtre kaveri project.

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

the third IAC can be considered for nuclear propulsion.

 

[archie]

Most Engengineering projects are designed in mind with one moto.. No single failure should affect the whole system..

With this in Mind . Just a reactor will not be sufficient .. Malfuntion or shut down of the reactor for any reason will cause the ship to be powerless and unmanuvarable if its direct drive further power production is not instantaious in any reaction.. Battries will be avilable as a switching system only and presence of An Auxilly power source a must.. the ship would be manuvarable using auxilary but but would not be able travel far or fast.. im sure designers would think all sorts of situations and make provisions for it..

 

[Neeraj Mathur]

any latest update on IAC-II

 

[Neeraj Mathur]

Navy may go for nuclear-powered aircraft carrier

New Delhi, Sep 23 (PTI) The Navy today said it was working on the design of the second indigenous aircraft carrier which may be propelled by a nuclear-powered engine.

The design is at a conceptual stage, Director General of Naval Design Bureau Rear Admiral Atul Saxena said when asked if the force was considering using nuclear-powered engine for it.

fullstory

 

[ladder]

Navy may go for nuclear-powered aircraft carrier

New Delhi, Sep 23 (PTI) The Navy today said it was working on the design of the second indigenous aircraft carrier which may be propelled by a nuclear-powered engine.

The design is at a conceptual stage, Director General of Naval Design Bureau Rear Admiral Atul Saxena said when asked if the force was considering using nuclear-powered engine for it.

fullstory

It is where we go wrong, there should have been another ship exactly built to Vikrant's specification before venturing into nuclear power carrier.

 

[Dhairya Yadav]

Navy may go for nuclear-powered aircraft carrier

New Delhi, Sep 23 (PTI) The Navy today said it was working on the design of the second indigenous aircraft carrier which may be propelled by a nuclear-powered engine.

The design is at a conceptual stage, Director General of Naval Design Bureau Rear Admiral Atul Saxena said when asked if the force was considering using nuclear-powered engine for it.

fullstory

get ready for another delay ! However, I always doubt such reports. Any other tried and tested source?