India Russia Relations

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Will India Give Up on Building Stealth Fighters with Russia?


India’s Air Force is pushing the government to abandon a massive deal with Russia for a fifth-generation fighter aircraft, citing its inferiority to America’s F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

This week,Defense Newsreported that the Indian Air Force (IAF) has been pushing back against the proposed nearly $10 billion agreement for India and Russia to jointly develop and produce a fifth-generation fighter aircraft, or FGFA. A senior IAF official toldDefense News, “IAF is not keen to continue with the program,” adding that the service had raised its concern with the Ministry of Defense.

The article lists a number of IAF concerns. First among them is that the Air Force believes the plane’s stealth and cross-section features are inferior to America’s F-35. Another concern, according to the article, is that the FGFA “does not have modular engine concept, making maintenance and serviceability of the fleet expensive and troublesome.” A second IAF official explained that the lack of a modular engine would prevent India’s Air Force from repairing planes in-house. Instead, servicing would have to be performed by the manufacturer. Previously, IAF sources have complained about the high maintenance costs of the Su-30 planes India purchased from Russia.

This is not the first time the IAF has expressed opposition to the bilateral agreement, which has India procuring between 120 and 130 planes. Just last month, an Indian media outlet published a report citing IAF complaints about the expected cost of the aircraft.

“Sources said the investment of $6.7 billion (Rs 44,800 crore) would give India only four prototypes of the FGFA aircraft and it will have to pay another $135 million (Rs 900 crore) each for the 127 planes, which would be ready for induction only after 2027–28,”India Todayreported in September. “The cost per aircraft at the time of delivery in 2027–28, due to high inflation in defense deals, would come around $250 million bringing the total project value to around $32 billion (Rs 2 lakh crore).”

India’s Air Force’s opposition is not the only issue holding up the agreement. The two countries have also clashed over the issue of sensitive technology transfers from Russia to India. As theDiplomatreported in Marchof this year[8]: “India wants a guarantee that [it] will be able to upgrade the fighter jet in the future without Russian support, which would require Moscow sharing source codes (sensitive computer code that controls the fighter jet’s various systems — the key to an aircraft’s electronic brains). In addition, the FGFA should directly support India’s advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) program—a separate Indian fifth generation fighter project.” One Indian officialhas called[9]the last demand “mandatory.” Another issue, although one that appears to be resolved, is over how many planes each side will buy for their own armed forces.

Still, there are signs for continued support for the deal from both sides. For instance, in February of this year, theHindustan Times reported that the Ministry of Defense established a panel to review the FGFA program and offer up recommendations. In August, it was reported that the four-person panel “strongly recommended” moving forward with the program. After theDefense Newsreport was published this week, Russia's official arms exporter, Rosoboronexport, put out a statement saying that both countries remain committed to developing the FGFA. “Currently, the Russian-Indian inter-governmental agreement is in effect; there are commitments, under which the parties are implementing the joint project for developing the 5th-generation plane in accordance with the agreed stages and time limits,” Rosoboronexport said, according to Russian media.

The FGFA program dates back to 2007, when India and Russia signed an agreement to explore jointly developing a fifth-generation aircraft. Three years later, the two countries reached an agreement to spend $295 million for a preliminary design of the jet. The project stalled after that phase, however, until reports last spring suggested that the two sides could reach an agreement to each invest $4 billion to complete the final phase of the plane’s development. The increasingly vocal opposition from India’s Air Force is likely an attempt to prevent that deal from ever coming to fruition.

If the two sides decide to move forward, the plan is for the FGFA to be based on the Sukhoi Su-57, Moscow’s first fifth-generation aircraft. As Franz-Stefan Gadyhas explained, “The Sukhoi Su-57 is a fifth-generation multirole, single seat, twin-engine air superiority/deep air support fighter intended to replace the Russian Air Force’s fleet of MiG-29 and Su-27. The Su-57 will be armed with beyond visual range air-to-air missiles as well as of air-to-ground missiles including the extended range Kh-35UE tactical cruise missile.”

Russian media have explained that the FGFA itself will be modified to meet India’s technical needs. This likely will include enabling it to carry Indian-origin weaponry. In addition,Tass has reportedd the modifications will include “the design and development of a two-seater version of the aircraft, the integration of an advanced engine with increased thrust are planned at the request of India.” Russian mediahave also said that after India purchases the jet, it could be exported to other countries.

https://scout.com/military/warrior/...Building-Stealth-Fighters-with-Russ-109574225
 

Kalki_2018

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Does IAF know that IDF-AF lost 1 or 2 F-35's to the vintage S-200's in Syria?? Of course the official story is stork hit?
 

Akhileshwa

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Does IAF know that IDF-AF lost 1 or 2 F-35's to the vintage S-200's in Syria?? Of course the official story is stork hit?
When did the Israeli airforce lose a plane in Syria? I follow the events and while Syrians have claimed many times to have shot Israeli drones I haven't seen much of a proof. And now f-35 of everything ! ?
Please show the source.

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk
 

Willy2

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When did the Israeli airforce lose a plane in Syria? I follow the events and while Syrians have claimed many times to have shot Israeli drones I haven't seen much of a proof. And now f-35 of everything ! ?
Please show the source.

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk
They stated birdstrike disable a F-35 . So badly that it might not fly again ...really ??? Birdstrike
 

Kalki_2018

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Like I said it is not publicized and Israel will not openly admit that S-200 was able to tackle F-35.
 

Rus

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Hi, wanted to know more and discuss with respected forum members about position of New-Delhi on dialogue of international policy strategy in the frames India-Russia-China dialogue and co-operation.Thank you
As well as the position on TAPI - Turkmenistan-Afghanistan-Pakistan-India gas pipeline project, which has been widely discussed all over.
 

Kalki_2018

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Is there a India-Russia-china dialogue?? Except for the BRICS platform I don't see any common policy platform. India-Russia pretty much discuss whats in their interest between themselves.

The TAPI like IPI is dead on arrival as long as it passes through pakistan. Maybe after PoK is taken back.
 

Butter Chicken

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Can't link India's case for NSG membership with that of Pakistan: Russia

NEW DELHI: Even as China continues to stall India's Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) membership, Russia has come out strongly in support of India saying that India's application cannot be "interlinked" with that of Pakistan and that Moscow is discussing the issue with Beijing at different levels. China has favoured a criteria-based approach for expansion of the 48-member group, which controls international nuclear commerce, instead of one based on merit, in what India sees an attempt to draw a false equivalence between India's case and Pakistan's.

The issue again came up for discussion on Wednesday as Russia's deputy foreign minister Sergey Ryabkov met foreign secretary S Jaishankar. "We recognise that at the moment there is no unanimity on Pakistan's application and that the same cannot be interlinked with India's," said Ryabkov, after his meeting with Jaishankar.

This is probably the first time that a top Russian diplomat has publicly drawn attention to the futility of juxtaposing the 2 cases. "We know about the difficulties involved but unlike some other countries, who only speak, we are making practical efforts...we are discussing it with China at different levels,'' he added. Earlier this year, foreign minister Sushma Swaraj had said that India had approached Russia to convince China to drop its opposition to India's membership.
That Moscow doesn't expect China to relent though without a concerted effort from all member states was evident from Ryabkov's remark that he found the politicisation of the issue unfortunate and that other nations needed to play a more positive role for India's membership. He didn't name these nations though. Significantly, as he backed India's case for membership of all export control regimes, Ryabkov said that he expected India to join The Wassenaar Arrangement as early as Thursday. The 41-nation group, of which China is not a member, deals with export controls for conventional arms and dual-use goods and technologies.

While Ryabkov admitted that Russia was looking to build ties with Pakistan, a country he described as taking great interest in multilateral forums, he said Russia had no ``hidden agenda'' in its dealings with Islamabad. ``I can assure you that Russia's ties with no country in the world will come at the expense of its relationship with India,'' said Ryabkov.
On the issue of cross-border terrorism, Ryabkov said a very "forceful" message had been sent out at the Brics summit in Xiamen this year and that international and pragmatic cooperation was required to defeat those individuals who were operating outside of their countries. For India, the big takeaway from the Xiamen Declaration was the naming of Pakistan based terror groups like LeT and JeM. This exercise was at least partly undone by China later though when it blocked a UN ban on JeM chief Masood Azhar. Ryabkov said though that India's "very firm and convincing" position on terrorism was yielding fruits and that this was evident from the message in Xiamen.
On the issue of North Korea, which too was discussed between the two countries, Ryabkov reiterated Russia's position that there was no alternative to a political "track" for resolving the issues and that all parties needed to show restraint. "We don't believe there is place for more sanctions on North Korea," said Ryabkov, adding that there were commonalities in the position taken by both Russia and India. As Swaraj said recently, India believes that some channels of communication with Pyongyang should remain open.
 

prohumanity

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Russia has always been a sincere friend of India. Russians are straight talkers and don't twist or manipulate their
views to suit the audience. It's part of Russian Culture to be straightforward and direct.
India, Russia and United States have a lot in common as far as values and principles are concerned. These nations to live in cooperation to defeat barbaric, fundamentalist Islamic terrorists.
Russia fought Nazis, it fought feudals and it still is fighting Islamic terrorists in Chechnia, Dagestan, Syria and many other places. Sushmaji is doing a great job in coordinating India's foreign policy beautifully.
 

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Russian firms seek purchase assurance from India: official

Moscow: India should assure Russian companies that it will buy their India-made spares and not go for cheaper purchase from a third country to address its armed forces long grievance of delays in procuring critical defence equipment from Moscow, a top Russian official has said.

Viktor N Kladov, director for international cooperation and regional policy, Rostec, a state-owned Russian defence and industrial group, said Russia has chalked out a strategy to build technical service centres in India dedicated for specific equipment. "India has bought a lot of Soviet and Russian made defence equipment and a bulk of these equipment requires modernisation, upgrade and repair and this can be done in the country (India).

The way to address this problem is to set up facilities with our partners. We also need assurance from the Indian side that their products will be used by the end user," Kaldov told PTI in Moscow.

It has been a long-standing grievance of the Indian armed forces that supply of critical spares and equipment from Russia takes a long-time, affecting maintenance of military systems procured from Moscow.

Terming it a "complicated issue", Kaldov said Rostec was cooperating with Indian defence ministry to address the problem and manufacturing company Russian Helicopters plans to create service in India on the principle of "one window", which will simplify and accelerate the work in this direction.

"This is a pilot project and India is the first country where it is being implemented. India is interested in the implementation of this project, as it is operating the largest fleet of Russian helicopters," he said.

Russia has been a major supplier of military platforms to India. Kladov said Rostec companies were interested in increasing the efficiency of after-sales service and simplifying the procedures for supply of spare parts to India. "About a year ago, the Government of Russia decided to grant the right to a number of major Russian defence industry companies to directly conduct after-sales service, repair and modernisation of previously delivered military hardware.

"Now Russian Helicopters, United Engine Corporation, Techmash, Schwabe and High-Precision Weapons can directly interact with Indian customers on these issues," he said.

Kaldov noted that the very sophisticated defence equipment needed to be addressed in a specific workshop and licensed parts and spares should be used and technology of repair should be controlled by the manufacturer and the chief designer of the products. "This is an issue which is both sided. And our rule is to provide life time support for the equipment. Sometimes the end user becomes opportunistic and its looking to buy spares elsewhere to make it cheaper. So they are outsourced in other countries," he said.
 

Hindustani78

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Cabinet approves MoU on cooperation on Youth matters between India and Russia

Exchange programmes in the field of Youth Affairs between India and Russia will help in promoting exchange of ideas, values and culture amongst Youth through establishment of people-to-people contacts and in consolidating friendly relations between the two countries.
 

delbruky

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Rogozin came and went. Seems like a non event. No word on kamov 225 production. Russian hot air is now fully blown. Not much juice left in this stale relationship.
 

Butter Chicken

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Has Russia Lost Patience With India?

Russian attempts to punish perceived Indian transgressions could have serious impact on their relationship.

First, on February 17, a rebel leader from Balochistan province in Pakistan, who had been residing in exile in Moscow for the last 18 years, switched sides. Dr. Jumma Marri Baloch has long been one of the major leaders of the movement in the western province of Balochistan to free itself from Pakistan. He reportedly designed the flag of the “free Balochistan” separatist movement. In his reconciliation interview with a Russian media outlet, Marri blamed India for hijacking the indigenous Baloch revolt. As the drama unfolded in Moscow, one may wonder whether it was a not so subtle a message to Delhi about Russian ability to embarrass India if such a need arises.

The government of India is hard-pressed to cater to Russian interests. The armed forces, particularly the Air Force, have been seeking to diversify their base by procuring Western weaponry. The intelligentsia, though, is tired of expensive imports and is keen on spinning up indigenous development. To add to New Delhi’s woes, Western officials are now also pressuring their Indian counterparts for lucrative armament contracts. The election of Donald Trump to the U.S. presidency and his push toward selling American products abroad is unlikely to ease this pressure.

Much to the surprise and anger of Moscow, the IAF has asked for a classified briefing on the F-35 from Lockheed Martin. If India does not have funds to spare for the Russian planes, how can it possibly muster funds for the F-35? This is the question that is being asked. The Indian pilots, meanwhile, want to know why they should pay for a plane that the Russian air force itself is unwilling to fly.

In order to convince the Indians about the viability of the program, the Russian Defense Ministry ordered 12 planes on February 8. It has also deployed them in Syria to counter the media narrative against the fighters. The advanced planes are not needed in the Syrian conflict, where the Russian air force’s primary role is to bomb insurgents, but Moscow has taken a leaf out of the book of Western players. Both Rafale and Eurofighter have been used in Syria and Libya despite not being needed in the primarily uncontested bombing roles. But IAF has remained distant to the planes, claiming them to be too similar to the Sukhoi 30, which India already has in its arsenal.

Russia has threatened to go ahead with another partner for the fifth-generation fighter aircraft if India is unable to make up its mind on the long-delayed project. The invitation to the Pakistani foreign minister seems to have flown after the leaking of IAF’s desire to have a look at the F-35.

In geostrategic terms, an India-Russia split would harden the periphery versus core competition that is taking shape. Trump’s pressure on Pakistan at a time Russia is inviting it in with open arms could also lead to a change in its outlook. While India would be locked out of Central Asia, Russia would also end up becoming even more dependent on China. It is tough to say which state may end up with the worse of the bargain.
 

aarav

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This is very significant as Russia has decided it no longer respect India's core interest, there faltering economy and negative population rate coupled with sanctions has made Putin desperate ,India as a response should increase its strategic ties with Ukraine and and we need to show Putin that his action with pakistan will cost russia dear.
 

aarav

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Russia needs China above all and it seems they are willing to follow their lead on some matters.

But the #presstitue claims need to be taken with a pinch of salt.
Russia also did military exercises with Pakistan just after Uri Terrorist attacks inside PoK and if that is not a red line for our so called strategic relations then we might as well go back in Soviet times when we were there lackeys and KGB was at large in India doing communist propaganda and moles of KGB was in every party
 

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