Indigenous SSN

[Kunal Biswas]

It will be serial produce by Pipavav, But the software and warhead technology will be provided by DRDO, Batteries on other hand from other Indian pvt.co ..

Wow, that's a big indiginization for Atlas/Pipavav

 

[SajeevJino]

Govt approves construction of 6 nuclear-powered submarines​

In a major step towards building a formidable blue-water Navy for the future, the Modi government has cleared the indigenous construction of seven stealth frigates and six nuclear-powered attack submarines, which together will cost well upwards of Rs 1 lakh crore.

The Cabinet committee on security (CCS) took these decisions in tune with the "critical necessity" for India to bolster its "overall deterrence capability" in the entire Indian Ocean Region (IOR), especially its primary area of strategic interest stretching from the Persian Gulf to Malacca Strait.

The complex project for the nuclear-powered submarines (SSNs) will take longer. After the CCS approval, technical parameters or naval staff qualitative requirements (NSQRs) will now be drafted for the over 6,000-tonne submarines.

The SSNs are likely to be constructed at the secretive ship-building centre (SBC) in Vizag, where India's first three SSBNs (nuclear-powered submarines with nuclear ballistic missiles) are being built to complete the country's nuclear weapons triad.

The government has basically "reworked" the 30-year diesel-electric submarine-building plan, approved by the CCS in 1999, which envisaged induction of 12 new conventional submarines by 2012, followed by another dozen by 2030. But with no new submarine inducted till now, the government has decided to go in for six SSNs and 18 conventional vessels, said sources.

Nuclear-powered submarines are much deadlier than diesel-electric submarines since they do not need to surface every few days to get oxygen to recharge their batteries. "SSNs, which usually carry only conventional missiles, can swiftly and quietly undertake long-range patrols. They can run at high speeds like 30 knots for much longer distances, hunting for targets and gathering intelligence," said an expert.

INS Chakra, the nuclear-powered Akula-II class SSN taken on a 10-year lease from Russia, may not be armed with long-range missiles due to international treaties, but has bolstered India's depleting underwater combat arm that is currently grappling with just 13 ageing conventional diesel-electric submarines.

Govt approves construction of 7 stealth frigates, 6 nuclear-powered submarines - The Times of India

 

[ezsasa]

Good for IN, long term plan is emerging finally.

On a lighter note:
It looks like taking DM on 24 hour cruise trip last week worked well for IN, this is where IAF is at a disadvantage. Even if they manage to take DM on Sukhoi ride, chances are that he will be thinking more about not ----ng rather than appreciating the prowess of the machine. Aero india is the best chance to impress both PM and DM at the same time.

 

[bengalraider]

I am starting this thread to discuss the Indian navy's ongoing project to develop a line of SSNs. I had speculated in the rafale thread about the possibility of the huge amount being paid for the rafale being a cover for SSN(barracuda) tech transfer, seems I may have been right after all. We might end up with a mix of barracudas and akulas guarding our shores.

http://m.economictimes.com/news/def...g-nuclear-submarines/articleshow/49131287.cms

India may get US, French cos as partners for building nuclear submarines
NEW DELHI: For the first time India has options when it comes to finding a partner to build a military nuclear asset. Besides Russia, ship builders from France and the US have started initial conversations with the defence ministry on participating in an Indian effort to build a new class of nuclear-powered attack submarines.

Russia has been the traditional ally of India when it comes to sensitive technology and strategic systems.

Follow @ETDefence Twitter handle for comprehensive coverage on other buzzing Defence stories

But a Navy plan for constructing six newnuclear-powered attack submarines (SSNs) to patrol the Indian Ocean Region (IOR) and beyond has prompted 'discussions' with the two western nations, sources familiar with the development told ET. The Cabinet Committee on Security had cleared Navy's proposal in February.

The Indian SSN project — expected to cost over Rs 1 lakh crore — is an ambitious plan to design and produce a nuclear attack boat with the help of the private sector. If this materialises, it will propel India into a select league of the five nuclear powers that have such a capability. SSNs are nuclear powered submarines, but do not carry nuclear warheads, relying instead on conventional weapons and stealth to hunt ships and other submarines. The last country to enter this club was China in 1974 with its Han class boats.

Sources told ET that senior representatives from the submarine branch of a leading US conglomerate have met key Indian defence ministry officials regarding the project. The efforts included a top level meeting in July. The discussions have been kept low key given the sensitivity of the project and details are not available.

Similarly, French representatives have also approached the Indian side for exploring avenues for cooperation on the project in the past few months. While the French submarine manufacturer has not commented on the project, the Indian side is interested in the new 'Barracuda' SSN being developed by French ship builder DCNS. A senior DCNS representative refused to take questions on the matter.

The new nuclear submarine for the French Navy is currently under construction and is expected to start sea trials by next year. The Barracuda was also showcased at the Defence Expo held in New Delhi last year. As reported by ET, India is also in talks with Russia to lease a nuclear attack submarine — a newly built, customised boat that could give engineers a first-hand look at construction technology and process.

Unlike a nuclear missile armed submarines (SSBN) that is designed to carry out a nuclear strike, nuclear propelled attack boats (SSNs) are considered less sensitive, with their primary role being hunting vital enemy naval ships and submarines. While foreign assistance on SSBNs is a complex matter, there have been examples of nations sharing non-nuclear technology for SSNs. France is at present assisting Brazil with its first nuclear submarine project. The deal involves France helping Brazil with the non-nuclear components of the submarine, with the South American nation using its own reactor and fuel.

India's first SSBN, the INS Arihant, is currently undergoing sea trials in Vizag. It is expected to carry out a weapons test shortly. The only SSN in service with the Navy at present is theINS Chakra, an Akula class submarine on a 10 year lease from Russia to train Indian crew for such operations.

 

[bengalraider]

Barracuda
Los Angeles

The Akulas just got some serious competition.

 

[salute]

I am starting this thread to discuss the Indian navy's ongoing project to develop a line of SSNs. I had speculated in the rafale thread about the possibility of the huge amount being paid for the rafale being a cover for SSN(barracuda) tech transfer, seems I may have been right after all. We might end up with a mix of barracudas and akulas guarding our shores.

http://m.economictimes.com/news/def...g-nuclear-submarines/articleshow/49131287.cms

India may get US, French cos as partners for building nuclear submarines
NEW DELHI: For the first time India has options when it comes to finding a partner to build a military nuclear asset. Besides Russia, ship builders from France and the US have started initial conversations with the defence ministry on participating in an Indian effort to build a new class of nuclear-powered attack submarines.

Russia has been the traditional ally of India when it comes to sensitive technology and strategic systems.

Follow @ETDefence Twitter handle for comprehensive coverage on other buzzing Defence stories

But a Navy plan for constructing six newnuclear-powered attack submarines (SSNs) to patrol the Indian Ocean Region (IOR) and beyond has prompted 'discussions' with the two western nations, sources familiar with the development told ET. The Cabinet Committee on Security had cleared Navy's proposal in February.

The Indian SSN project — expected to cost over Rs 1 lakh crore — is an ambitious plan to design and produce a nuclear attack boat with the help of the private sector. If this materialises, it will propel India into a select league of the five nuclear powers that have such a capability. SSNs are nuclear powered submarines, but do not carry nuclear warheads, relying instead on conventional weapons and stealth to hunt ships and other submarines. The last country to enter this club was China in 1974 with its Han class boats.

Sources told ET that senior representatives from the submarine branch of a leading US conglomerate have met key Indian defence ministry officials regarding the project. The efforts included a top level meeting in July. The discussions have been kept low key given the sensitivity of the project and details are not available.

Similarly, French representatives have also approached the Indian side for exploring avenues for cooperation on the project in the past few months. While the French submarine manufacturer has not commented on the project, the Indian side is interested in the new 'Barracuda' SSN being developed by French ship builder DCNS. A senior DCNS representative refused to take questions on the matter.

The new nuclear submarine for the French Navy is currently under construction and is expected to start sea trials by next year. The Barracuda was also showcased at the Defence Expo held in New Delhi last year. As reported by ET, India is also in talks with Russia to lease a nuclear attack submarine — a newly built, customised boat that could give engineers a first-hand look at construction technology and process.

Unlike a nuclear missile armed submarines (SSBN) that is designed to carry out a nuclear strike, nuclear propelled attack boats (SSNs) are considered less sensitive, with their primary role being hunting vital enemy naval ships and submarines. While foreign assistance on SSBNs is a complex matter, there have been examples of nations sharing non-nuclear technology for SSNs. France is at present assisting Brazil with its first nuclear submarine project. The deal involves France helping Brazil with the non-nuclear components of the submarine, with the South American nation using its own reactor and fuel.

India's first SSBN, the INS Arihant, is currently undergoing sea trials in Vizag. It is expected to carry out a weapons test shortly. The only SSN in service with the Navy at present is theINS Chakra, an Akula class submarine on a 10 year lease from Russia to train Indian crew for such operations.

india must go for french and american tech especially when it comes to ssn tech because russian ssn tech is not so reliable,

other thing is india not gonna be reliable on one country,

but most importantly india should excel in its own ssn tech.

 

[bengalraider]

We should look for the best of both worlds, get all the tech we want. Build a few SSNs in conjunction with both the west and the Russians to bolster numbers. Then only should we move to build our own design.

 

[warrior monk]

If India wants to ever take on Chinese SSNs and SSGNs Barracuda class is not it though Barracudas have SYCOBS (système de combat pour Barracuda et SSBN) the battle management system which is a class in itself rest all features is not sufficient to take on Chinese SSNs or SSGNs . The only option is Shchuka B class or Yasen class from Russia or Virginia class (USA). US will never offer us Virginia class so it is better if we work with the Russians.

Indian SSN's should have

1) submarine's SL spectrum relative to (1 Pa at 1m ) 1kHz at 110 to 100 db and at relative to (1 Pa at 1 m) >200Hz at 120 db at less than 6 knots .

2) Single reactor HEU PWR of atleast 90% enriched and above with 160 MWt which will give high energy density lower Transuranic production and better shaft to propeller power transference and must be rugged and resilient enough to withstand rigorous operations at sea, subject to a ship's pitching and rolling and rapidly-changing demands for power, possibly under battle conditions. The reactor should last 25 years atleast , Arihant uses 44 % HEU .

3)It should be single hulled as Russians have a habit of making twin hulled ones even Chinese copy them to reduce SL spectrum of the sub i think.

4) We can go for the tear drop model or anything hybrid .

5)The Sub should have ducted propeller to reduce hydrodynamic cavitation , Arihant already uses 7 blade highly skewed propeller which reduces SL level.

6)The submarine reactor should use natural circulation ( I know it is a tall order ) which can reduce the need of coolant pumps which is a significant cause of SL level especially at cruise speeds and preventing passive acoustic detection especially in the narrow band sources.

7) It should aim for thin bubble coating by using a bubble meta screen of silicone rubber we already use anechoic rubber tiles on Arihant class.

8)We should aim for electric-drive system instead of mechanical drive system which reduces SL level.

9) It should use low magnetic Special High Yield steel alloys like HY-156 which could operate at 650 mtrs or crush depth we already make HY 80 steel which has a yield stress of 80,000 psi .

10)Last but not least it should have both 533 mm torpedo and 650 mm torpedo bays .

Most of this is achievable by India but we need to work on 93 % HEU PWR reactor , no one except US uses such reactors.

 

[Screambowl]

3)It should be single hulled as Russians have a habit of making twin hulled ones even Chinese copy them to reduce SL spectrum of the sub i think.

But don't you think, single hull increases the risk of any kind of damage collision with any rock or etc or damage due to depth charges ?

 

[warrior monk]

But don't you think, single hull increases the risk of any kind of damage collision with any rock or etc or damage due to depth charges ?

Russians use twin hull to reduce acoustic signature as their submarine main machinery consists of two nuclear water reactors and two turbo gear assemblies of steam turbine and gearbox which drive 50,000hp steam turbines and four 3,200kW turbo generators as in the Yasen class which produces a lot of acoustic signature so twin hulled .
If India uses HY-156/157 low magnetic super steel alloys it will provide sufficient protection including operating at crush depth . Nothing will survive a depth charge not twin hulled or multiple hulled .
Chinese use twin hulled so do we Indians which shows our lack of sophistication in designing sub reactors and reduction in SL level , so we Indians and Chinese copy Russians.

 

[bengalraider]

And what makes you think the Russians will give us Yasen?

 

[Neeraj Mathur]

no one's gonna give us their best but they sure can help us in understanding some tech

 

[bengalraider]

Exactly we need to mix and match and get the best we can get, the rest we'll have to develop in house.
I'm guessing the assistance will be in line with that offered to Brazil. There DCNS is helping the Brazilian navy in every aspect other than the actual nuclear reactor.

 

[Bheeshma]

The article needs to be taken with a bag of salt. I don't see this happening.

 

[Zebra]

India may get US, French cos as partners for building nuclear submarines

If it is true, then indeed its a very good news.

Cancel Project - 75 (I) and make 6 +6 SSNs.

My two cents anyway.

 

[SajeevJino]

If it is true, then indeed its a very good news.

Cancel Project - 75 (I) and make 6 +6 SSNs.

My two cents anyway.

I think India should need some 12 SSK ..those are cost effective and replace older Kilo and HDW class

may be in future we can move on with more SSN's

 

[warrior monk]

And what makes you think the Russians will give us Yasen?

Well Russians will certainly not sell us Yasen class but they might lease us one and help us with certain technologies like helping us reduce submarine's SL spectrum relative to (1 Pa at 1m ) 1kHz at 110 or lower even french can also help us with that and with the SYCOBS battle management combat system which integrates active and passive sensors.
The problem with Barracuda class is that the submarine has four 533mm torpedo tubes and only carries 18 torpedoes which is low for a SSN especially if we are going to go up against Chinese type 095 SSNs . Russian subs carry two reactors and french carry one integrated both of them use LEU Uranium zircalloy fuel bundles though the french are claiming using same fuel as they use in civilian reactors which would be great but it requires refueling every ten years for both .
Barracuda is an excellent small sub compared to other SSNs with hybrid propulsion electric for normal use and pump-jet for cruising which is good for SSBN escort not a hot war sub like yasen class which carries a larger payload and can dive to greater depths and can be more devastating , India should work on larger , quieter and faster SSNs for a true blue water navy a hybrid between yasen and barracuda .

 

[bengalraider]

The way I see it is that the west will give us everything apart from the actual nuclear propulsion package. The Russians on the other hand will given us the best nuclear propulsion tech our money can buy.
What we need is a Yasen analogue with a Russian powerplant but western electronics, quite feasible I'd say.

 

[Adioz]

I think India should need some 12 SSK ..those are cost effective and replace older Kilo and HDW class

may be in future we can move on with more SSN's

An excellent point. Instead of trying to develop SSNs, we need to develop SSPs (not SSKs, we need air-independent propulsion).
But before we delve into the debate SSN vs SSK/SSP. We need to ask ourselves, what is the Indian Navy's requirement?
It is definitely a supposed counter to the massive Chinese submarine force and a deterrent to Pakistan. But if:-
It is supposed to be attached to the fleet: A SSK/SSP is a much cheaper alternative. It can surface frequently within the fleets protection and while submerged, can patrol the boundaries of the fleet's sphere of influence. However, its speed of 20 knots is a drag on the entire fleet, which has to move slower as a result.
A SSN, on the other hand, is excellent in this regard, albeit a little expensive (2-3 Billion $ ..........4X as expensive as a SSK/SSP).
It is supposed to undertake littoral warfare roles: An SSN is extremely vulnerable due to its massive displacement and lack of manuverability (as compared to a SSK/SSP).
A SSK/SSP is made for such an environment and can function much more efficiently than a SSN.

However, which littorals do we need our submarines in? On the western coast, we need them to counter Pakistani submarines. The eastern fleet needs them to patrol Malacca and intercept any Chinese submarine during wartime.

Hence a big SSK/SSP fleet is indispensable for the Indian Navy.
However, a few SSNs are still required to protect CVBGs, ARGs and SAGs on the high seas.
Indian option: We can develop them on our own but it will require a technology we do not yet completely possess.The US might help.
The Russian option is expensive (Yasen will cost us 2-3 Billion $), but we will get a no-strings attached and capable weapons platform (which might not feature all the accoustic reduction measures).
The US option might never materialize as the US will never go for TOT, or agree to share the reactor tech and acoustic signature reduction tech.
The British or the French might help us out.
In the end, we need SSK/SSPs in large numbers and a much smaller domestically manufactured (joint-development or TOT) SSN fleet.

 

[Zebra]

I think India should need some 12 SSK ..those are cost effective and replace older Kilo and HDW class

may be in future we can move on with more SSN's

Then type A26 will be best for 12 SSKs.

Cost effective and capable.
I guess.