India's 'lost tribe' dreams of return to Israel

[lemontree]

Just now finished watching "Raid on Entebbe." ...Awesome movie..

Hine Ma Tov Umanaim....

Is'nt this the hymn they (soldiers) sing during the flight?

 

[lemontree]

I just get frustrated with pro-Israel Indians sometimes because it honestly just doesn't make sense to me.

What makes sense to you?

 

[Son of Govinda]

What makes sense to you?

Former victims of colonialism advocating another peoples right to colonise an entire people... am I missing something?

Jews enjoy complete equality and freedom of religion in the US, which has more than enough room to host every last Israeli. I'm not against the Jews living in Israel as long as they purchase the land legally from rightful Palestinian land owners, and also accept collective ownership of Palestine with people of other faiths. The creation of the Jewish state is exactly the same thing as the creation of the British Raj.

 

[Ray]

The creation of Israel has a very interesting history.

It is not always legally correct and yet there are those who claim it is legal.

The interesting part is that the Arabs being nomadic had no legal documents to prove the land is theirs.. And I believe this is a point that the Israelis forward to state that the land does not belong to the Arabs. I read this in another forum, but I am not too sure of this issue.

A naughty knotty problem.

 

[Son of Govinda]

The creation of Israel has a very interesting history.

It is not always legally correct and yet there are those who claim it is legal.

The interesting part is that the Arabs being nomadic had no legal documents to prove the land is theirs.. And I believe this is a point that the Israelis forward to state that the land does not belong to the Arabs. I read this in another forum, but I am not too sure of this issue.

A naughty knotty problem.

The Arabs never really had a chance to prove their ownership because of Treaty of Sèvres. The Ottoman empire had to give up Palestine to England, which already had the aim of establishing Israel.

However, there are many Palestinians today with property rights that are recognized internationally as well as in Israel, and yet Israel will always turn a blind eye when a Jewish settler demolishes their home and builds over it. The idea is that if enough Jewish settlers occupy the West Bank quick enough, Israel can declare it a Jewish majority and annex it. It's English colonialism all over again.

Israel is violating international law as we speak by occupying east Jerusalem, and yet they are touted as being the only "democracy" in the mid east.

 

[The Messiah]

^ You do have a point.

But do remember in real life might is right and all the fancy words go out of the nearest window.

 

[lemontree]

Former victims of colonialism advocating another peoples right to colonise an entire people... am I missing something?

Jews enjoy complete equality and freedom of religion in the US, which has more than enough room to host every last Israeli. I'm not against the Jews living in Israel as long as they purchase the land legally from rightful Palestinian land owners, and also accept collective ownership of Palestine with people of other faiths. The creation of the Jewish state is exactly the same thing as the creation of the British Raj.

Its not as simple as that. Besides from your post it appears you have fragmented knowledge of issue.

I've read the entire Torah... I can't even begin to explain how messed up it is.

Give me any religious book and I'll show you how messed up it is.

Unlike us Indians who were forcibly oppressed on our land,

We went down like wimps. Please explain why our ancestors could not defend Somnath from muslim invades and it was sacked 13 times. I mean come on - 13 times is a limit.

the Jews have pissed off every empire and were oppressed for a reason. They aren't the quiet innocent religious community you think they are..

.
Please elaborate...how are jews so evil. Do you know about the contribution of Jews in India?

Just because Hitler had pride in his own race doesn't mean he hated every other race.

Hitler was just a die-hard nationalist that believed in a racial state where citizenship was based on blood instead of the current kinds of citizenship we have today.

You are so dumb. I'll have to start from the begining.

Please learn some history.... the Palestinians didn't even exist during 70 AD...

You are the one who needs to learn about history - Palestine as a territory was known since 5 Century BC.

the Jews rebelled against the Roman empire and put up defenses all over Judea so Rome had to fight for a few months before they finally broke through and destroyed the second temple. The Roman punishment for the rebellion was the occupation of Judea and the exile of the Jews.

The Romans were already ruling over Palestine since 63 BC.

The Jews don't have an ancestral homeland...

You need to read more...

Had the arab armies not decided to invade and wipe out the Jews in 1948, this problem would not have existed. The irony is that now the Palestinians have accepted the same UN resolution of 1948, that they are rejected.

 

[Son of Govinda]

Its not as simple as that. Besides from your post it appears you have fragmented knowledge of issue.

Self-Righteousness..... awesome.

Give me any religious book and I'll show you how messed up it is.

"It's not as simple as that."

We went down like wimps. Please explain why our ancestors could not defend Somnath from muslim invades and it was sacked 13 times. I mean come on - 13 times is a limit.
.
And that makes it right? The strong shall always dominate and conquer the weak? That's not an Indian ideal at all.

Please elaborate...how are jews so evil. Do you know about the contribution of Jews in India?

I didn't say Jews were evil.... I said Jews act parasitically.... They can do whatever the ---- they want to with their own religion.

You are so dumb. I'll have to start from the begining.

You completely misunderstood what I meant.... racial nationalism is NOT racism as you know it. Germany was an incredibly divided country during Hitler's
time and racial nationalism was a means of unifying the nation. Even during the first reich Germany was never unified like it was under Hitler.

You are the one who needs to learn about history - Palestine as a territory was known since 5 Century BC.

Try understanding what I'm actually talking about before telling me random nonsense I already learned in High school.

The Romans were already ruling over Palestine since 63 BC.

Once again more random nonsense.... I said rebellion as in.... Judea was already occupied and controlled by Rome.......


Had the arab armies not decided to invade and wipe out the Jews in 1948, this problem would not have existed. The irony is that now the Palestinians have accepted the same UN resolution of 1948, that they are rejected.

A clear violation of human rights and international law is.... well a clear violation of human rights and international law. None of your excuses can justify this.

The arabs were pissed because the Jews were going to control a sizeable portion of their religious holy land in an area that was dominated by Islam for centuries.
How would you feel if a bunch of Christians immigrated and occupied Varanasi while denying you entrance to it?

 

[Tolaha]

Unlike us Indians who were forcibly oppressed on our land, the Jews have pissed off every empire and were oppressed for a reason. They aren't the quiet innocent religious community you think they are...

Why on earth would Europe be jealous of Jews even with money? $ means nothing when you don't have a nation to spend it in..... it's just another common stereotype.

Most Indians who had settled in Burma during the times the British empire were 'money lenders' by profession. The opinion of Burmese about these Indians was not much different from what was thought about the Jews. They were despised and then hounded! Would you agree that it was a fair treatment?

I've read the entire Torah... I can't even begin to explain how messed up it is. You're just another victim of Zionist propaganda, I thought exactly like you do for most of my life.

Have you heard of those nutcases who think Bhagavad Gita espouses violence!

Why on earth would Europe be jealous of Jews even with money? $ means nothing when you don't have a nation to spend it in..... it's just another common stereotype.

I'd explain why Hitler said what he said, but I'd rather not have this post deleted as well. All I can say is you are miles off.

Btw just a fact: Only a small minority of Jews made it out of Poland/Russia to the west, those who weren't rich had to stay in the east. This created the stereotype of a wealthy Jewish banker because all Jewish immigrants to western Europe were bloody rich. The vast majority of Jews were incredibly poor as was the rest of Russia and Poland. Those so-called intellectual Jews you mention are the children of these rich Jews... these rich Jews had money to give their kids the best of everything including education, while most of the native population had to work to survive and couldn't afford to go to school.

Indians who had migrated and settled in Africa ended up being a rich community within a few generations. You know what Idi Amin did to all Indians and why some of his countrymen supported him in this? Racial stereotyping!

 

[Tolaha]

Son of Govinda,

Could you please quote properly and reply. Your last post doesn't make any sense because you have not made use of [ QUOTE ] and [ /QUOTE ] tags while replying to Lemontree's post.

 

[mikhail]

Even defense of the Jews falls into errors too numerous to point out.

mate can you point me what mistakes did i commit while writing my post:shocked:!whenever i see people thrashing the entire jewish community for no apparent reason,i tend to counter them by pointing out all the atrocities and heinous crime against the jewish people over the ages!i know most of
the members will criticise me for my views regarding the palestinians but the truth is their ancestors(who were known as cannites) invaded and conquered judea and drove away all the jews from their own homeland!so its only natural that after all these years when the jews became powerful they went and reclaimed what was truly theirs from the palestinians.

 

[Son of Govinda]

mate can you point me what mistakes did i commit while writing my post:shocked:!whenever i see people thrashing the entire jewish community for no apparent reason,i tend to counter them by pointing out all the atrocities and heinous crime against the jewish people over the ages!i know most of
the members will criticise me for my views regarding the palestinians but the truth is their ancestors(who were known as cannites) invaded and conquered judea and drove away all the jews from their own homeland!so its only natural that after all these years when the jews became powerful they went and reclaimed what was truly theirs from the palestinians.

Unfortunately you have it backwards my friend.

In the bible the Caananites always control Canaan, until Joshua leads the Jews back to Canaan after Egypt, and they are commanded by Joshua to exterminate the Caananites down to the last infant because they could grow up to threaten the Jewish people. Before this point in the bible there is no form of Jewish state or Jewish territory, so technically the Jews were the usurpers.

 

[KS]

Is'nt this the hymn they (soldiers) sing during the flight?

Yep....and also during the last scene when the C-130 arrives with the hostages..

 

[Mad Indian]

A clear violation of human rights and international law is.... well a clear violation of human rights and international law. None of your excuses can justify this.

The arabs were pissed because the Jews were going to control a sizeable portion of their religious holy land in an area that was dominated by Islam for centuries.
How would you feel if a bunch of Christians immigrated and occupied Varanasi while denying you entrance to it?

WTH man? Then what about Muslims conquering Jerusalem, which was a holy land of the Christians for so many centuries. Jerusalem is for Christians what Mecca is for Muslims. Now should the christians have to go berserk(again) demanding the return of their "holyland"?


I dont care what the Arab Wahabis think about this non-sense issue of "Holyland". As long as they are pissed, i will be more than happy to support Israel.

 

[Son of Govinda]

WTH man? Then what about Muslims conquering Jerusalem, which was a holy land of the Christians for so many centuries. Jerusalem is for Christians what Mecca is for Muslims. Now should the christians have to go berserk(again) demanding the return of their "holyland"?


I dont care what the Arab Wahabis think about this non-sense issue of "Holyland". As long as they are pissed, i will be more than happy to support Israel.

Muslims conquering Jerusalem was fine, Anyone who was a "person of the book"(Jews & Christians) was allowed to come to Jerusalem and visit the holy sites and even live in Jerusalem, they just had to pay an extra tax for being non-muslim and they couldn't join the military.

 

[lemontree]

A clear violation of human rights and international law is.... well a clear violation of human rights and international law. None of your excuses can justify this.

You are the one making excuses and justifying your anti-semitic views.
The arabs should have thought of human rights when their million strong army of three nations tried to wipe out the Israelis in 1948.

The arabs were pissed because the Jews were going to control a sizeable portion of their religious holy land in an area that was dominated by Islam for centuries.

The Arabs dont only mean muslim arabs. Arabs in Palestine also mean christian arabs.
Jerusalem is claimed by the Jews, Christians and the Muslims.

The domination of the Ottomans was an era of terror for the non-muslims, but they lost in 1918 - just too bad.

How would you feel if a bunch of Christians immigrated and occupied Varanasi while denying you entrance to it?

The comparison is flawed. As I said Jerusalem is claimed by jews, christians and the muslims, while Varanasi is only claimed by the hindus.

 

[lemontree]

Muslims conquering Jerusalem was fine,..

Really...then the Brits kicking out the Ottomans was also fine..as per your logic.

Anyone who was a "person of the book"(Jews & Christians) was allowed to come to Jerusalem and visit the holy sites and even live in Jerusalem, they just had to pay an extra tax for being non-muslim and they couldn't join the military.

Ah...so you are now justifying the jaziya tax!!
What if nations followed the same islamic logic..of religious tax. Imagine the second class status of the muslims...I'm sure that would not be acceptable to any muslim living in a non-muslim country.

BTW, you appear to be islamic findamentalist hiding behind a hindu nome de plume, the swastika and tricolour.

 

[parijataka]

Really...then the Brits kicking out the Ottomans was also fine..as per your logic.

Ah...so you are now justifying the jaziya tax!!
What if nations followed the same islamic logic..of religious tax. Imagine the second class status of the muslims...I'm sure that would not be acceptable to any muslim living in a non-muslim country.

BTW, you appear to be islamic findamentalist hiding behind a hindu nome de plume, the swastika and tricolour.

You hit the nail on the head Lemontree!

 

[Ray]

WTH man? Then what about Muslims conquering Jerusalem, which was a holy land of the Christians for so many centuries. Jerusalem is for Christians what Mecca is for Muslims. Now should the christians have to go berserk(again) demanding the return of their "holyland"?

According to the Arabic-literary sources, Muhammad in a.d. 622 fled his home town of Mecca for Medina, a city with a substantial Jewish population. On arrival in Medina, if not slightly earlier, the Qur'an adopted a number of practices friendly to Jews: a Yom Kippur-like fast, a synagogue-like place of prayer, permission to eat kosher food, and approval to marry Jewish women. Most important, the Qur'an repudiated the pre-Islamic practice of the Meccans to pray toward the Ka'ba, the small stone structure at the center of the main mosque in Mecca. Instead, it adopted the Judaic practice of facing the Temple Mount in Jerusalem during prayer. (Actually, the Qur'an only mentions the direction as "Syria"; other information makes it clear that Jerusalem is meant.)

This, the first qibla (direction of prayer) of Islam, did not last long. The Jews criticized the new faith and rejected the friendly Islamic gestures; not long after, the Qur'an broke with them, probably in early 624. The explanation of this change comes in a Qur'anic verse instructing the faithful no longer to pray toward Syria but instead toward Mecca. The passage (2:142-52) begins by anticipating questions about this abrupt change:

The Fools among the people will say: "What has turned them [the Muslims] from the qibla to which they were always used?"

God then provides the answer:

We appointed the qibla that to which you was used, only to test those who followed the Messenger [Muhammad] from those who would turn on their heels [on Islam].

In other words, the new qibla served as a way to distinguish Muslims from Jews. From now on, Mecca would be the direction of prayer:

now shall we turn you to a qibla that shall please you. Then turn your face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque [in Mecca]. Wherever you are, turn your faces in that direction.

The Qur'an then reiterates the point about no longer paying attention to Jews:

Even if you were to bring all the signs to the people of the Book [i.e., Jews], they would not follow your qibla.

Muslims subsequently accepted the point implicit to the Qur'anic explanation, that the adoption of Jerusalem as qibla was a tactical move to win Jewish converts. "He chose the Holy House in Jerusalem in order that the People of the Book [i.e., Jews] would be conciliated," notes At-Tabari, an early Muslim commentator on the Qur'an, "and the Jews were glad."7 Modern historians agree: W. Montgomery Watt, a leading biographer of Muhammad, interprets the prophet's "far-reaching concessions to Jewish feeling" in the light of two motives, one of which was "the desire for a reconciliation with the Jews."8

More at:

The Muslim Claim to Jerusalem :: Middle East Quarterly

 

[Son of Govinda]

Really...then the Brits kicking out the Ottomans was also fine..as per your logic.

Ah...so you are now justifying the jaziya tax!!
What if nations followed the same islamic logic..of religious tax. Imagine the second class status of the muslims...I'm sure that would not be acceptable to any muslim living in a non-muslim country.

BTW, you appear to be islamic findamentalist hiding behind a hindu nome de plume, the swastika and tricolour.

Jerusalem was being controlled by fundamentalist Christians who oppressed all Muslims and Jews when it was conquered by Islam so yeah it really was fine.

Paying a tax versus not paying it and dying in battle... hmm I wonder who really had to sacrifice to protect the abrahamic holy lands.

My code of ethnics is derived entirely from the Vedas, Govinda, and Siddharta Gautuma, and if Govinda were manifested on this earth today he would tell you himself what a sinner you are for advocating the oppression of others on the basis of ethnic/religious difference.

The swastika always has and always will represent the Indian spirit and culture. No other symbol has been spread to so many cultures within India, no other symbol has unified as has the Swastika.

Of course I use it in a non-religious way, so don't get it twisted.