India's growing stakes in South China Sea

[J20!]

j20 do you know anythinga bout brahmos. anything that plan will launch can be confronted with sams. but brahmos is one of the kind supersonic curise missile. nothing is there to confront it because its one of its kind. false ego you may withhold but a IN ship and PLAN ship 290 kms away heading towards eachother and launching respective missiles, plan antiship missile can be countered by sams with IN but supersonic cruise missile by in is not another antiship missile. plan ship will be destroyed.

Now this I like. Talking military capability instead of baseless claims.
1. Brahmos while very formidable, is not the miracle-missile you all hype it up to be. Yes agentperry, I do know about Brahmos. I know for instance that Brahmos is a modernised P800 Oniks antiship cruise missile. The Oniks being supersonic, gives the target ship very little time to respond once it comes over the horizon. So yes, the Russians let you modernise a cruise missile with them and suddenly its some alien technology that can't be countered? Get over yourself. In CHINESE waters, even if it was alien technology, you'd still have no chance.

if you have anything to counter it provide it HERE...

Sure thing.
The first counter to your "miracle missile" is our first true long range air defence destroyer, the 7000 ton type 052C:

It features an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar system with four statically-mounted antennas for 360-degree coverage. The radar is used in conjunction with vertically launched HHQ-9 long-range air defence missiles.

Second up to bat, is the type 054A air-defence frigate:

The Type 054A carries HQ-16 medium-range air defence missiles in a VLS system. The HQ-16 provides area air defence from all engagement angles up to a range of 50km.
Air defence missiles are faster and more agile than any anti-ship missile (well except OUR DF-21D ballistic anti-ship missile. And no we wont let you "modernise" it with us, lol!, OR buy it, which seems to be how the Indian millitary survives, buying and not developing indeginous solutions...), so yes, I'm sure PLAN leaders don't lose any sleep over your miracle missile.
Mind you we have 11 completed type 054A's and 3 under construction as well as 2 type 052C's with 4 newer variants under contruction. We are building a navy to counter the US NAVY in our backyard, not some tin pot Indian frigate equiped with mostly russian missiles and gadgets.
To counter the launch platform itself, the PLAN is equiped with various platforms. The most efficient counter to warships or submarines, are SUBMARINES, of which we have plenty.
There are the type 039 Song class subs, one of which famously surfaced in the middle of a US Navy CBG, of which we have 13 in active service. The Kilo class, of which the PLAN operates 12, and the brand new Yuan class of which there are 7, though it is unknown how many are planned or under construction. All the aforementioned subs carry torpedoes AND anti-ship cruise missiles (either the C803, and in the Kilo's case, the Klub), some even carry anti-sub missiles. Then there are the nuclear attack subs, the type 093 Shang class namely which carries the Yu-6 of Yu-7 and anti-ship missiles. Exactly how many PLAN operates is unknown (probably why they've built those underground sub bases on Hainan, to hide how many they actually have(good move by the way).

Then there are the stealth catamaran fast attack missile boats, the type 022 Houbei class, of which the PLAN operates over 83 at last count, which carry 8 c803 anti-ship missiles.

The only country with the pure power to outmuscle the PLAN in the SCS would be the US navy, and that's it. So claiming you could destroy us all with your "magic missile" Brahmos, is kinda silly brah...

Oh, I almost forgot the PLANAF with its Strike and anti-ship attacks carried out by the Q-5, JH-7, Su-30MKK and H-6, with J10's for air defence, but I'm sure you get the picture.

 

[agentperry]

brahmos is supersonic and not subsonic like tomahawk. your hq-16 needs up-gradation. talk to russia for it.

as if we dont know the extent of buying china do. the j series planes, are they all chinese handiwork. this hq-16, dubbed as copy of russian BAL. a coastal defence missile system.

BAIDU IT.

 

[J20!]

brahmos is supersonic and not subsonic like tomahawk. your hq-16 needs up-gradation. talk to russia for it..

Tomahawk is a LACM genius, how does it factor into Brahmos. Well I know Brahmos can also be used in land attacks but in that cas the tactical tomahawk is superior in every way except speed, which really doesn't matter in a long range cruise missile attack against targets that are not time sensitive.

"HQ-16 is enough to deal with any anti-ship cruise missile, and since no one else has anti-ship ballistic missiles, i'll say we're safe from any Indian mirracle missiles."

as if we dont know the extent of buying china do. the j series planes, are they all chinese handiwork. this hq-16, dubbed as copy of russian BAL. a coastal defence missile system.

BAIDU IT.

For a country that is almost completely dependent on foreign countries for the development of weapons and other engineering feats, it takes a tremendous ego to critisize China's weapons manufacturing industry, which is mostly self-reliant. Even your "indegenous" systems are mostly foreign.
Provide evidence that the "j series planes" are not chinese handiwork, because I don't remember us running an MMRCA for ten years and counting like some country I know. We build our own ish brah!

 

[J20!]

Great you have answered all your queries yourself......you have a good sense of being guilty conscious. As per next confrontation with China let me tell you one thing for sure that - The Jackass traitor Nehru your ally is long dead for good, we do not believe that Chinese are our-brothers, we will not restrict ourselves at defending posts and pickets will use everything we have, and will not allow any self styled Nehru to remain alive if he/she messes with armed forces; moreover, this time AF will be used extensively....Now you can imagine how good your PLA will fare against us (If Indian forces are given free hand) as compared to Vietnam which went all out against PLA. I leave it to your imagination the rout PLA will face in the absence of traitor Nehru and ilks.

I wont b drawn into some baseless "we gonna rout the PLA" argument with you since you don't seem to be basing your argument on millitary capability, but sure, go ahead, provoke China again, it might not be as embarrassing an ass-kicking as it was in 1962.

But then it seems your own Prime Minister doesn't agree with you:

[h=2]

Militarily, China far ahead than India: Manmohan Singh[/h]

New Delhi, June 29 (IANS) Prime Minister Manmhohan Singh Wednesday said China was 'far ahead' in its military strength but India was catching up with its limited resources.

'The Chinese are far ahead of us. They are building a blue water navy also. Aircraft carriers - they are acquiring,' Manmohan Singh in an interaction with a group of editors here.

He was asked about India's defence preparedness in the light of Chinese capabilities to which he replied the nation was modernising its armed forces.

'We have started the process. We are looking at the modernization of our armed forces, including the navy and the air force. For the first time in many many years, we have added two divisions to our army,' he said.

'So within the limits of our resources, - we are doing - much advanced air fields in the border areas. We are trying to strengthen the border roads. Also to see, that states on our border - our villagers have access to electricity using solar power. The effort is on,' said the prime minister.

He admitted that the defence expenditure as a percentage of the GDP has been falling from year to year.

'That is true. But quite frankly we have not restricted defence spending. No conscious decision has been taken to any fixed percentage. We are as a nation, prepared to live with a defence expenditure equal to three percent of our GDP.

'If the armed forces have a plan to raise their expenditure to that ceiling, the system will be able to tolerate it.'

After pakistan now it is India's turn to accept ground reality​

 

[agentperry]

Tomahawk is a LACM genius, how does it factor into Brahmos. Well I know Brahmos can also be used in land attacks but in that cas the tactical tomahawk is superior in every way except speed, which really doesn't matter in a long range cruise missile attack against targets that are not time sensitive.

"HQ-16 is enough to deal with any anti-ship cruise missile, and since no one else has anti-ship ballistic missiles, i'll say we're safe from any Indian mirracle missiles."



For a country that is almost completely dependent on foreign countries for the development of weapons and other engineering feats, it takes a tremendous ego to critisize China's weapons manufacturing industry, which is mostly self-reliant. Even your "indegenous" systems are mostly foreign.
Provide evidence that the "j series planes" are not chinese handiwork, because I don't remember us running an MMRCA for ten years and counting like some country I know. We build our own ish brah!

self-reliant in manufacturing and not in developing. your industry is yet to develop something which you can display as your own. if india acknowledge the foreign contribution then their is nothing wrong in it. china should also recognize the french help for giving out helis, russians for planes and engines, the 50 era soviet design of submarine which china is now reproducing at large scale. i don rule out the chinese contribution in further developing the weaponry and making higher end weapons but still it needs to go a long way to call itself next usa.

moreover the hq16 capability to intercept tomahawk---statement was given by pla genius not me.

 

[agentperry]

moreover.. goodmorning if you missed the era of development of brahmos this russian missile is now lacm too. russian just rubbed the lamp and ginnie converted brahmos AShM into LACM.

 

[J20!]

self-reliant in manufacturing and not in developing. your industry is yet to develop something which you can display as your own. if india acknowledge the foreign contribution then their is nothing wrong in it. china should also recognize the french help for giving out helis, russians for planes and engines, the 50 era soviet design of submarine which china is now reproducing at large scale. i don rule out the chinese contribution in further developing the weaponry and making higher end weapons but still it needs to go a long way to call itself next usa.

moreover the hq16 capability to intercept tomahawk---statement was given by pla genius not me.

I remember now, there WAS a competition to supply the PLAAF with the J20 and the J10B developed itself completely. No my Indian brother, deny it all you want, but China IS self reliant, sure we're one of the best copycats in the world, but we don't sit there and piggy back on other countries like you with Brahmos, Barak, MMRCA, Vikramaditya, the Poseidon etc. The only difference between you and Pakistan is that you HAVE the money to be the world's biggest importer of weapons, they can't build anything themselves either.

The J15, is not russian. Yes its a copy of the Su33 but it was developed based on the Su33 with CHINESE technology, with no russian help whatsoever, we took some old prototype and modernised it completely with our own engines and radars and avionics and composite materials. I bet India couldn't do even THAT without asking for help from someone, but then you don't have an indegenous radar, do you? I'm not sure.Not even an old Pulse Doppler? The type 052C IS indegenous, its radars are a 100%CHINESE, its not made in Russia like your Talwar frigates, its not an "indegenous" Arjun, or a Tejas, in that WE DIDI IT OURSELVES.

As to your babbling about the tac tom, I just don't care anymore, I've explained its not an AshM, its an LACM, they tried to make an anti-ship version but that didn't work out too well.

 

[maomao]

I wont b drawn into some baseless "we gonna rout the PLA" argument with you since you don't seem to be basing your argument on millitary capability, but sure, go ahead, provoke China again, it might not be as embarrassing an ass-kicking as it was in 1962.

But then it seems your own Prime Minister doesn't agree with you:

[h=2]

Militarily, China far ahead than India: Manmohan Singh[/h]

New Delhi, June 29 (IANS) Prime Minister Manmhohan Singh Wednesday said China was 'far ahead' in its military strength but India was catching up with its limited resources.

'The Chinese are far ahead of us. They are building a blue water navy also. Aircraft carriers - they are acquiring,' Manmohan Singh in an interaction with a group of editors here.

He was asked about India's defence preparedness in the light of Chinese capabilities to which he replied the nation was modernising its armed forces.

'We have started the process. We are looking at the modernization of our armed forces, including the navy and the air force. For the first time in many many years, we have added two divisions to our army,' he said.

'So within the limits of our resources, - we are doing - much advanced air fields in the border areas. We are trying to strengthen the border roads. Also to see, that states on our border - our villagers have access to electricity using solar power. The effort is on,' said the prime minister.

He admitted that the defence expenditure as a percentage of the GDP has been falling from year to year.

'That is true. But quite frankly we have not restricted defence spending. No conscious decision has been taken to any fixed percentage. We are as a nation, prepared to live with a defence expenditure equal to three percent of our GDP.

'If the armed forces have a plan to raise their expenditure to that ceiling, the system will be able to tolerate it.'

After pakistan now it is India's turn to accept ground reality​

Yes our PM is very modest, if he gave out such a statement then I would congratulate him for the 1st time for giving out a well balanced/modest statement. We all know where China stands in quality of weapons and where we stand and what weapons we are acquiring, that's no secret to you too being a Chinese. As per numbers we are not far behind and can raise numerous divisions at any given time, that's no secret to us! You missed out on the most important sections of his statements i.e.......

'We have started the process. We are looking at the modernization of our armed forces, including the navy and the air force. For the first time in many many years, we have added two divisions to our army' (The process actually started after 1962 and more so accelerated after 1990s - Nathula Victory and Chola Success are direct result of such a process )

'So within the limits of our resources, - we are doing - much advanced air fields in the border areas. We are trying to strengthen the border roads. Also to see, that states on our border - our villagers have access to electricity using solar power. The effort is on. (Fortification of Tawang and PLA sitting like a peking duck is one such instance to be inferred from this statement)

These are called well balanced comments......being politically and diplomatically correct....he has exactly said what I had mentioned earlier - in a subtle mocking manner! Very balanced statement by the PM clearly revealing the intent.

P.S: You Chinese with ever growing aggression and hunger for power/land/resources have sunk all the tacts of diplomacy in South China Sea and India on the other hand learns from its Past in newer sophisticated ways!

 

[agentperry]

I remember now, there WAS a competition to supply the PLAAF with the J20 and the J10B developed itself completely. No my Indian brother, deny it all you want, but China IS self reliant, sure we're one of the best copycats in the world, but we don't sit there and piggy back on other countries like you with Brahmos, Barak, MMRCA, Vikramaditya, the Poseidon etc. The only difference between you and Pakistan is that you HAVE the money to be the world's biggest importer of weapons, they can't build anything themselves either.

The J15, is not russian. Yes its a copy of the Su33 but it was developed based on the Su33 with CHINESE technology, with no russian help whatsoever, we took some old prototype and modernised it completely with our own engines and radars and avionics and composite materials. I bet India couldn't do even THAT without asking for help from someone, but then you don't have an indegenous radar, do you? I'm not sure.Not even an old Pulse Doppler? The type 052C IS indegenous, its radars are a 100%CHINESE, its not made in Russia like your Talwar frigates, its not an "indegenous" Arjun, or a Tejas, in that WE DIDI IT OURSELVES.

As to your babbling about the tac tom, I just don't care anymore, I've explained its not an AshM, its an LACM, they tried to make an anti-ship version but that didn't work out too well.

when you are talking about type 52c then talk about the shivalik class or kolkatta class. ok your engine for planes- then why the hell china si running after russia for new engines because they failed like kaveri itself. im not interested in endless fight. j20, ok its a good step forward like it was j-11. j-10, a rip off of lavi.
buying designs and blueprints off the shelf and then modernizing them with home grown tech is somewhat similar to buying original stuff with full guarantee and then putting home grown stuff like mig-27, jaguar and su-30 mki stuff.

su-30 mki too got Indian name like other planes( jaguar is called shamsher) so what should i call it Indian plane. but in china it is called home grown.
where are the comparative trials of the chinese weapons. just firing them and showing videos made from behind the bushes- it does not make a weapon combat worthy. why china is not coming out clean over its weapons. it buys hell lots of high end weapons from israel and russia every year followed by imports from france.

what china achieved by domestically producing( thru license or buying the designs) is what india tries to replicate by developing dhruv and arjun mrk2. this will bring down imports and we can also say that india is now self reliant.

not importing and really a tech masters are two diff things.

you copied ok fine a good strategy but short terme.

j20 still needs to come out and prove itself. a flying prototype is not what you send in warzone. j-10b, engines?

 

[J20!]

when you are talking about type 52c then talk about the shivalik class or kolkatta class. ok your engine for planes- then why the hell china si running after russia for new engines because they failed like kaveri itself. im not interested in endless fight. j20, ok its a good step forward like it was j-11. j-10, a rip off of lavi.
buying designs and blueprints off the shelf and then modernizing them with home grown tech is somewhat similar to buying original stuff with full guarantee and then putting home grown stuff like mig-27, jaguar and su-30 mki stuff.

su-30 mki too got Indian name like other planes( jaguar is called shamsher) so what should i call it Indian plane. but in china it is called home grown.
where are the comparative trials of the chinese weapons. just firing them and showing videos made from behind the bushes- it does not make a weapon combat worthy. why china is not coming out clean over its weapons. it buys hell lots of high end weapons from israel and russia every year followed by imports from france.

what china achieved by domestically producing( thru license or buying the designs) is what india tries to replicate by developing dhruv and arjun mrk2. this will bring down imports and we can also say that india is now self reliant.

not importing and really a tech masters are two diff things.

you copied ok fine a good strategy but short terme.

j20 still needs to come out and prove itself. a flying prototype is not what you send in warzone. j-10b, engines?

I'm happy my government keeps things like weapons of war secret. Why should they announce them? So fanboys like you can discuss them on forums? Every weapons system in operation today was a prototype at one point genius. How do you think the Su30 you're on about BECAME operational? Through testing and development, something India probably you probably know nothing about since you seem to buy EVERYTHING, even small things you could boost your economy by developing indegenously.
Prove that the J10 is a lavi... Do you have any documentation. It was in development for over 15 years, so I dont see how it would take 15 years to "rip-off" something. Face it, we export weapons, you import EVERYTHING. Okay maybe I'm being harsh, not everything, atleast you developed, with help naturally, the Druhv

 

[agentperry]

I'm happy my government keeps things like weapons of war secret. Why should they announce them? So fanboys like you can discuss them on forums? Every weapons system in operation today was a prototype at one point genius. How do you think the Su30 you're on about BECAME operational? Through testing and development, something India probably you probably know nothing about since you seem to buy EVERYTHING, even small things you could boost your economy by developing indegenously.
Prove that the J10 is a lavi... Do you have any documentation. It was in development for over 15 years, so I dont see how it would take 15 years to "rip-off" something. Face it, we export weapons, you import EVERYTHING. Okay maybe I'm being harsh, not everything, atleast you developed, with help naturally, the Druhv

you export to those who are not fed by anyone. the rejected dejected piece of land like paksitan and uganda/sudan wateva. yes we import because there is no advertising agency for it in India. world is big enough to sell garbage and rise of chinese brands( barring some of course i like lenovo) is ample proof of it.
india spend twice the time on tejas than china spent on lavi err j-10. so is this good enough proof for calling everything on board tejas indigenous. no. same with j-10.
no doubt china moved ahead in case of avionics and other electronics but see the airframe. lavi=j-10. there are improvement in j-10 in form of j-10b. just like nasher is different from mirage 3/5.

no matter tomorrow china launches its aircraft carrier and you comes here saying/telling about the uniquness and innovation of chinese naval designers and claim it is not a rip off of varyag. rip-off is a bit non sense word because no one actually copy as it is. they surely add value to it.

if you dont know there are 1000 drdo developed projects into services. if tanks and tejas are facing delays then its because of the improvement adding into it. keeping china in mind. what you call the rapid development shown by india in armament sector. like now we have our own destroyer and frigates and yes nuke subs for deployment. just now we started the engine development for su-30 mki. china did same but it is still importing engines.
is anyone bashing china for failure. no. we know how things work and what it takes to develop and not copy

 

[Ray]

Prove that the J10 is a lavi... Do you have any documentation. It was in development for over 15 years, so I dont see how it would take 15 years to "rip-off" something. Face it, we export weapons, you import EVERYTHING. Okay maybe I'm being harsh, not everything, atleast you developed, with help naturally, the Druhv

\

I, for one, am glad that we are not called thieves!

 

[agentperry]

India is domestically making weapon like china in our factories like HAL and other weapon makers. you take( either buy blueprint or snatch) the weapon platform and then make it in domestic manufacturing facilities and on the other hand India buys the license to manufacture them at home.

common project is su-30. in case of su-27 and su-33, china just bought the designs. its no home R&D. you still source the engines and other stuff from them.

in case of missiles ok, i agree china have bigger arsenal. but again if we come back to normal stuffs like ships and planes. both are doin same thing but in different ways and with different names.

by your logic the engines made in hal facility for honeywell should be considered home project.

beml bought tatra designs and is making its within India. giving it Indian name will make it Indian thing and by your logic India will become self-reliant in weapon making.

 

[Yusuf]

I will not appreciate any flames here. No one replies to the troll.

 

[J20!]

mod edit: i know my job.

 

[agentperry]

"I will not appreciate any flames here. No one replies to the troll."Hey, I'm not the one putting out baseless claims like 90% of Chinese weapons don't work.. All that I've posted is FACT, not hype. Don't be biased because I'm not Indian. I said: Tell me how India will challenge the PLAN in the SCS. Don't call me a TROLL because your countrymen cannot and are resorting to baseless insults.

look neither its coldwar era nor india is any of the two-ussr and usa. India wont be fighting china straight. it restrict the options. the best way to fight is to make others' fight your war.( pak on china's behalf).

when it comes to scs. if India gets a chance to drill- best option but if it restricts china from drilling then its even better. the best option is to make vietnam assert its claim till centuries to come.

the main aim is to make china restricted within SEA region. more regional tension more usa and west interference who are ideological enemy of china and wont stop until either of them gets annihilated. this means more chinese troop deployment within china and near SEA region. this will be a circular response system. more chinese means more SEA troopers in the region just to balance.

effect- India gets more time and space to deal with pakistan and other issues as pre-occupied china will be more tensed and internalized.

 

[J20!]

You know what, I thought this was an INTERNATIONAL forum to discuss world issues... Now I see its just a place to insult China and not discuss FACTS, and not to give its citizens the chance to counter with facts. If its a flame war, there are two sides and you are just protecting ADUX. No, you dont know your job. I'M OUT!

 

[agentperry]

You know what, I thought this was an INTERNATIONAL forum to discuss world issues... Now I see its just a place to insult China and not discuss FACTS, and not to give its citizens the chance to counter with facts. If its a flame war, there are two sides and you are just protecting ADUX. No, you dont know your job. I'M OUT!

i gave you whole damn strategy and still u claim that im not siding by facts. what i said is wrong. isnt china producing j series plane via license from russia. isnt china importing engines from russia. isnt china relying on france for helicopters. where i went wrong.

 

[J20!]

"i gave you whole damn strategy and still u claim that im not siding by facts. what i said is wrong. isnt china producing j series plane via license from russia. isnt china importing engines from russia. isnt china relying on france for helicopters. where i went wrong."What strategy? All you've said is Brahmos is going to sink PLAN ships from 290km away and that's it. You haven't said how you will counter the over 60 ssk's and ssn's in the PLAN inventory. All you've said is something about tactom and j10 being a lavi and all j series being russian( you do realise that the j10 and j20 are included in the j-series). I've asked you to prove j10's a lavi and all you said was J10=lavi. Now explain your counter to the PLAN's subs and destroyers and frigates and the PLANAF anti-ship strikes. And so its not deemed a flame war, I'll extend an olive branch: Let's be civil. Agreed? One more thing: chelsea 3-5 ARSENAL! YEEEEEAH!