India's Godrej group to invest in Pakistan by year-end

[ajtr]

Pakistan is a good example of blind nationalism as far as India is concerned. Just to fight India, they are now in this mess. Their politicians and generals took advantage of this. They lost so much while India got ahead. Why Indians don't learn "WHAT NOT TO DO" from Pakistan.

Our economy is our best weapon, not Arihant, Vikramaditya, Agni, Nukes or anything. They will be useful in war time while economy is always useful both in peace and war time.

In the same breath i would say Pakistan is an easy boogeyman/punching bag for indians too.Blind nationalism flows both way across wagha.And even indian rulers take advantage of this.

 

[Agnostic Muslim]

Pakistan is an ideological state. For everlasting peace, that ideology must be taken apart.

Economic prosperity will just make them bolder.

Ideology, like culture, cannot be taken apart, it can only change as it evolves, and the process of evolution can be encouraged through more contact with outside cultures, ideas, ideology etc.

 

[LurkerBaba]

Ideology, like culture, cannot be taken apart, it can only change as it evolves, and the process of evolution can be encouraged through more contact with outside cultures, ideas, ideology etc.

Actually, you're stating the same thing. Ideology has to be countered and subverted over a long period of time.

 

[Jim Street]

Pakistan is an ideological state. For everlasting peace, that ideology must be taken apart.

Economic prosperity will just make them bolder.

Economic prosperity also brings education and literacy, more rationality and more far-sightedness. When people no longer worry about their survival, their mind look for better ways. Its easy to recruit an unemployed poor and uneducated youth to be brainwashed and turned into terrorist to fight for money that his family will receive if he blows up a building or 72 virgins in heaven.

Look at economic distribution of extremist affected region. You will get my point.

 

[Jim Street]

Actually, you're stating the same thing. Ideology has to be countered and subverted over a long period of time.

What he is talking about is evolution of ideology to more peaceful, rational and peace oriented ways. It doesn't mean replacing it, just removing cancerous part and attaching healthy one.

 

[Apollyon]

In the same breath i would say Pakistan is an easy boogeyman/punching bag for indians too.Blind nationalism flows both way across wagha.And even indian rulers take advantage of this.

But Indian Generals don't make statements like "we can launch a nuclear strike on Pakistan within 8 seconds" (although this doesn't make sense, realistically speaking)

 

[Iamanidiot]

Economic prosperity also brings education and literacy, more rationality and more far-sightedness. When people no longer worry about their survival, their mind look for better ways. Its easy to recruit an unemployed poor and uneducated youth to be brainwashed and turned into terrorist to fight for money that his family will receive if he blows up a building or 72 virgins in heaven.

Look at economic distribution of extremist affected region. You will get my point.

You are mistaken look at KSA and IRAN as nutty as ever infact even more nutcasery than ever before.Economic prosperity brings tools in the hands of nutcases to do havoc.Be rational and intelligent sir Pakistan has shown no intrest in dismantling the Haqqani network on U.S instance.A country which provides aid on which Pakistan survives and you are expecting Pakistan to dance to our tunes

 

[Iamanidiot]

Why should india worry about haqqani network.its usa's headache to deal with haqqanis.

We have Jamaat us dawa and ISI to worry about.

 

[Iamanidiot]

Jim Street please do not do WKK arguments like economic empowerment will rationalise them.It simply is not hapoening

 

[Jim Street]

You are mistaken look at KSA and IRAN as nutty as ever infact even more nutcasery than ever before.Economic prosperity brings tools in the hands of nutcases to do havoc.Be rational and intelligent sir Pakistan has shown no intrest in dismantling the Haqqani network on U.S instance.A country which provides aid on which Pakistan survives and you are expecting Pakistan to dance to our tunes

Now you are getting confused, you should have quoted the pother post of mine. Does it matter if KSA and Iran is considered as nutcase as long as they provide us fuel. KSA going to invest hundreds of billions of dollar or Iran providing access to Afghanistan.

KSA has changed its approach, they are now focusing on acquiring technology and raising domestic R&D facilities. Iran is now on path of technological development. If religion is the case, KSA who s against Iran, would never have relations with Iran or Iran having our relations with KSA.

I always say, in International policy there is nothing called friend and foe, just our national interests to be safeguarded.

I ask you to open a separate thread for this discussion.

 

[Iamanidiot]

Now you are getting confused, you should have quoted the pother post of mine. Does it matter if KSA and Iran is considered as nutcase as long as they provide us fuel. KSA going to invest hundreds of billions of dollar or Iran providing access to Afghanistan.

KSA has changed its approach, they are now focusing on acquiring technology and raising domestic R&D facilities. Iran is now on path of technological development. If religion is the case, KSA who s against Iran, would never have relations with Iran or Iran having our relations with KSA.

I always say, in International policy there is nothing called friend and foe, just our national interests to be safeguarded.

I ask you to open a separate thread for this discussion.

Then let us excuse about KSA and Iran.Lets come to Pakistan US aide to Pakistan has not stopped Pakistan from aiding the Haqqani network or giving refuge to Osama bin Laden .How do U expect it to dance to Indias tunes with the help of economic empowerment and trade.Yours is a bad proposition sir

 

[Agnostic Muslim]

Actually, you're stating the same thing. Ideology has to be countered and subverted over a long period of time.

You can't subvert it, people have to be willing to change, and I would not call this 'subversion', it is a natural process and humanity has been going through this throughout history, India included.

The argument that 'social, cultural, ideological change through exposure to external influences is subversion' is in fact an argument that many extremists and ideologues will raise - for example, 'our social and cultural values are being subverted through Western influences' etc. etc.

 

[LurkerBaba]

Ideology, like culture, cannot be taken apart, it can only change as it evolves, and the process of evolution can be encouraged through more contact with outside cultures, ideas, ideology etc.

You can't subvert it, people have to be willing to change, and I would not call this 'subversion', it is a natural process and humanity has been going through this throughout history, India included.

"contact with outside cultures" is simply a euphemism for subversion (which sounds malicious).

Destruction of Communism wasn't exactly a natural process

 

[Agnostic Muslim]

But Indian Generals don't make statements like "we can launch a nuclear strike on Pakistan within 8 seconds" (although this doesn't make sense, realistically speaking)

Pakistan does not have multiple 'four star generals' at any one time either, as the source of that quote claimed ...

 

[Jim Street]

Then let us excuse about KSA and Iran.Lets come to Pakistan US aide to Pakistan has not stopped Pakistan from aiding the Haqqani network or giving refuge to Osama bin Laden .How do U expect it to dance to Indias tunes with the help of economic empowerment and trade.Yours is a bad proposition sir

Do you really think US wanted to kill OBL in retaliation to 9/11 and go back to home and having decafe coffee. WoT was the name given to go back in Afghanistan, now for Iraq and China instead of USSR this time.

Do you really think Pakistan will dance to US tunes all the way, risking numerous anti-US terrorist groups striking inside Pakistan . That means dozens of TTP like organization. Giving Indian intelligence agencies to use them against Pakistan. Isn't Mehran and Kamra attack not enough, there would have been many folds attack like these, more suicide bombs, which is already in rise. Situation in many parts of Pakistan is getting worse than India had in Kashmir.

US did force Pakistan to WoT, but it costs billions to Pakistan itself. US is giving aide just for name sake. Even if they don't give, they have other measures to make Pakistan being ally on WoT.

Pakistan helps Haqqanis, fine, but don't US violates its sovereignty but drone strikes. What would happen if Pakistan stop supporting Haqqanis, they will turn against Pakistan. Do you remember, when a leader of anti-India terrorist organization said that if Pakistan makes peace with India, they will start targeting Pakistan rather than insurgency in Kashmir.

You need to understand, they are in position of ek taraf kua duusri taraf Khai.....Even when Pakistan gave India MFN status, Indian govt. allowed their banks to set up in India, we still managed to stop funding of WB and ADB on various important projects of Pakistan.

You can continue to increase economic ties as well as work against them economically. It all depends on how you milk the opportunity.

 

[Agnostic Muslim]

"contact with outside cultures" is simply a euphemism for subversion (which sounds malicious).

Why is it subversion rather than people adopting different practices and/or beliefs that they prefer?

Destruction of Communism wasn't exactly a natural process

Where it involved military force, it was not, but the destruction of the ideology was a natural process - the ideology simply could not win against the free market and individual freedom. The Chinese communists have lasted this long because they learned from the Soviet disaster and adapted to provide their citizenry with the 'fruits' of the free market, consumerism etc.

Of course in the long run, when economic growth slows down and/or stagnates and the middle class starts feeling the pinch and finds out that the high expectations it was accustomed to no longer are as easily available, China's communists will come under pressure to reform as well. If they are smart, they are already putting in place some sort of a transition plan - a gradual devolution of powers to more and more 'representative institutions', which will be the pressure valve to prevent the system from blowing up suddenly and completely ala USSR, Libya, Egypt etc.

 

[Jim Street]

Jim Street please do not do WKK arguments like economic empowerment will rationalise them.It simply is not hapoening

OMG.....WKK ..again........Indian Foreign Policy doesn't work on what you and me wish, especially don't care if they are called WKK. Make arguments which will lead to better discussion rather than using "WKK" to answer for sake of answering.

 

[Jim Street]

^ May be one day you will ask for ethnic cleansing of ever growing Muslims in India and other parts of the world.:thumb:

Why stop at Pakistan, all Islamic states should be divided.

BTW Pakistan as a symbol for separate state for Islam stop being a symbol after 1971 and current turmoil in Pakistan. I think Iran should be your aim, going against entire west and Zionists, becoming role model for every Islamic state that emerges according to you.

 

[chase]

^ May be one day you will ask for ethnic cleansing of ever growing Muslims in India and other parts of the world.:thumb:

Why stop at Pakistan, all Islamic states should be divided.

BTW Pakistan as a symbol for separate state for Islam stop being a symbol after 1971 and current turmoil in Pakistan. I think Iran should be your aim, going against entire west and Zionists, becoming role model for every Islamic state that emerges according to you.

Mind you,but muslims aren't a race.There are european muslims,american muslims,indian muslims,chinese muslims etc.One thing which they have in common is Islam. An ethnic cleansing doesn't come into account here.
There goes a saying that "There's no moderate Islam,there's moderate muslims" . Muslims may be as good a people as you or me but it is Islam ,a fascist ideology which defines them and makes them who they are.

Now lets analyze the definition of fascism:
"Fascism is a radical authoritarian nationalist political ideology.Fascists seek elevation of their nation based on commitment to an organic national community where its individuals are united together as one people in national identity. They are united by suprapersonal connections of ancestry and culture through a totalitarian state that seeks the mass mobilization of a nation through discipline, indoctrination, physical training, and eugenics.[3][4] Fascism seeks to eradicate perceived foreign influences that are deemed to be causing degeneration of the nation or of not fitting into the national culture"

Tada! sounds familiar?

Islams just aims what fascism does.It is a weltanschauung ,it defines how you view the world,has a complete law system of shariah which defines how you walk,wear,drink,etc.Aims to create a global Islamic ulema.

Now by taking the gratitude of being called an Islamophobe i will go on and say that Islam is not different from Hitler's National Socialism.Both are extremist radical ideologies which aims to create an overturn of the complete world order.

So here we have a ideology called Islam which doesn't fit into any definition of a modern secular democratic society and you think killing some millions of its followers can ever be the solution? Ideas never die.

 

[chase]

@LukerBaba

Don't try to curb the freedom of expression in this world which is already extremely hostile to any criticism of Islam.
Any talk about a muslim nation cannot be complete without bringing Islam in.