India's Future Main Battle Tank, NGMBT

[san]

Lighter than T72:funny_2: More capable than Arjun.
All is set to kill Arjun forever. RIP to Arjun

 

[sayareakd]

Lighter than T72:funny_2: More capable than Arjun.
All is set to kill Arjun forever. RIP to Arjun

they forget to add FMBT should fly and supercruise. :emot0:

 

[Logan]

No these are not mine but a close friend of mine..
Those are TAR-21s, I never saw zittara though i heard it will have some minor changes in looks..

I do not think Zittara ever went into mass production after the carbine procurement scam.

 

[wild goose]

Indian MoD Reports Steps Toward New Tank


NEW DELHI - Requirements for the Indian Army's Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) have been finalized, the Defence Ministry here announced Dec. 6, and the tank will be developed by the government's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) by 2020.

The Army has completed its Preliminary Staff Qualitative Requirement for the tank, according to the ministry's official statement. The DRDO is carrying out FMBT feasibility studies. Defence Minister A.K. Antony told the Indian parliament of these developments Dec. 6, the statement said.


Sources in the Indian Army said the proposed tank will be in the 40-metric-tons category and will be mounted with a 125mm gun. Six prototypes will be developed by 2020 before the FMBT enters bulk production.

The tank will be difficult to detect by enemy radar, according to the Army's requirements.

Other advanced features will include capability to fire kinetic weapons and missiles, an active protection system, and hybrid armor to protect the tank against improvised explosive devices. The tank will be capable of night combat operations, surveillance and reconnaissance, and strategic mobility. It will have a third-generation transmission system, integrated fire-control system with laser finders, battlefield management system and mine-detection system.

The FMBT project is a follow-up of the Indian-built Arjun main battle tank project, which started in 1973, though the tank has yet to be adopted by the Army for combat.

http://defensenews.com/story.php?i=5173869&c=ASI&s=LAN

 

[ace009]

Russians don't have a tactical laser that will fit on a tank. No one does... They will sell all the Arena you are willing to buy, even ToT can be had for the right price. Secret is out, no one wants it.



France is building the world's most powerful laser 2012.



How will you mount a 50kw laser on a tank? Can't be done in this generation.

Here's what the US has already achieved ...

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2009/03/military-laser/

 

[ace009]

So what if US does not have high power laser as active defensive suit. it is not compulsory that US will always make a the latest equipment in the defense technology field. US is not anyone`s godfather that a nation has to take permission from him to make new weapons. So please dont give these excuses that if US doesnt have something then it means that India can never develop that tach.

This kind of comment is based more on patriotic zeal and lack of understanding of technology capabilities. The top 20 laboratories in the world for Laser research are in the USA. The top 10 companies in Laser technology are based in the USA. The best scientists, engineers and technicians are based in the USA. Those who have not seen the technology base in the USA cannot understand the sheer size, effectiveness and innovation that goes on in the US. Military technology wise, no other country (or combination of countries even) come even close to the US.
If you think that India can leapfrog ahead of this USA Technology Juggernaut in Laser technology of all things, then you are living in fools paradise.

 

[gogbot]

Indian MoD Reports Steps Toward New Tank


NEW DELHI - Requirements for the Indian Army's Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) have been finalized, the Defence Ministry here announced Dec. 6, and the tank will be developed by the government's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) by 2020.

The Army has completed its Preliminary Staff Qualitative Requirement for the tank, according to the ministry's official statement. The DRDO is carrying out FMBT feasibility studies. Defence Minister A.K. Antony told the Indian parliament of these developments Dec. 6, the statement said.


Sources in the Indian Army said the proposed tank will be in the 40-metric-tons category and will be mounted with a 125mm gun. Six prototypes will be developed by 2020 before the FMBT enters bulk production.

The tank will be difficult to detect by enemy radar, according to the Army's requirements.

Other advanced features will include capability to fire kinetic weapons and missiles, an active protection system, and hybrid armor to protect the tank against improvised explosive devices. The tank will be capable of night combat operations, surveillance and reconnaissance, and strategic mobility. It will have a third-generation transmission system, integrated fire-control system with laser finders, battlefield management system and mine-detection system.

The FMBT project is a follow-up of the Indian-built Arjun main battle tank project, which started in 1973, though the tank has yet to be adopted by the Army for combat.

http://defensenews.com/story.php?i=5173869&c=ASI&s=LAN

This report seems a lot more grounded in reality.

But they do ask for low observable and light weight.
Difficult but should be possible. We already have the Hybrid Armour.

Active protection system will be an issue , probably bring in Israel on that one.

I am still not sure about the whole laser defense thing though , even if they miniaturize it enough , i don't think it would work fast enough , it would also have power issue's.
One more issue is that when you detonate something with a laser the explosion still travel's in the direction of the projectile leaving the tank perceptible to shrapnel , and i would assume kinetic warheads also may defeat the system.
My best guess is they would need something like a two tiered defense , taking out missiles at a long range with the laser(is possible), using Something like the Israile trophy system for tank rounds and RPG's

I don't know what they mean by a mine detection system however. Is that feasible ?

 

[sayareakd]

This report seems a lot more grounded in reality.

But they do ask for low observable and light weight.
Difficult but should be possible. We already have the Hybrid Armour.

Active protection system will be an issue , probably bring in Israel on that one.

I am still not sure about the whole laser defense thing though , even if they miniaturize it enough , i don't think it would work fast enough , it would also have power issue's.
One more issue is that when you detonate something with a laser the explosion still travel's in the direction of the projectile leaving the tank perceptible to shrapnel , and i would assume kinetic warheads also may defeat the system.
My best guess is they would need something like a two tiered defense , taking out missiles at a long range with the laser(is possible), using Something like the Israile trophy system for tank rounds and RPG's

I don't know what they mean by a mine detection system however. Is that feasible ?

Brother let me say this if Russian or Western countries make this FMBT, some people will jump with joy, if DRDO/OFB makes this then they will say it needs to go to moon on its own and fight the battles their.

It is outrageous those guys just copy post, Jane defence for the dream tank.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

In my view FMBT is not neeeded, Arjun MK-1 can be updated:

Addon Armour can be applied as done with LEOA4 upgrade..

120 smooth-bore can be installed..

New 1500hp engine can be Installed..

Over all Engine, Firepower and Armour all can upgraded..
Besides it doesn't make sense to reduce Armour where other countries are add more Armour..

 

[sayareakd]

Kunal if they want light weight tank they should have asked for "drive by wire tech" which is similar to fly by wire develop for LCA, that way only two operator for the tank would have been needed driver and commander. With auto loader no need for gunner and loader. With turret less design and engine in front will give adequate protection to crew. Not to forget remote weapon station for LMG and rockets and even laser.

 

[chex3009]

(NSI News Source Info) TORONTO, Canada - August 20, 2010: India has begun working on its next generation battle tank. Called the FMBT (Future Main Battle Tank), this vehicle aims to build on the success of the last Indian designed tank, the Arjun. This worries many Indian taxpayers, and soldiers. That's because the government recently ordered another 124 Arjuns. That came about because recent competitive tests between the Indian designed Arjun and Russian T-90 tank resulted in an unexpected victory by the Arjun. The Indian Army was compelled (by pro-Arjun politicians) to conduct a field test between the domestically designed (and largely rejected) Arjun tank, and the Russian T-90 (now considered the army's primary tank). Fourteen of each tank were used, and the results were classified. But journalists had no trouble getting unofficial reports that the Arjun managed to best the T-90 in tests of mobility, endurance and gunnery.
This was unusual because, until now, the Arjun was considered an expensive and embarrassing failure. Development of the Arjun began in the 1980s, and until four years ago, the army had received only five of them, for evaluation purposes. The evaluation did not go well. Originally, the Arjun was to have replaced thousands of Russian tanks, but after so many delays, the army only reluctantly accepted 128 Arjuns (equipping the 140th Armored Brigade). The new test reports resulted in renewed pressure on the army to buy more Arjuns. This pitted the Defense Ministry weapons development and procurement bureaucrats against the generals. The bureaucrats won this one. But the battle continues. That's because the recent tests assume that the Arjun has really fixed all the problems it was having with its electronics. In this case, it was the fire control system. But Arjun has also had problems with its engine, and that fact that its size and weight prevents it from being used with current tank transporters. Thus the FMBT is to be lighter (50 tons) and based on what works in the Arjun and other modern tanks. The FMBT is expected to replace older Russian tanks.
Meanwhile, last year, an Indian factory delivered the first ten (of a thousand) T-90 tanks to the Indian Army. The Russian designed armored vehicles are being built in India under license. Many of the components are Indian made, and some of the electronics are imported from Western suppliers. The Indian-made T-90s cost about $3 million each. India has already bought 700 Russian made T-90 tanks, at a cost of $3.5 million each. The FMBT is expected to cost over $5 million each. The high price is due to a lot of high tech. This includes an active defense system to defeat anti-tank missiles, a much more powerful engine, lots of electronics and a hermetically sealed crew department to provide protection against chemical weapons and radiation. All this stuff is tricky to develop, just the sort of thing DRDO excels as screwing up. This is mostly the fault of the DRDO bureaucrats, who are not very good at using all the technical and manufacturing talent India has.
Four years ago, India adopted the Russian T-90 as its new main battle tank. By 2020, India will have 2,000 upgraded T-72s, over 1,500 T-90s, and few hundred other tanks (including a few Arjuns). This will be the most powerful armored force in Eurasia, unless China moves ahead with upgrades to its tank force. The border between China and India is high in the Himalayan mountains, which is not good tank country. India's tank force is mainly for use against Pakistan.
The T-90 is a highly evolved T-72. Originally, the T-90 was done as a fall-back design. The T-80 was supposed to be the successor to the T-72. But like the T-62 and T-64 before it, the T-80 didn't quite work out as planned. So the T-72, with a much improved turret and all manner of gadgets, was trotted out as the T-90. Weighting 47 tons, it's 23 feet long, 11 feet wide and 7.5 feet high. Same package, better contents. And with well trained crews, it can be deadly. The Arjun is a larger vehicle (59 tons, 34.9 feet long and 12.7 feet wide).
The FMBT will probably be more similar in size to the T-90. Indian armor experts, both military and civilian, are hoping the FMBT is based more on the T-90 than the Arjun. But the most worrisome aspect of the FMBT project is DRDO (Defense R&D Organization), which also developed Arjun. It's feared that the DRDO wonks have not learned from the many errors made with the Arjun. Journalists are digging to find out how legitimate the field tests between the T-90 and Arjun were. It's feared the competition was fixed, something that is not unknown in Indian defense matters. While military procurement is political in all countries, India has had more than its share of problems here. The hope is that the FMBT will not be another DRDO disaster.

 

[p2prada]

In my view FMBT is not neeeded, Arjun MK-1 can be updated:

Addon Armour can be applied as done with LEOA4 upgrade..

120 smooth-bore can be installed..

New 1500hp engine can be Installed..

Over all Engine, Firepower and Armour all can upgraded..
Besides it doesn't make sense to reduce Armour where other countries are add more Armour..

In all our discussions with you, ppgj and myself. I was always saying modern armies are moving towards smaller and more efficient tanks, similar to what Russia has always practised. This is not going to change.

The 40 Ton tank is needed. The US is going for 40 tons tanks too and Russia has always been operating 40 tons tanks. This time we will go for smaller 2 man crews.

Armour isn't the end all of tank protection. Firepower is increasing way too much for hit survival techniques. Hit avoidance is the mantra.

Arjun only exists as a test bed now to develop newer technologies. The Arjun Mk2 will also be ditched for the new tank. Also, a 40 tons tank means there will be no major change in doctrine since it is not much different from the T series.

The Soviets had always gotten their priorities right on what was required and what was not. The technology of the time did not allow them to successfully execute their techniques. Arena is an example of such an attempt.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

In all our discussions with you, ppgj and myself. I was always saying modern armies are moving towards smaller and more efficient tanks, similar to what Russia has always practised. This is not going to change.

Did Styker Replaced M1 ?
Slat Armour and Era are not answer to repeated anti-tank attacks and 8-14KG IEDs

The 40 Ton tank is needed. The US is going for 40 tons tanks too and Russia has always been operating 40 tons tanks. This time we will go for smaller 2 man crews.

Only prototypes..
Btw M1 got heaver Uranium depleted Armour on front..

Hit avoidance is the mantra.

How u r going to take out a enemy tank without airsupport/ATGM on open field?

Arjun only exists as a test bed now to develop newer technologies. The Arjun Mk2 will also be ditched for the new tank. Also, a 40 tons tank means there will be no major change in doctrine since it is not much different from the T series.

Arjun MK1 is no test bed..
Arjun is a matured system for operational use..
Arjun MK-1 is way better than T - types of today..

IA lack foresight..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Btw, MK-2 is more a test bed for new technology like hardkill system equipped with lasers, Lighter Armour with slat Armour..
This all are new systems, I dont know how laser tech will cope up with Indian moisture and heat..
How lighter Armour can take modern 120mm Rounds..
In the end I may agree that in future IA might ditch MK-2 and buy foreign tanks ( Western )

 

[san]

The Soviets had always gotten their priorities right on what was required and what was not. The technology of the time did not allow them to successfully execute their techniques. Arena is an example of such an attempt.[/QUOTE]
How can we campare ourself with USSR. USSR had approx 40,000 tanks against 10,000 NATO tanks. We have 4,000 tanks against pakistan's 3,000 tanks. USSR can manufacture 5,000 tanks per year and we 10 tanks (example: T90).
Chines T99s are 58 tonns category and Pakis going to rename it with Al-khalid III /IV etc. and will induct in large numbers onwards from 2015. I am 100% sure that IA will change the GSEQ for a 60 tonn FMBT in 2015.
Also there is no way Russian tanks are efficient. For an efficient tank the turret shall not blown away and fly for 100 meters when hit. Also pls donot forget about the poor iraqis in gulf war I and the russians in Checnya dying in great, efficient soviet tanks.

IA seems to have little vision and donot have flexibility to adapt new technology. Also corruption and egoistic mentallity blocking itself

 

[Patriot]

I don't know what they mean by a mine detection system however. Is that feasible ?

As per available details of the technology ; probably mine detection system may comprise of UAV equipped with Minefield Detection System (ASTAMIDS) http://defense-update.com/products/a/07122010_astamids.html

 

[p2prada]

Did Styker Replaced M1 ?
Slat Armour and Era are not answer to repeated anti-tank attacks and 8-14KG IEDs

Stryker has nothing to do with new generation MBTs like the American 40 tons tank that we already have seen a video about.

Electronics may form a part of the answer. The new generation MBTs will simply be incomparable to the M1A2 or Leopard or the Arjun. And that has been voiced by the army with this statement;

the Army wants its futuristic tank to be lighter and more capable than that of the present ones in its inventory

"Lighter" for obvious reasons while "capable" includes the ability to fight off IEDs and multiple anti-tank rounds.

Only prototypes..

PAKFA is a prototype too. That does not disprove the science involved. These things take time. BTW, The Russians do have 40 ton tanks. So those are not prototypes.

Btw M1 got heaver Uranium depleted Armour on front..

Dunno if it has anything to do with our discussion. We don't know if the new American MBT has DU armour as well, or they came up with something better.

How u r going to take out a enemy tank without airsupport/ATGM on open field?

You have to elaborate your point. The statement is too vague.

Arjun MK1 is no test bed..
Arjun is a matured system for operational use..

It is our first tank and it a 100% test bed for all our indigenous technologies, to which I must add, not much of it is involved. Engine, Transmission, Tracks, FCS, 90% of the Electronics etc are all imported. It is barely matured, heck we cannot even export it if we wanted to; too many critical foreign parts.

Arjun MK-1 is way better than T - types of today..

Nothing to do with the FMBT. Saying M1A is better than the Patton does not take away the fact that a newer more sophisticated tank compared to M1 is required.

Btw, MK-2 is more a test bed for new technology like hardkill system equipped with lasers, Lighter Armour with slat Armour..

Yes. While the Mk1 handles critical indigenous equipment, the Mk2 will be a test bed for newer technologies which may be incorporated into the FMBT, perhaps a decent amount of automation will be involved, like making the turret automated.

How lighter Armour can take modern 120mm Rounds..

The world is changing. Earlier armour was defined by heavy and light, in the future it will be defined by weak and strong. So, a lighter armour may not mean weaker armour. However it does not necessarily mean weight no longer plays a part.

Also, the lightness of the tank will have less to do with strength of the armour and more to do with reduction of parts and increased automation. Newer materials and manufacturing processes would mean decreased weight of already existing equipment and this includes weight of the engine, guns, ammo etc.

In the end I may agree that in future IA might ditch MK-2 and buy foreign tanks ( Western )

Don't think so. If we get most of the critical technologies like Engines, Tracks, Guns(and FCS) and newer manufacturing technologies right on the Arjun, then the FMBT will be our own product. Your resentment of the army's decisions has only been because the Arjun failed to produce required results and your disbelief at its failure as a viable tank development. Your opinion regarding their lack of foresight has not affected their priorities.

 

[p2prada]

How can we campare ourself with USSR. USSR had approx 40,000 tanks against 10,000 NATO tanks. We have 4,000 tanks against pakistan's 3,000 tanks. USSR can manufacture 5,000 tanks per year and we 10 tanks (example: T90).

My statement has nothing to do with tank strength and numbers manufactured. It is more to do with the design philosophy of tanks for modern tank doctrines. The USSR got the concept right, but managed their best with the technology of the time.

The US is currently trying to replicate whatever the USSR has done until now, only with newer technologies.
Google Future Combat Systems and compare with the old Soviet/Russian Airborne Corps.

I am 100% sure that IA will change the GSEQ for a 60 tonn FMBT in 2015.

I hardly doubt it.

IA seems to have little vision and donot have flexibility to adapt new technology. Also corruption and egoistic mentallity blocking itself

Then they cannot protect your country as they have been doing till now.

How Stupid. They don't choose the tank you want them to choose and you attack their morality.

 

[gogbot]

Brother let me say this if Russian or Western countries make this FMBT, some people will jump with joy, if DRDO/OFB makes this then they will say it needs to go to moon on its own and fight the battles their.

It is outrageous those guys just copy post, Jane defence for the dream tank.

You may want to look at it that way,

But all i see is another potential reason
to keep the Arjun of the field. They have yet to even place an order of 500.
Keep DRDO busy on a new tank due expected 10 years from now.
Asking for impossible requirements that most likely will be mired in delays if not result in failure
A new reason to for the Army to turn around and buy a new tank 15 years from now because the FMBT did not have all the promised features.

DRDO has yet to even conduct the feasibility study on this tank , as of now all the requirements are is an Army pipe dream. Or an elaborate plot to keep foreign tanks in and indigenous tanks chasing a carrot that just seems to keep get further away.

And my point about the laser system simply being flawed in design still stands.
It is not just impracticable but i find improbable that laser active protection system can be built that works. So far lasers have been used to burn field tanks , cook circuits and ignite fuel tanks. Since we can't vaporize incoming projectiles.
Momentum of any explosion will still carry forward toward the tank making it vulnerable at close ranges.

 

[p2prada]

And my point about the laser system simply being flawed in design still stands.
It is not just impracticable but i find improbable that laser active protection system can be built that works. So far lasers have been used to burn field tanks , cook circuits and ignite fuel tanks. Since we can't vaporize incoming projectiles.
Momentum of any explosion will still carry forward toward the tank making it vulnerable at close ranges.

Perhaps the Laser's main goal is to fry the missiles seeker in order to make the missile(LAHAT) lose its trajectory and therefore deflect the missile from its path towards the tank. Even a couple of centimetres off and the missile will simply explode harmlessly next to the tank. This certainly is possible, killing top attack munitions will be really difficult. This principle cannot be used on Tank shells though.

I doubt the laser will take out the missile with projectile and all like conventional APS do. Add a conventional APS system with the laser system and we have a very high degree of protection.