Indians, how do you view US?

[aerokan]

Were the Us under any obligation to supply us the wheat. Remember as per the terms the payment was made in INR with the provision that the money would not be sent back to the US. Who would agree with such terms.

For a moment just turn the table around to Indo Nepal relationship. you will find the same grouse that the Nepalis have with India, the way we have with the US, despite India pumping so much money and aid to Nepal. We twisted their arms in 80s under Rajiv Gandhi for very flimsy reasons. So does it make India morally superior-- no we were just following our National Interest.

US was not under any obligation. People of India asked to get rid of the food aid from US as well.. It was a decision of the govt to even ask despite opposition.

"What particularly irked the Americans was the Indian applause for a much smaller shipment of the Soviet wheat that had arrived much earlier"

Russians did sent the wheat shipment at the earliest even though it was small which they can send us. That's what one can call aid or friendship or courtesy or humanitarian or whatever, but certainly not 'screwing'. US sent the excess food supplies after a long long time.. That's the difference people would not fail to notice.

One of the successive PM's did say that instead of asking for aid, he asked the nation to live by cutting one meal a day so that everyone can have food. And the nation gladly followed.

If only feeding the entire nation was the priority, then India would have been chamcha of US a long time back. If only saving soldiers or saving the land is the reason, we would have surrendered before China in 1962 war. But there are somethings we don't do even if we have to face hardships. That's the principle on which India lives.

 

[Ray]

Were the Us under any obligation to supply us the wheat. Remember as per the terms the payment was made in INR with the provision that the money would not be sent back to the US. Who would agree with such terms.

Russians also got paid in INR.

Neither the US nor USSR repatriated the money since it was used to 'good use' by them - buying people who matter, subverting the economy, gathering intelligence from 'sources' and so on and so forth.

None were doing any favour actually.

And the US surreptitiously did Biological Warfare on India too with the wheat. It also had Parthenium or 'Congress Grass' mixed with the food aid.

Parthenium hysterophorus is a noxious weed in America, Asia, Africa and Australia. This weed is considered to be a cause of allergic respiratory problems, contact dermatitis, mutagenicity in human and livestock. Crop production is drastically reduced owing to its allelopathy.

 

[sob]

@Ray Sir,

That is precisely my point. In real life nobody is out there to do any favour. Nation's self interest triumphs over anything else.

We Indians have to get out of this race of The Most Favourite Nation in the world award.

 

[pmaitra]

@Ray Sir,

That is precisely my point. In real life nobody is out there to do any favour. Nation's self interest triumphs over anything else.

We Indians have to get out of this race of The Most Favourite Nation in the world award.

If I see this post below, I see you are veering towards picking your own "Most Favourite Nation in the world award." Nothing wrong with it.

For a nation it's self interests should matter more than trying to win a popularity contest around the world. We Indians are emotional fools.

That we are. No wonder we forget 1971 but remember 1962.

Russians have been screwing us over the last 4 decades on arms purchases but still we are ready to consider them our best friend/staunch ally.

We conveniently forget the Russian attitude during 1962 when Brother came before friend.

We should not forget the Russian attitude during 1962 when Brother came before friend.
We should not forget the US attitude during 1971 when dictatorship came before democracy.

So that evens it out.

Now we have a clean slate. Let's see.

Who started the menace of terrorism in South Asia of which Indians have been victims?
Who protects the source of Wahhabi funding?
Who delayed India's quest for a cryogenic engine?
Who planned to setup a military base right next to Tamil Nadu?

Really, who has been screwing India over for the past decades?

We also conveniently forget that when we were in crisis then it was only the US which came forward in terms of PL 480 and fed the entire nation.

Already countered.

 

[sob]

My stance is very clear.

Regarding PL 480 interesting info came out which I admit I was not aware. But then no proof to support it was intentional from US to supply wheat infected with Congress Grass.

The whole point is that this was becoming a US bashing thread while we would like to maintain a moral superiority even when we have been recipient of huge US aid either directly or through agencies like IMF/World Bank.

And regarding the points you have listed, it is a simple case of National Interest. Are they under any obligation to humour us and in the same vein during the cold war we were technically Non Aligned but were firmly in the Russian camp. Remember the famous Castro- Indira Gandhi hug during the summit in Delhi.

 

[Ray]

My stance is very clear.

Regarding PL 480 interesting info came out which I admit I was not aware. But then no proof to support it was intentional from US to supply wheat infected with Congress Grass.

May read
THE BIOWEAPONS THREAT:
AN INDIAN PERSPECTIVE
http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/050409_chari_version.pdf

see the beginning of Page 12 and PL 480 wheat.

I think you were not born when the supply came or too young. So, you are not aware of the hullabaloo that was there on the same.

 

[Peter]

We should not forget the Russian attitude during 1962 when Brother came before friend.
We should not forget the US attitude during 1971 when dictatorship came before democracy.

So that evens it out.

Now we have a clean slate. Let's see.

Who started the menace of terrorism in South Asia of which Indians have been victims?
Who protects the source of Wahhabi funding?
Who delayed India's quest for a cryogenic engine?
Who planned to setup a military base right next to Tamil Nadu?

Really, who has been screwing India over for the past decades?


Already countered.

pmaitra sir,

Which country has one of the largest Indian immigrant population?

Which country has changed the lives of about 3 million Indians?

Where was the father of Green revolution born?

Which country has the greatest contribution in the field of computer science/technology?

Which country warned the British of dire consequences if it kept its colonies after WWII?

Which country did Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar and Venkatraman Ramakrishnan go to for their research?

Which country gives one of the largest amount of foreign aid to India?
(I know some people will quote President Pranab Mukherji and say we do no need that foreign aid. However I still do not understand why we do not have "Lawndawn" roads in Kolkata? After all if we have enough money and prestige to reject foreign aid then why are the roads of Sakherbajaar in such abysmal condition?)

So you see the slate has again been cleared. It can be filled and cleared yet again.

The point is that both US and Russia have their own share of positives and negatives. None of them are saints or as we Bengalis say "Dhoya tulsi pata". However the fact is that USA is the sole superpower of the world. India must strive to reach that position and to do that it must take help and advice from both US and Russia.

 

[sob]

May read
THE BIOWEAPONS THREAT:
AN INDIAN PERSPECTIVE
http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/050409_chari_version.pdf

see the beginning of Page 12 and PL 480 wheat.

I think you were not born when the supply came or too young. So, you are not aware of the hullabaloo that was there on the same.

Sir, thank you for this study. You are correct I was born in 1970 so this was before my time. But this paper also does not state that this Congress Grass was introduced knowingly into India.

 

[HMS Astute]

Just wait. Soon our resident "pro-America" sycophants, like @asianobserve, and @HMS Astute, will launch their tirades on you, in the defence of the US government that violates the US Constitution on a daily basis.

i am not pro american/british government. i have visited america/canada several times. they are indeed great countries and i like them and their people.

 

[ezsasa]

I read somewhere that sometime after Independence Nehru and Jinnah(separately of course) visited U.S, The U.S president being a good host they were both asked the same question "What can we do for you?" i believe Jinnah asked for "Military aid , Planes, weapons" Nehru asked for "Educational aid,IIT's , and Green revolution technology". I am not sure if this story is true. However it is true that India's initial IIT's were created with the help of the americans and even till early 70's american professors used to teach here. and i believe any who knows this fact will appreciate the help provided by americans during the founding years.

Then First nuclear test happened, Split between U.S and India starts. India was forced to move towards russia. Second pivotal movement in my opinion was Invasion of afghanistan by the russians. Americans were forced to be dependant on pakistan and thereby further alienating India further. Can't blame the americans for this, since they were looking after their intrests. And further we are still feeling the ripple effects of russian invasion of afghanistan.

Even in my most neutral view India and America can be trusty pals only after Pakistan is pushed completely to chinese side with no links to the americans. It is difficult to predict at this point which way the dice will roll.

America does not like India's neutral or opposing stand on many of the issues and India does not like conditional friendship clauses from america. They better start talking with each other because genuine trust takes decades to form in case of countries.

The earlier the better.

 

[pmaitra]

pmaitra sir,

Which country has one of the largest Indian immigrant population?

Which country has changed the lives of about 3 million Indians?

Where was the father of Green revolution born?

Which country has the greatest contribution in the field of computer science/technology?

Which country warned the British of dire consequences if it kept its colonies after WWII?

Which country did Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar and Venkatraman Ramakrishnan go to for their research?

Which country gives one of the largest amount of foreign aid to India?
(I know some people will quote President Pranab Mukherji and say we do no need that foreign aid. However I still do not understand why we do not have "Lawndawn" roads in Kolkata? After all if we have enough money and prestige to reject foreign aid then why are the roads of Sakherbajaar in such abysmal condition?)

So you see the slate has again been cleared. It can be filled and cleared yet again.

The point is that both US and Russia have their own share of positives and negatives. None of them are saints or as we Bengalis say "Dhoya tulsi pata". However the fact is that USA is the sole superpower of the world. India must strive to reach that position and to do that it must take help and advice from both US and Russia.

No, I don't see the slate being cleared. The things you have written do not justify the more than 54,000 (fifty-four thousand) lives lost. This is merely, one example.

The slate is not cleared. It is smeared with blood of Indians.

I did not follow the reference to Loudon Street.

 

[pmaitra]

i am not pro american/british government. i have visited america/canada several times. they are indeed great countries and i like them and their people.

I agree. The people are nice. The government, on the other hand, no quite.

 

[HMS Astute]

I agree. The people are nice. The government, on the other hand, no quite.

you're mistaken if you think i am in favour of the current government here or in the states. in the uk, the current government is well known for being out of touch with the reality. they are always criticised and labelled as a bunch of oxford graduated posh guys (or arrogant twats, excuse my french) with fantasy ideas who don't know anything about the reality situation of average people in the country. whenever the prime minister goes to the continent, one thing he never fails to accomplish is to piss off all the eu bureaucrats and french ministers. he makes the country looks like a proper isolated black sheep in the european family or 51st state of course. i personally don't like his so called "big society" which imo is just utter bullocks. the only ones that have gained power and become wealthier are the greedy bastards from the city of london financial banking sectors and their elite associates. the only thing that this current government is doing well is their sturdy and well organized structure for the economy which helped tackled many problems (unemployment, deficit, housing etc) during the financial crisis. on the other hand, you have got obama who does not seem to know what he's doing when it comes to foreign affairs.

 

[pmaitra]

@HMS Astute,

I apologize if I misunderstood.

You also misunderstood me.

I respect George Washington, the man who waged war against how own government, because it was tyrannical. I see the pro-Russia militia doing the same thing today.

I respect the US Constitution.

I just find this lies coming out of Washington DC, this invading countries and slaughtering people, this hate mongering, utterly outrageous.

The US used to be a great country, as it was founded on noble principles, but today, it is devoid of principle, and has blood of innocents on its hands.

 

[Ray]

Sir, thank you for this study. You are correct I was born in 1970 so this was before my time. But this paper also does not state that this Congress Grass was introduced knowingly into India.

It was so discussed when it happened.

Also study US Biowarfare campaigns.

I have written a paper on it and it has been published in our professional magazine.

 

[Jatt.Hindustan]

Loog term, as in longer than even Han or euros think; personal feeling is cow dung has more value than melech.

Shorter term than 5 10,000 years is just political expediency.

 

[Bangalorean]

What is the question? If it is, "what is your opinion on how US-India relations should be", I would say we should maintain a safe distance and a strictly transactional relationship. No need to jump into the NATO camp or anything. Proceed very cautiously, even when the deal "seems" to be beneficial for India.

If it is, "what is your opinion of the US as a country" - the answer is very simple in my view. It is the greatest nation in the history of mankind. Never before has any nation exerted this much power - militarily, economically as well as culturally - over the entire explored "world".

 

[Jatt.Hindustan]

What is the question? If it is, "what is your opinion on how US-India relations should be", I would say we should maintain a safe distance and a strictly transactional relationship. No need to jump into the NATO camp or anything. Proceed very cautiously, even when the deal "seems" to be beneficial for India.

If it is, "what is your opinion of the US as a country" - the answer is very simple in my view. It is the greatest nation in the history of mankind. Never before has any nation exerted this much power - militarily, economically as well as culturally - over the entire explored "world".

Then why are you in bangalore? I will get you sponser if you admit Hindu culture is supreme.

 

[Bangalorean]

Then why are you in bangalore? I will get you sponser if you admit Hindu culture is supreme.

I am in Bangalore because I love being in India. I wouldn't relocate to the West for anything, though if I wanted to, I could do it within a week. I am in a consulting job, which involves frequent travels to various client sites worldwide - US, Europe, East Asia, etc. My travels are usually for 3-4 weeks, then I'm back for a month or so, and then on my way again. Each time I travel, I realize that I belong here, this is where I want to be. I don't want to live an anonymous life in some Western city. And there are practical reasons also. Here is an old post I made:

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ndia-how-much-salary-expect-2.html#post967919

Those who still convert "Dalllarrrs" to rupees and ogle at the converted salaries, are fools. Our media morons keep bringing out articles like "IIM grad lands 1.2 crore package". The morons mention later in the article, that the job is based out of San Francisco or Seattle!

In general, divide the final salary by 4 to get the real picture, which will take Purchasing Power Parity into account. A package of "1.2 crore" actually comes to Rs. 30 lakh per annum, if you take purchasing power parity into account. Of course, that isn't too bad either. But the point is, this idiocy of direct currency conversion needs to stop.

The problems with living in India are w.r.t. bad public infrastructure. That's it. In every other field, India gives you a much superior quality of life. Top-notch healthcare at extremely cheap rates. Domestic helps and a variety of people to do odd jobs. Family support structure, familiarity, constantly growing economy with increasing opportunities, etc.

In a nutshell, I live a far better life here than I would in the West.

So, your talk of "sponsoring" me just makes me crack up. You come from a place called Mahilpur which is the NRI hub of Punjab, so I don't blame you for assuming that everyone is dying to run to the West at the drop of a hat. Think again buddy - if I wanted to go, I could settle there within a week. All I need to do is send an email.

 

[Jatt.Hindustan]

I am in Bangalore because I love being in India. I wouldn't relocate to the West for anything, though if I wanted to, I could do it within a week. I am in a consulting job, which involves frequent travels to various client sites worldwide - US, Europe, East Asia, etc. My travels are usually for 3-4 weeks, then I'm back for a month or so, and then on my way again. Each time I travel, I realize that I belong here, this is where I want to be. I don't want to live an anonymous life in some Western city. And there are practical reasons also. Here is an old post I made:

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ndia-how-much-salary-expect-2.html#post967919



In a nutshell, I live a far better life here than I would in the West.

So, your talk of "sponsoring" me just makes me crack up. You come from a place called Mahilpur which is the NRI hub of Punjab, so I don't blame you for assuming that everyone is dying to run to the West at the drop of a hat. Think again buddy - if I wanted to go, I could settle there within a week. All I need to do is send an email.

NRI Hub is Patiala, Sahibzada Ajit Singh Nagar & Chandigarh.

I just don't want people like you in my India, but w.e demographics will take care of you.

Culturally you are no different than a coconut sipping mallu.